Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 28th April 2011, 17:05   #31
dot
Senior - BHPian
 
dot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ban Chang
Posts: 1,681
Thanked: 714 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

Ok.

After several days of phone calls, emails, chats with OEM friends, friends calling up their friends and contacts, chat with my wife, I have come to the conclusion that

a. There are flammability tests for parts of components that needs to be carried out. A foam sample has to pass these tests to go anywhere in a vehicle. The tests are based on ASTM, ISO, IS and other standards.

b. The final foam based products which actually goes in a vehicle may not be flame retardant. They are temperature resistant to a certain value.

Paradox? Hornet's nest? I will continue to investigate.
dot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2011, 11:10   #32
Senior - BHPian
 
Guderian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Thane
Posts: 1,616
Thanked: 1,409 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dot View Post
Ok.

After several days of phone calls, emails, chats with OEM friends, friends calling up their friends and contacts, chat with my wife, I have come to the conclusion that

a. There are flammability tests for parts of components that needs to be carried out. A foam sample has to pass these tests to go anywhere in a vehicle. The tests are based on ASTM, ISO, IS and other standards.

b. The final foam based products which actually goes in a vehicle may not be flame retardant. They are temperature resistant to a certain value.

Paradox? Hornet's nest? I will continue to investigate.
Thanks dot.
To my mind I think the Figo foam would have been at best heat insulant and not really fire retardant/resistant. As it was found fully charred.
Would be awaiting the feedback post the A.R.M.'s check.
And of course await your final research finding on the Ford Figo material !

Last edited by Guderian : 29th April 2011 at 11:31.
Guderian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2011, 11:51   #33
dot
Senior - BHPian
 
dot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ban Chang
Posts: 1,681
Thanked: 714 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guderian View Post
To my mind I think the Figo foam would have been at best heat insulant and not really fire retardant/resistant.
You got it right.

For confidential reasons I cannot disclose more on this subject on a public forum. Sure that all of you understand.

Last edited by dot : 29th April 2011 at 11:57.
dot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2011, 12:11   #34
Senior - BHPian
 
Guderian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Thane
Posts: 1,616
Thanked: 1,409 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dot View Post
You got it right.

For confidential reasons I cannot disclose more on this subject on a public forum. Sure that all of you understand.
Hi,
Great and thanks.
Appreciate your concern.
Catch up with you sometime off line and discuss your findings.

Have sent you a PM with my coordinates.

Last edited by Guderian : 29th April 2011 at 12:14.
Guderian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2011, 13:05   #35
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ghaziabad/Hyderabad/Mysore
Posts: 1,416
Thanked: 313 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

@Guderian

is there any foam left that wasn't burnt? if so then it is easier to take it to an open area and try to put it to flames, than to go to asking around.

If there is any foam left and you are up to it, let me know.
vina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2011, 13:53   #36
Senior - BHPian
 
Guderian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Thane
Posts: 1,616
Thanked: 1,409 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vina View Post
@Guderian

is there any foam left that wasn't burnt? if so then it is easier to take it to an open area and try to put it to flames, than to go to asking around.

If there is any foam left and you are up to it, let me know.
Hi vina,
No, the foam or whatever remained of it was all discarded and the Planet Ford chaps didn't even put in a replacement as it was not available in stock.
I of course just didn't get a chance to see it.
As per the description given the foam was totally charred with no bit of it having escaped.
To my mind the foam must have smouldered itself out and the plastic liner of the well is what caused the shooting flames which was spotted by the bystanders.

Last edited by Guderian : 29th April 2011 at 13:56.
Guderian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2011, 15:47   #37
Senior - BHPian
 
Guderian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Thane
Posts: 1,616
Thanked: 1,409 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

The Update !

Finally yesterday, as intimated earlier, the A.R.M. of Ford called up and had the vehicle to be brought into Ford Planet Pune in the afternoon.

