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Old 20th February 2013, 00:59   #91
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

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@akshay1234 @n.devdath I wish to beware the fellow bhpians " Please dont compare X1 and the fortuner." I owned both of them for a good time and i realized how different they are. Roughly the ownership cost of X1 was Rs 35/km whereas the Toyota workhorse costed me Rs 15/km. This includes running costs , insurance , maintenence, depriciation etc. This huge difference of running cost should act as an eyeopener to my friends who are getting too carried away by the brand BMW entry level cars.
I had my X1 with BMW secure and maintenence pack but they had lots of surprises in store for me during the ownership, a simple yet classic example being asked to pay for the car wash on the first service itself beyond asking to pay for alignment and balancing which were not asked for/informed beforehand.
Some knowlegeable guys have been warning about falling into this trap on other threads too.
It might be hard to believe but I got more attention, respect and satisfaction from the Toyota after sales service as compared to the arrogant BMW guys.
I am no miser but paying 800 bucks to BMW for an upper body wash pinched me when i had paid 2 lakhs INR for the maintenence pack for 90k kms.
I drove the X1 for initial 7k kms with a manufacturing defect where the car sharply steered to the left on leaving the steering wheel until one day when one of the experiments worked for the car.
I do not wish to foul mouth more about the brand i was in love with but feel free to PM me to know more if you count every penny before spending and thinking of buying a BMW.
Why don't you post it here instead of asking poople to PM you?

Well the BMW is going to depreciate more, since it does cost more. The Fortuner on the other hand is an exception to all the other cars above 20l. It has great resale value and hardly seems to depreciate.

Had you protested about paying for a wash they would have done it for free. I've not been charged for a normal wash for my BMW. Also since you say you did spend 2l on the service package and secure, did you not bother you ask for the booklets of information? There is a booklet for secure, and one for BSI which has all the terms and conditions. You would think most people would want to read something like that before plonking down 2l+, but surprisingly many don't. Its clearly mentioned things like alignment and balancing are not included in BSI.

As for the a.s.s treatment, you are buying the cheapest car of one brand while you are buying one of the premium cars of another, how did you expect them to treat you?

The car pulling to the left was a problem with the tyres if I'm not wrong? Member suman had posted about it in his thread. I think the tyres or whatever necessary parts needed to fix the problem would have been done free of charge?

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but I think you are nitpicking. Its been shouted out from rooftops that the ownership of a Toyota are the BMW are going to be different (i.e the BMW is going to be more expensive and not as trouble free). If you expect a BMW to be like a Toyota you shouldn't have bought the BMW.
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Old 20th February 2013, 08:59   #92
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

@akshay1234 I bought it because i could afford one. I could afford the expenses but not so many surprises. Everything associated with the car but for the drive and safety were below my expectations, a normal car buyer.

I asked for PM from the weak hearted. i do not wish to spoil the purchase of all and be referred as nitpicking / crying foul. Mine maybe one odd case but that does not make it less important to be heard of.

Before i reply i shall inform that my Fortuner has run a lakh km and the x1 was with us for 40k kms before the poor soul departed in mid of 2012.
The booklet of information is not voluntarily given, but an assurance that everything is included is surely provided. Most of the buyers, especially the first timers have a trust for the brand and possibly they are so overJOYed with their purchase that they miss asking for it.

I am requesting fellow bhpians to report if anybody got his car replaced by BMW when it had met a severe accident . The estimate of my BMW far exceeded the ex showroom + registration and i had been promised a replacement in such a scenario. I had to settle for a cash loss after 3 months of the accident. I shall write about this in detail for the forum.

If you request you wont be heard , if you shout they might. It takes around an hour at Bird Automotive Gurgaon to be attended to, and yes untill then they wont know which car have you driven in. yes ,I shouted at them and even i dint pay .

I agree the car pulling towards left was resolved free of cost but the numerous visits to the workshop and the long period they took to resolve it can shake the confidence on the brand of any buyer. I dont think the BMW should have continued the deliveries of the cars with this manufacturing defect when it was brought to their notice by almost every buyer in the initial batch. Your consolation that it was resolved for free may not satisfy every car lover.

