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Old 17th May 2011, 11:05   #16
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

This is a known issue for Mahindra, the service staff at Sri-Durga Auto(MASS) acknowledged this.Our Scorpio m-hawk's clutch master cylinder assembly failed some time ago.

Wonder why Manufacturers are scared of a recall despite a known problem? Similarly the master cylinder assembly in Fiat Punto is a known issue, my car broke down on road last month, most dealers do not even know Fiat is changing this part FOC.
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Old 17th May 2011, 11:39   #17
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
The design is very robust, so this should not have happened.
Please check the post by ".anshuman" above. Besides this forum, you will find umpteen such examples on the Mahindra_Scorpio Yahoogroup also. Most of the owners of those vehicles are decent drivers, i.e. always depressing the clutch fully during gear changes, no half clutch, no clutch riding type of drivers; yet they have faced this problem. Even after so many instances of this problem, there has been no effort from M&M to proactively resolve this issue via a recall or retro-fitment when a vehicle comes for servicing.

If this is a robust design, then I shudder to think what a bad design must be like.

Cheers,
Vikram

Last edited by comfortablynumb : 17th May 2011 at 11:41.
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Old 17th May 2011, 11:49   #18
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

Dear Comfortablynumb - I understand your anxiety. I have already conveyed the information to the concerned department within the company.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 17th May 2011, 12:23   #19
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

Here is detailed procedure about driving without use of clutch : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2354649 (Emergency driving - Without clutch)
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Old 17th May 2011, 12:42   #20
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
I wonder what kind of design engineers thought about keeping the slave cylinder inside the bell housing. BTW any idea how is the current part different from the old part. Especially in terms of design and placement.
It is still inside the bell-housing. But apparently there are some design changes since some time in 2010.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
So how is the vehicle running now?
So far it is driving well. Hope it stays that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
Foremost - The topic should be failure of clutch cylinder rather than failure of clutch.
Two things.
One the failure of such component is unacceptable at ~30l on odo. How old is the vehicle?
Two the dealership worked so late at night to keep their promise. Kudos for such customer service.
Vehicle has a manufacturing date of January 2010 and delivered on February 2011.

Kudos should go to Mr. Rahul of Mahindra in Tamil Nadu, without whose help it wouldn't have been possible to get the vehicle on time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
That said you could have avoided wasting lots of time by driving the vehicle without clutch.
I am aware of this, but this high way is littered with toll booths so this is not practically possible. Besides my family was with me in the car and I wanted to get them to our destination as soon as possible since my daughter had a fever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aviorp View Post
Possibilities in your case :
1. Genuine failure : since you mentioned that you have a driver. Unless you have done most of the driving and dont shift gears with half clutch or keep the clutch depressed most of the time.
2. The clutch oil was not replaced.
@aviorp: Me and my driver are both very good drivers. My vehicle still looks and drives in Brand new condition. This was not a failure of the clutch plate caused by half clutching etc. The clutch plates are still in good condition after 32K kilometers and was not replaced.

Clutch oil replacement is not required for a one year old vehicle with 32K kms on the odo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Kumar - hello after a very long time. The clutch assembly must last for the life of the vehicle. The typical life of a vehicle is considered as 3,50,000 kilometers. Customer vehicles rarely go the distance. Our vehicles run 1000 kms per day. Your vehicle also runs predominantly on highways. For unit distance covered by the clutch, if I share the data, you will be pleased to know it under differing cycles of run like highway, city, mixed etc. Unfortunately, this information remains classified for obvious reason. FOS (factor of safety) of the clutch is also an important design parameter.

Dear 4*4 addict - sorry about the incident. The design is very robust, so this should not have happened.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Behramji what can I say. You live in a Lab, I live in the real world. When I am broken down on the highway, confidential lab reports don't help.

If you feel the design is Robust, they it may have to do with the quality control of the vendor who provides the clutch assembly.

Guys, I would like to acknowledge the help provided by Mr. Rahul V who heads up the service in Tamil Nadu. Without his help, I would probably not have got the vehicle.
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Old 17th May 2011, 13:27   #21
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Comfortablynumb - I understand your anxiety. I have already conveyed the information to the concerned department within the company.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
I have a December 2010 manufactured mHawk VLX 4X4 and this incident has me worried. Please let me know if I need to.
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Old 17th May 2011, 13:57   #22
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Vehicle has a manufacturing date of January 2010 and delivered on February 2011.
Did you mean "delivered in Feb 2010"? Mine is mfg'ed and delivered both in Feb 2010. I hope I don't have to face a similar ordeal. Fingers crossed!

Cheers,
Vikram
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Old 17th May 2011, 13:59   #23
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by comfortablynumb View Post
Did you mean "delivered in Feb 2010"?
Yes delivered on Feb 2010.
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Old 17th May 2011, 14:27   #24
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

Dear all - Scorpios with NEFTC / MDI3200TC engines have the clutch slave cylinder outside the bell housing, so there is a clutch fork. Scorpios with mHawk engines have the clutch slave cylinder inside the bell housing, so there is no clutch fork. Both systems are very robust and therefore, there is no need for any anxiety.

Dear 4*4 addict - your comments are correct but what can I also say? If I was living in a lab like a white-coated professor, I would not be on the forum answering your questions, neither would I have given you the Thar CRDe. Without our confidential lab reports, your vehicle would not be on the road as the engineering BOM (Bill Of Materials) would not have been uploaded in our system and without the BOM, Nasik plant cannot roll down the vehicle. Please understand that I very well know how the "field" (real world) works. I trust you will appreciate.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 17th May 2011, 16:03   #25
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

Hi, To join the discussion a little late !