The conversation/ discussion as usual started off on a very defensive note with the blame squarely being put by the ARM on a cigarette butt entering the space from the side or from inside the vehicle when the door was partly open. And his reason for inference was because of tobacco smell from the space !
As indicated in the snap below:
Name:  DSC07222.JPG
Views: 443
Size:  122.0 KB



Which of course bordered on the bizzare to say the least because:
- As mentioned earlier no smokers in the family. And even if someone did smoke to place/throw it from inside, even accidentally, into the crevice when the door is closed is virtually impossible.

- Secondly the family didn't stop anywhere on the route for the door to be opened and the butt to be thrown from outside. Without the door being opened it is again virtually impossible to put anything into the aperture from the door side !

- How does tobacco smell survive the burning paint, burnt plastic liner and PUF is anybodys guess ! Appears the chap went by what the ASC fellows told him.

A simple explanation of the flap having broken, creating the opening behind and a piece of coal ember or hot tar coated stone having entered the frontal potion of the aperture and firmly getting stuck in the PUF insert just seemed to escape the A.R.M. initially as shown in the snap below:
Name:  DSC07220 2.jpg
Views: 453
Size:  150.6 KB

After a few moments the A.R.M. mentioned that all the work would be done free of cost as indicated by the snap below:
Name:  DSC072202.jpg
Views: 432
Size:  164.0 KB

Jolly good ! But then why couldn't the same be just done gracefully rightaway and the feedback taken from the customer to be conveyed to the HQs is beyond comprehension.
Of course one understands that the ARM has to toe the politburo line and go by the official line of the high command to prevent liabilities from creeping up.

Fine as far as my friend is concerned. It was conveyed that his feedback will be sent to Ford Chennai by the ARM.

An interesting point came up during the course of the conversation:
That the PUF insert was neither heat resistant not fire retardant.

Another interesting point came up when I mentioned the case to another friend of mine who had some dealing with ARAI:
That all such inserts are cleared by the ARAI only if they are fire retardants or some such thing !

So where is the gap ?!! I am not very sure now...

Meanwhile I am expecting some snaps from my chum - of everything opened up etc - shall put it up here as soon as I receieve it.

Last edited by Guderian : 30th April 2011 at 16:06.
Guderian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2011, 15:59   #38
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,316
Thanked: 233 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

@Guderian, The PUF used is flame resistent. It is a norm followed by every company and Ford also follows it. I am 100% sure about it.

Probably the ARM was not aware of this. You can try by lighting a piece of that PUF using a cigarette lighter.
Mustang.101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2011, 18:24   #39
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ghaziabad/Hyderabad/Mysore
Posts: 1,416
Thanked: 313 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
@Guderian, The PUF used is flame resistent. It is a norm followed by every company and Ford also follows it. I am 100% sure about it.

Probably the ARM was not aware of this. You can try by lighting a piece of that PUF using a cigarette lighter.
If you hadn't clarified I was about to go .

This was a mysterious incident and remains mysterious. A flame resistant foam would more likely than not resist heat for a good length of time before becoming charred - the flame must have had a very high temperature. Tar makes sense only if the tar itself was on fire.
vina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2011, 20:20   #40
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,617
Thanked: 10,778 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
You can try by lighting a piece of that PUF using a cigarette lighter.
Yes, and see if it smells of burning tobacco too! PUF does give off a weird smell when exposed to flames.
SS-Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2011, 23:43   #41
Senior - BHPian
 
Guderian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Thane
Posts: 1,616
Thanked: 1,409 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
@Guderian, The PUF used is flame resistent. It is a norm followed by every company and Ford also follows it. I am 100% sure about it.

Probably the ARM was not aware of this. You can try by lighting a piece of that PUF using a cigarette lighter.
Hi Mustang, Am I glad to hear that !
And 100% surety would mean you work for Ford, I presume ? (As Henry Stanley famously said when he found Dr Livingstone deep in Africa !)
Thanks for the clarification - that does reduce the anxiety of many folks reading this.
You're right the ARM was possibly out of his depth on this.