You call it nitpicking , I call it shedding light on few of the grey areas. Premature inferences keeps very important prefiltered information reaching the forum.
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Old 20th February 2013, 09:50   #93
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

Its an odd sort of comparison this and not one that I would normally make. It would not, technically, other than for reasons of price and "show quotient" be in the common consideration set at all. Both have been bred for completely different purposes!

The BMW X1 purports to come from a lineage of thoroughbred race horses and the Fortuner, from a long and illustrious line of Workhorses with a smattering of Wild Mustang blood!

Unfortunately the BMW X1 is in reality actually bit of a "tainted" thoroughbred that has had all the fine qualities that its ancestors were famed for, 'completely bred out of it" because the breeders compromised on its vitamins and food supplements and fiddled so much with its genetic make up, that it came out as a bit of a throwback to the Equus, in comparison to its thoroughbred parents. One can almost imagine its long line of illustrious ancestors standing with their mouths agape, when the X1 was "birthed" into this world!

The Toyota Fortuner, however, soldiers on quietly, uncomplainingly, efficiently and solidly just like the thoroughbred work horses that it is descended from.

Perhaps not the best of allegories but it will simply have to do!
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Old 20th February 2013, 11:00   #94
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

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Originally Posted by .Albatross. View Post
@akshay1234 I bought it because i could afford one. I could afford the expenses but not so many surprises. Everything associated with the car but for the drive and safety were below my expectations, a normal car buyer.

I asked for PM from the weak hearted. i do not wish to spoil the purchase of all and be referred as nitpicking / crying foul. Mine maybe one odd case but that does not make it less important to be heard of.

Before i reply i shall inform that my Fortuner has run a lakh km and the x1 was with us for 40k kms before the poor soul departed in mid of 2012.
The booklet of information is not voluntarily given, but an assurance that everything is included is surely provided. Most of the buyers, especially the first timers have a trust for the brand and possibly they are so overJOYed with their purchase that they miss asking for it.

I am requesting fellow bhpians to report if anybody got his car replaced by BMW when it had met a severe accident . The estimate of my BMW far exceeded the ex showroom + registration and i had been promised a replacement in such a scenario. I had to settle for a cash loss after 3 months of the accident. I shall write about this in detail for the forum.

If you request you wont be heard , if you shout they might. It takes around an hour at Bird Automotive Gurgaon to be attended to, and yes untill then they wont know which car have you driven in. yes ,I shouted at them and even i dint pay .

I agree the car pulling towards left was resolved free of cost but the numerous visits to the workshop and the long period they took to resolve it can shake the confidence on the brand of any buyer. I dont think the BMW should have continued the deliveries of the cars with this manufacturing defect when it was brought to their notice by almost every buyer in the initial batch. Your consolation that it was resolved for free may not satisfy every car lover.

You call it nitpicking , I call it shedding light on few of the grey areas. Premature inferences keeps very important prefiltered information reaching the forum.
I don't think you are spoiling the purchase of anyones. Please do shed light on these grey areas, I think it would help more people rather than spoil their purchases.

That is what the BMW salespeople tell everyone, and many owners have been trying to point out in many places, the things which are not included in BSI, etc. Maybe its time to make a new thread on that. Salespeople are salespeople, I don't take their word for anything unless its given to me in writing. Had you been buying something like a Maruti, would you have not asked for some proof? This is not only BMW, I heard how someone walked in to a Merc dealer inquiring about the E63 AMG, and the person was recommended an E class cabriolet

If you are talking about car replacement under secure, that too is only in the first year of ownership. Again mentioned in the booklet. But anyway, do put up your experience soon.

It seems like Bird Auto is not the greatest dealer then, because over here I've never experienced anything like that. Yes they do take time for small jobs, but they are courteous at all times. Then again the luxury car market in India has become so big in the last few years, its not longer a big deal to own one of these. The sales people are now as good or bad as we see in any other showroom, as are the service people.