1. 4X4addict - Extremely sorry to hear of your travails & tribulations. With the family around, getting stranded at a remote strip can truly be a nightmare. Can well empathise with you.

2. As an ex owner of a Scorpio CRDe Sept 2005, which was extremely well maintained and well driven by yours truly - all I can say is that the clutch assembly of the Scorpio is truly its Achilles heel.

In the 1,13,210 KMs my Scorp ran, till it was sold (after 5.5 years of ownership), the clutch plate was changed twice (once under a retrofit programme wherein all the 7 components(master cylinder, pedal assembly, slave cylinder, fork, clutch release bearing, pressure plate and clutch plate) were changed), in addition to the retrofit the slave cylinder once again (under warranty), and master cylinder once (paid), and the CRB two more times (under warranty).

And I am a kind of driver who never lets my foot go anywhere near the clutch pedal needlessly and never even dream of driving harsh. Despite this, the number of clutch related issues. This was in the years 2&3. Ultimately in the last two years of ownership had one clutch issue - the change of the master cylinder.

And now to think that the clutch slave cylinder is inside the bell housing ! Can be quite a nightmare changing that.

Possibly the design change was carried out to protect the slave cylinder and reduce the number of components ? As the regular complaint was the rubber bellows tearing and water entering the same, the actuators rusting and the pedal turning hard and the gear changes impossibly tough.

But even then !

Last edited by Guderian : 17th May 2011 at 16:21.
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Old 17th May 2011, 16:17   #26
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
@DB: The more city use faster is wear out. Long distance drivers typically get more CP life.

@HVK: Sorry if the CP has failed then starting in gear would not work as the clutch will keep slipping. Only if the clutch wire or cylinder has failed that you can use on the gear starting and shifting without clutch to get to repair shop. The control and dexterity plays important part in how much traffic you can handle without clutch use.

I always teach any learner four things apart from basic driving - 1. Tyre Changing 2 Reversing without turning head or looking back 3 Changing gears without clutch and 4 Daily look at engine and floor for leaks and spills.

Will try to put a thread for gear shifting without clutch.
Although , I saw you started the clutch thread, a thread on the above highlighted will also benefit many here.
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Old 17th May 2011, 17:37   #27
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

All Manufacturers claim clutch should last 300,000kms without problem if not used.
but in real world the best of us cannot push a clutch beyond 130-140K. Normally, if a clutch lasts 80K, its considered good.

So that means, logically, only two things are possible
1. Manufacturers are lying, clutches cannot last 300,000km in the real world
2. Manufacturers are the only people in the country having drivers who can make clutches go for 300,000kms, nobody else in the country knows how to drive.

It reminds me of a joke.
Can a Luna do 0-100 in 5 seconds.
Answer is "Yes!" - When strapped to a Bugatti Veyron!
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Old 17th May 2011, 19:17   #28
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

A brief about what I did when my clutch slave cylinder failed:

I was stranded in the middle of highway when the slave clutch cylinder leaked and the clutch pedal gone for toss completely. It went all the way till floor.

Remedy short term that I did with no knowledge whatsoever about what happened to the clutch at that time:

1) Purchased clutch oil (DOT 4 brake oil tobe precise) filled it and, tapped the pedal untill it got some feel and became heavy.

2) Quickly closed the bonnet, started the car, pushed the clutch before it became useless and slotted first, damn the car started moving. Followed this all the way till 30kms I reach home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
All Manufacturers claim clutch should last 300,000kms without problem if not used.
but in real world the best of us cannot push a clutch beyond 130-140K. Normally, if a clutch lasts 80K, its considered good.
Tata Safari clocked 2,27,000 Kms, and running on 2nd set of clutch plates for last 1,54,000kms and still no signs of wear-off. That's what I call reliability. Is'nt it....?? I don't support any of the manufacturers but might be we expect 50% of what they say is right.

Last edited by mercedised : 17th May 2011 at 19:32.
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Old 17th May 2011, 19:25   #29
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercedised View Post
A brief about what I did when my clutch slave cylinder failed:

I was stranded in the middle of highway when the slave clutch cylinder leaked and the clutch pedal gone for toss completely. It went all the way till floor.

Remedy short term that I did with no knowledge whatsoever about what happened to the clutch:

1) Purchased clutch oil (DOT 4 brake oil tobe precise) filled it and, tapped the pedal untill it got some feel and became heavy.

2) Quickly closed the bonnet, started the car, pushed the clutch before it became useless and slotted first, damn the car started moving. Followed this all the way till 30kms I reach home.
Interesting solution, I hope it will work in my non-crde also.



Quote:
Tata Safari clocked 2,27,000 Kms, and running on 2nd set of clutch plates for last 1,54,000kms and still no signs of wear-off. That's what I call reliability. Is'nt it....?? I don't support any of the manufacturers but might be we expect 50% of what they say is right.
Super - that is bullet-proof reliability!!! But are there any signs of failing clutch?

What are the signs to watch out for?
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Old 17th May 2011, 19:31   #30
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Default Re: Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvkumar View Post
Super - that is bullet-proof reliability!!! But are there any signs of failing clutch?
What are the signs to watch out for?
For now, the vehicle climbs any and every slope without hassle and with 7 people onboard, No excessive racing, No stalling in 2nd gear (untill I climb a slope from standstill), No clutch hardness, Smooth gears.

You know better than anyone here about reliability aspects.
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