Much less hold a piece of that PUF, I haven't even seen it as it was discarded at Planet Ford, Pune long before the car came to Thane.
Cigarette lighter ? Uh oh. Gave up smoking almost 10 years ago !

But seriously speaking if the PUF couldn't go up in puffs then how was it so badly charred/ smouldering as described ? Possibly because it was fire resistant it could have prevented further spread ?
And what item caused the flames to shoot out ? I guess it was the plastic remains of the mud flap and the wheel well liner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vina View Post
If you hadn't clarified I was about to go .

This was a mysterious incident and remains mysterious. A flame resistant foam would more likely than not resist heat for a good length of time before becoming charred - the flame must have had a very high temperature. Tar makes sense only if the tar itself was on fire.
Hi vina, Not quite mysterious with many parts of the puzzle having fallen in place. As mentioned in the posts previously. It could have been some embers as well. Or even an extremely hot smouldering tar coated stone could have done the trick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Yes, and see if it smells of burning tobacco too! PUF does give off a weird smell when exposed to flames.
What ?!! And feel the desperate urge to take upto smoking again ?!!
Guderian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2011, 01:17   #42
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ghaziabad/Hyderabad/Mysore
Posts: 1,416
Thanked: 313 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guderian View Post
...

But seriously speaking if the PUF couldn't go up in puffs then how was it so badly charred/ smouldering as described ? Possibly because it was fire resistant it could have prevented further spread ?
And what item caused the flames to shoot out ? I guess it was the plastic remains of the mud flap and the wheel well liner.

Guderian - flame resistant doesn't mean it will not be charred. for example to make charcoal you put wood in any enclosed chamber with very little air supply and then supply heat by lighting it. A little of the wood burns (the part that does have some oxygen at the bottom) and the rest loses all volatile matter and becomes charcoal.

Flame resistant means something else provided the heat - the PUF didn't.

Hi vina, Not quite mysterious with many parts of the puzzle having fallen in place. As mentioned in the posts previously. It could have been some embers as well. Or even an extremely hot smouldering tar coated stone could have done the trick.

As I wrote earlier - embers came BEFORE the tar. Also embers generate relatively low temperatures because they get coated with ash that inhibits heat and oxygen transfer. By the time your friend reached the tar the embers should have extinguished.

tar coated stones - while they feel very hot - do not have that high temperature.

It is possible though that the guys working on the road were using coal as the fuel to melt the tar and carelessly left that on the road. And Coal does give a funny smell (similar to cigarettes) so if your service engineer wasn't lying (which he probably was - just to blame it on your friend) this would explain it better than tar.


With my experience trying to ignite dry leaves on holi - I don't believe that was the cause - especially if your friend did find some of them unburnt.


What ?!! And feel the desperate urge to take upto smoking again ?!!
Either way it is a mystery to me, though as you pointed out the plastic liner might have caught flames.
vina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2011, 17:00   #43
Senior - BHPian
 
Guderian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Thane
Posts: 1,616
Thanked: 1,409 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vina View Post
Either way it is a mystery to me, though as you pointed out the plastic liner might have caught flames.
Hi vina,
A few clarifications - ember could also mean ember from coal or wood.

Secondly if the PUF had to char to that extent then the heat and flames elsewhere should have been much greater. If you notice the snaps the paint work has not been damaged much. So I think the PUF kept on smouldering and later on the liner burst into flames, all thanks to an ember (of whatever kind !) or hot tarred stone possibly with a trace of smoke and flame on it getting lodged firmly in the PUF having travelled through the gap created by the broken mud flap after ricocheting off the tyre or being thrown up by the tyre.

If you had read my first post you'll find I had mentioned that there were traces of burnt leaves in the gap.

Anyway I guess the with the car being totally done up by Ford and the lessons hopefully being conveyed by the folks, who have seen this site or inspected the car, to the R&D chaps in Ford, I think my friend is happy. Hope Ford comes out with flexible and a better 'materialed' mud flap so that it doesn't easily break.