Besides the pulling to the left, was there any other problem with the car? The way I see it the other issues could have been avoided had you asked for the booklets of information and done some reading up before parting with your 2l. You would think that while spending larger amounts of cash, people would be more cautious (not directed at you, albatross). Even when Toyota had just introduced the Innova, was in 05 and 06? It had a huge problem where the cars would emit a lot of black smoke. It took them a few months to fix that too, with an ECU update if I'm not wrong. So no car manufacturer or car is perfect, it would be wrong to expect that. Though yes BMW seems to have left your disgruntled, I'm sure they could have handled many things better. Also one thing I've noticed is that if anything is not upto the mark, shoot off an email to BMW and see the way the dealer treats you the next time.
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Old 20th February 2013, 11:03   #95
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

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I don't think you are spoiling the purchase of anyones. Please do shed light on these grey areas, I think it would help more people rather than spoil their purchases.

Sorry for OT Akshay. I thought it would also help if the new thread you referred to can have the X1 stand against Q3.
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Old 20th February 2013, 11:57   #96
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

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As for the a.s.s treatment, you are buying the cheapest car of one brand while you are buying one of the premium cars of another, how did you expect them to treat you?
Do you really think like that Akshay, and cheapest or not, that car is still worth 35 to 40 odd laks, which is not chump change. I seriously believe that no dealership would have a customer perception based on what they drive, because what one brings to the dealership does not define who he is. And more over do you think the service guys who earn no more than 6 to 7 lakh PA TOPS!, think, Hey this guy is nothing, X1 hi to chala raha hai or Yeh to bhagwan hai kyunki Fortuner chala raha hai.
Whatever car he is buying, if the company deems it worthy to sell, they should also treat him with the utmost respect at Service. Something which I have found to be true.

Now coming back to the topic at hand as rightly said by others apart from the price point both cars are different in Scope and intent.

When our own decision was going on we also thoroughly checked out the X1 and found it too small for our needs, heck with me in the driver's seat, no one could sit behind.

It does lack on space but it is a great car to drive and it is a Bimmer. The runflat tires are a problem and do keep in mind that running costs are quite high compared to the Fortuner.

In regards to the Fortuner, it is the highest selling SUV in the country, it will hold its value and it is cheap as chips to maintain. The ride is not very comfortable and the 4 speed auto feels tired at higher revs, although you will get with 5 speed which should be better.

Do let us know how it goes and good luck.
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Old 20th February 2013, 12:06   #97
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

@akshay1234 It was for the promise of car replacement and trouble free settlement of claims where i agreed to pay a little above a lakh for the second year insurance from BMW whereas the ICICI platinum insurance plan for the 520d bought on the same date costed only 75k. I was always keen on buying peace of mind.

Mercedes salesperson tried a similar one on me too .I left an enquiry for SLK and its exhaust upgrades to be called back and offered a C63, that too pre owned.

Honestly its the respect for his time which anybody would value more than the diet coke cans /brewed coffee which Bird Auto serves while the customers wait to speak to the service staff.

I could not get my insurance policy papers for 5 months post policy renewal. Repeated requests resulted in promises with deadlines which were never adhered to. i dont think i should have even needed to ask for it.

They totally screwed up the invite they gave me to drive on the Buddha circuit. A scale model of X6 delivered to me a week later was too little too late to make up for the 5-6 hours I wasted one fine holiday morning.

BMW and possibly all other german brands have always been associated with safety security and pleasure of ownership. The alignment of the car for initial 7k kms was so unbelievably bad that i would not have considered driving a vehicle in that condition safe by any means.

Bird auto could not manage a rear bumper replacement for 15 days(it took a minor hit while parked) , released the car back to us after 4 days at their workshop and tried to use that as a reason for not honoring the total loss claim when the car met a serious accident 15 days later(this time the car had a frontal impact).

When it takes a month for an estimate for a car , can you imagine how much time would they take to repair it? All this while you are supposed to pay your EMIs , the car keeps depreciating and you get no replacement car. I had to settle the issue considering these reaons for whatever best i could manage.

My inference :BMW and its dealerships are too busy selling to attend to your needs these days.
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Old 20th February 2013, 12:14   #98
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

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Originally Posted by .Albatross. View Post
@akshay1234 @n.devdath I wish to beware the fellow bhpians " Please dont compare X1 and the fortuner." I owned both of them for a good time and i realized how different they are. Roughly the ownership cost of X1 was Rs 35/km whereas the Toyota workhorse costed me Rs 15/km. This includes running costs , insurance , maintenence, depriciation etc.
While Akshay has covered most points in detail, here are a few pointers that I want to highlight.

1. BMW is a premium brand, the world over while Toyotas, apart from the LC series and the Lexus, are workhorses.

2. Premium brands mean premium spares, expensive services and a lower resale but offer a psychological satisfaction of ownership that cannot be equated in monetary terms. While most of us might crib about the expenses involved, we would still love to have a BMW in our garage and drool on the Beemers on the streets. Period.

3. I, as an auto journo, have driven the 3, the 5, the 7 and the X1, X5 in detail and the X6 for short time and can confidently say that the kind of driving pleasure that they offer in their respective segments is simply amazing.
I do not want to deliberate on the other aspects.

4. I have accompanied friends to the BMW showrooms at Delhi and Bangalore for their PDIs, purchases and enquiries and can confidently say that the staff there do not conceal the service/upkeep costs involved if asked about it.

5. BSI by BMW simply makes it the best premium brand in the country today and its sales figures are ample proof of the same.

Comparing the X1 and the Fortuner in terms of the cost of ownership is like comparing owning a Laura to owning a Bolero. Doesn't really make sense.

The issues you have mentioned seem to be something which were of a one off nature but yes, I agree that BMW must have ensured your satisfaction. Do let me know if you need any help on this.
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Old 20th February 2013, 12:23   #99
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

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Do you really think like that Akshay, and cheapest or not, that car is still worth 35 to 40 odd laks, which is not chump change. I seriously believe that no dealership would have a customer perception based on what they drive, because what one brings to the dealership does not define who he is. And more over do you think the service guys who earn no more than 6 to 7 lakh PA TOPS!, think, Hey this guy is nothing, X1 hi to chala raha hai or Yeh to bhagwan hai kyunki Fortuner chala raha hai.
Whatever car he is buying, if the company deems it worthy to sell, they should also treat him with the utmost respect at Service. Something which I have found to be true.
Hey I don't believe in that, but I've seen it happening. Sure those guys make much less in a year than what the car is worth, but I've seen more than enough of people being treated differently depending on what car they drive in. Same goes for a Honda dealership too. But isn't it true anywhere? You spend more on a brand, and they treat you better. Same if you are regular at a restaurant, or club or something.

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Originally Posted by .Albatross. View Post
@akshay1234 It was for the promise of car replacement and trouble free settlement of claims where i agreed to pay a little above a lakh for the second year insurance from BMW whereas the ICICI platinum insurance plan for the 520d bought on the same date costed only 75k. I was always keen on buying peace of mind.

Mercedes salesperson tried a similar one on me too .I left an enquiry for SLK and its exhaust upgrades to be called back and offered a C63, that too pre owned.

Honestly its the respect for his time which anybody would value more than the diet coke cans /brewed coffee which Bird Auto serves while the customers wait to speak to the service staff.

I could not get my insurance policy papers for 5 months post policy renewal. Repeated requests resulted in promises with deadlines which were never adhered to. i dont think i should have even needed to ask for it.

They totally screwed up the invite they gave me to drive on the Buddha circuit. A scale model of X6 delivered to me a week later was too little too late to make up for the 5-6 hours I wasted one fine holiday morning.

BMW and possibly all other german brands have always been associated with safety security and pleasure of ownership. The alignment of the car for initial 7k kms was so unbelievably bad that i would not have considered driving a vehicle in that condition safe by any means.

Bird auto could not manage a rear bumper replacement for 15 days(it took a minor hit while parked) , released the car back to us after 4 days at their workshop and tried to use that as a reason for not honoring the total loss claim when the car met a serious accident 15 days later(this time the car had a frontal impact).

When it takes a month for an estimate for a car , can you imagine how much time would they take to repair it? All this while you are supposed to pay your EMIs , the car keeps depreciating and you get no replacement car. I had to settle the issue considering these reaons for whatever best i could manage.

My inference :BMW and its dealerships are too busy selling to attend to your needs these days.
Man, sure sounds like you have had a hell of a time with your dealership. It seems they have messed up your ownership of one of the most fun to drive crossovers below 40l.

Sounds very similar to how Skodas reputation was messed up by its incompetent dealers.

Yes of course in this case BMW too has to be blamed for letting such a dealership spoil their name. But I think you should still write a mail to BMW, for whatever its worth. Let them know what kind of a dealership Bird is.

Sorry you had to go through all this buddy, I mean I've heard about BMW dealers making small mistakes, etc but nothing of this sort.
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Old 20th February 2013, 12:30   #100
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

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Do you really think like that Akshay, and cheapest or not, that car is still worth 35 to 40 odd laks, which is not chump change. I seriously believe that no dealership would have a customer perception based on what they drive, because what one brings to the dealership does not define who he is. And more over do you think the service guys who earn no more than 6 to 7 lakh PA TOPS!, think, Hey this guy is nothing, X1 hi to chala raha hai or Yeh to bhagwan hai kyunki Fortuner chala raha hai.
Whatever car he is buying, if the company deems it worthy to sell, they should also treat him with the utmost respect at Service. Something which I have found to be true.
.............
.
So true. I am no BPL card holder who was offered the car at a throwaway price, like a builder has to offer EWS apartments as an obligation in every apartment complex. hence my expectations of being treated well were always there.

Bajaj Allianz, a party to the BMW Secure was an active participant and was always ready to part away with the amount they has been paid the premium for (approx 18). It was BMW, who pocketed 60%of the insurance premium who played games. And for this atleast i believe the dealer would not have been responsible.

To make it simple and to the point I hereby ask" What should have been the course of action from BMW if the repair estimate by Bird Auto was for 28.5 lakhs ?"
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Old 20th February 2013, 12:47   #101
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

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Honestly its the respect for his time which anybody would value more than the diet coke cans /brewed coffee which Bird Auto serves while the customers wait to speak to the service staff.
Oh that is so true, at the 14 sector sales outlet in Gurgaon, I noticed it too. The guy was so pompous about the coke cans, you would think he was offering you Amrit.

It was at our second visit to the showroom and we were quite liking the X3 at that time, X1 was quite small for our needs, when we had a chat with another customer a corporate who had a company X1. He told us about the tires in particular and how he had more than 3 changed in less than an year. Also other points he gave about how expensive these cars are to own and maintain. He said that had this been a self purchase, he would have lost it by now.
I still remember how the Sales guy at Bird told us, that you just take all the support packages like BSI and what not and then all you do is just fill the fuel and BMW takes care of the rest. We were so pulled by this that had it not been the sage advise from the gentleman and other accounts on this forum on how truly expensive buying mentally and financially a German is that we might have gone for one of Ze Germans.

OT but come to think of it we really need the likes of Lexus to come to India now. In fact more than anything our own buying choice for the Foruner was largely based on the reliability of the Big T.
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Old 20th February 2013, 13:09   #102
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.......... Also other points he gave about how expensive these cars are to own and maintain. He said that had this been a self purchase, he would have lost it by now.
I still remember how the Sales guy at Bird told us, that you just take all the support packages like BSI and what not and then all you do is just fill the fuel and BMW takes care of the rest. We were so pulled by this that had it not been the sage advise from the gentleman and other accounts on this forum on how truly expensive buying mentally and financially a German is that we might have gone for one of Ze Germans. ......

.
I might surprise a lot here but i have been asking for a test drive of the Z4 for more than 2 years now . Bird Auto has been giving various excuses, here is one out of them :-
The owner of Apra Auto (the maruti dealer next to their showroom) had to gift z4 to his son on his birthday and we dint even give him a test drive before the purchase.
To me, my money will work as good at a grocery store as the money which came out of anybody else's pocket .

Now that i understand I would have to accept this kind of attitude from premium car manufacturers and sellers I shall be more prepared the next time I take a plunge.

After this BMW experience my father pronounced that the family shall not bring home any product new product from Ford, Blackberry and BMW. . A very personal comment by my father which shall help my friends understand how the family felt during this . The three above mentioned brands pioneer in their own fields and offer excellent products but the after sales experiences could not match my family's expectations and hence they lost repeat customers.
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Old 20th February 2013, 14:37   #103
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

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5. BSI by BMW simply makes it the best premium brand in the country today and its sales figures are ample proof of the same.

Comparing the X1 and the Fortuner in terms of the cost of ownership is like comparing owning a Laura to owning a Bolero. Doesn't really make sense.
Totally agree to all the other points but today maybe the BMW is NOT seen as the best premium brand in the country any longer.

For 2012
BMW was at 93xx units with a growth of 0.04%
Audi was at 90xx units with a growth of 63%
Merc was as 7xxx units

So to me it appears that Audi is actually selling a lot more than BMW infact it outsold BMW in the second half of 2012 so if sales are to be seen as a reflection of a vehicle being the best premium option than possibly Audi has the edge today.

On a different note the X1 somehow does not appeal to me including in terms of value compared to the X3, 3 Series, 5 Series, A4, A6, Q3 and Q5.

Somehow the X1 feels like a really stretched attempt to enter the premium segment with a loss in the drive pleasure, features and space vs the other options.

So would say that in my view the Fortuner 5 Speed AT seems to be the way to go if one wants an XUV or if one wishes for a more evolved drive then the premium 3 Series or A4 sedan or the Q3 make for a better comparison.

Yep the X1 beats say the CRV easily but vs the fortuner or the Q3 lags a bit.

One buys a BMW for the driving pleasure any possibly an Audi for the plush interiors and feature and comfort set, and a merc for the all round mix of all this but the X1 does not match up to either the driving pleasure parameter nor really on the feature and comfort criteria.

Of course this is a matter of perceptions but when I drove the X1 the 3 series back to back the 3 series felt so much better and it's not that the X1 is really anywhere close to being an SUV.
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Old 20th February 2013, 14:47   #104
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Default Re: Dilemma : BMW X1 versus Toyota Fortuner

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For 2012
BMW was at 93xx units with a growth of 0.04%
Audi was at 90xx units with a growth of 63%
Merc was as 7xxx units
I knew someone would point this out. In fact, to add to it, as of last week, Audi was just 700 cars behind BMW., but number one is number one. No?!!

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On a different note the X1 somehow does not appeal to me including in terms of value compared to the X3, 3 Series, 5 Series, A4, A6, Q3 and Q5.
I do not like the X1 but for announcing my arrival, I d pick it over the Fortuner anyday simply because owning a BMW is, well, just that, owning a BMW.

OT: I do not like the Fortuner either.
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Old 20th February 2013, 15:07   #105
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.
2. Premium brands mean premium spares, expensive services and a lower resale but offer a psychological satisfaction of ownership that cannot be equated in monetary terms. While most of us might crib about the expenses involved, we would still love to have a BMW in our garage and drool on the Beemers on the streets. Period.

4. I have accompanied friends to the BMW showrooms at Delhi and Bangalore for their PDIs, purchases and enquiries and can confidently say that the staff there do not conceal the service/upkeep costs involved if asked about it.

5. BSI by BMW simply makes it the best premium brand in the country today and its sales figures are ample proof of the same.

Comparing the X1 and the Fortuner in terms of the cost of ownership is like comparing owning a Laura to owning a Bolero. Doesn't really make sense.
Going by the treatment that .Albatross. received, there was nothing premium especially the psychological bit. I understand premium spares and services, expensive car, expensive parts.The drool part is true of any premium badge, BMW is just another contender.

The sales staff definitely try to skirt the issue, the cost involved over the list price is quite high, saying things like free replacement of tyres/ only cost is WA/WB is regular.

BSI certainly is a great package, however, it is nothing like how the salesmen (not service/insurance folks) make it out to be. BMW owners themselves can throw some light on this.

The Laura/Bolero comparison is wrong, X1 and Fortuner fall in the same bracket, people cross shop in a budget and category and specs have very little to do with it. All the suggestion threads here are about this.The Bolero delivers what is promises and for it's intended use, has better reliability than Laura.
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