Suffice to say that this episode could have been much, much more serious if the folks/bystanders on the road hadn't seen the smoke and flames or of the family was driving in a desolate area. Small mercies.

And all thanks in no small measure to this wonderful forum called Team BHP for the forward actions and attention by Ford !
Hurrah !

Last edited by Guderian : 1st May 2011 at 17:04.
Guderian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2011, 18:06   #44
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ghaziabad/Hyderabad/Mysore
Posts: 1,416
Thanked: 313 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guderian View Post
Hi vina,
A few clarifications - ember could also mean ember from coal or wood.

Right - I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote my earlier post.


Secondly if the PUF had to char to that extent then the heat and flames elsewhere should have been much greater. If you notice the snaps the paint work has not been damaged much. So I think the PUF kept on smouldering and later on the liner burst into flames, all thanks to an ember (of whatever kind !) or hot tarred stone possibly with a trace of smoke and flame on it getting lodged firmly in the PUF having travelled through the gap created by the broken mud flap after ricocheting off the tyre or being thrown up by the tyre.


If that is true then the PUF caught fire. I'm kinf of scared now.


If you had read my first post you'll find I had mentioned that there were traces of burnt leaves in the gap.

Anyway I guess the with the car being totally done up by Ford and the lessons hopefully being conveyed by the folks, who have seen this site or inspected the car, to the R&D chaps in Ford, I think my friend is happy. Hope Ford comes out with flexible and a better 'materialed' mud flap so that it doesn't easily break.

Suffice to say that this episode could have been much, much more serious if the folks/bystanders on the road hadn't seen the smoke and flames or of the family was driving in a desolate area. Small mercies.

And all thanks in no small measure to this wonderful forum called Team BHP for the forward actions and attention by Ford !
Hurrah !
+1 to that.

regards
vina
vina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2011, 19:52   #45
Senior - BHPian
 
Guderian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Thane
Posts: 1,616
Thanked: 1,409 Times
Default Re: FFoF ! Or Ford Figo on Fire...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vina View Post
vina
Hi vina, Not to worry on that PUF charring.
As Mustang mentioned here it should be fire proof/retardant/resisitant.
However, in the interest of safety, the boffins at Ford need to figure out is how did it get charred so much without any external signs, irrespective of whether it was due to cigarette, beedi, hookah or fuming little men from Mars !

And the relook at:
1. The design of the mud flap.
2. The design of area behind the mud flap/wheel well liner and the panel. Ideation (!) on to reduce the collection of detritus like dried leaves etc in that space.
3. PUF insert and wheel well liner material/shape or its placement.

I hope something good comes out of this for an otherwise nice (*my opinion based on looks please !*) and not just a 'Caution Pamphlet' in the Owner's Manual which states:

1. Please don't smoke and drive. Smoking is injurious to health. Please ensure you family members don't smoke either.
2. Please don't attempt to fire walk with this car. If you want to fire walk ask your holy man to organise it separately for you !
3. Don't drive over burning materials.
4. please don't drive over freshly tarred roads. wait for a couple of days, check the temperature of the tar and then drive.
5. Carry a fire extinguisher - not a part of standard accessories !
6. Do not ignore frantic signalling of bystanders please !

Just in a lighter vein folks ! Not to take away the seriousness of the matter.

Last edited by Guderian : 1st May 2011 at 20:22.
Guderian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
6 month old Ford Figo DCT: Battery dead 7 times! An ordeal with Bhagat Ford & Ford India Night Raven Technical Stuff 27 20th September 2016 16:25
Ford Fusion Caught fire:Will company cover warranty Pani The Indian Car Scene 55 25th April 2011 21:04
Thats a Figo. No, Fusion. No..Figo.ooh..Can't FIGure Out! sidindica The Indian Car Scene 27 27th April 2010 17:52


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 05:22.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks