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Old 1st June 2011, 20:35   #16
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
The GM is talking BS. This is a clear case of improper WA. A few queries:-

1. How many kilometers done?
2. Any sign of tire wear? If yes, kind of wear.
3. Any abnormal Return-ability / Steering effort (feel at low speeds on both sides).

Also if possible, post the current WA values of the car. Let us know.

Spike
1. The car is brand new & is within 1000kms.
2. Since it has hardly run any kms, it is difficult to gauge tyre wear at this point in time.
3. Returnability is not an issue, however I will confirm that.

Hopefully the WA might have been done today, will share the values here to seek further inputs.
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Old 3rd June 2011, 14:52   #17
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
Hopefully the WA might have been done today, will share the values here to seek further inputs.
Finally it seems my friend could see some light at the end of the tunnel (or TATA tunnel should I say). His story continued below in his own words:

Quote:

Dear Members,
Here is an update of last 48hrs.

On 31st may I received a call from the Dealer Urmil motors asking feedback of the new car (this was the 3rd time they called) I explained the young lady that its your organization so big that the left hand doesn't even know what right hand is doing? She was completely awestruck with my statement & promised me that someone will soon call you not for the feedback but for your complaint. On 30th evening I had sent the email & youtube video to Urmil motors & its GM at his email id too.

On 1st June Sumedha Sharma from Urmil motors called me up saying sorry we haven't received any email from you. I was furious to listen that, she explained me that the 2 email address I have sent the mail does go to some other person/s. I asked her why have you mentioned those emails on the letterpad/bill & visiting cards? I told her that I am taking the car to bridgestone tyre shop to get the alignment checked.

I left for the scheduled appointment in afternoon.

Long story short GM Urmil motors Mr. Virender Singh emailed me by late evening asking for the car to be picked up so it can be checked. Just after the email I got a call from Urmil motors but by then I had the alignment checked already.

At the Bridgestone shop the guy was taking his afternoon power nap when I reached, his assistant woke him up & he asked me to bring the car on to the platform, there he measured the alignment surprisingly manually by the thread, after few observations he took 2 spanners & asked me to go on a drive, he specifically took me on certain roads & saw the way car was drifting left.

Every few kms we stopped & he did few adjustments 1 by 1 on left & right tyre, after 1st round we came back to the same platform & he measured again with the thread, this time he swapped the left & right tyre & we went again on a test drive this time one final adjustment & the car was almost balanced but not perfectly 100%, we drove over 30kms & found that the car now is over corrected & bit of right drift was noticed to which he said that this is done to correct the slight tyre wear & asked me to come back after 500kms of run, he warned me that due to swapping the tyre I will face bit of right drift but that should soon correct & then we will check with the machine & adjust accordingly, For the old misalignment he did say that the correction was overdone & it was causing the problem (I cant confirm this) but the test report from Urmil motors gives me some number which I don't understand but assume that it showed as correct.

Now by evening I had to leave out of Delhi for some work so I got a chance to drive the car on NH1, one of the best highways in India, for the 1st time the car was going smooth without much left pulling, instead at times I was correcting for its slight right pulling on left slanted roads.

One big achievement accomplished though not 100% but this gave me immense hope that the real issue was & is with the tyre alignment only as I had always thought so. While driving on highway I now have other issue that the steering is giving vibration over 60kmph(5-7mm left right shaking) this might be due to over correction but I need perfection in the car.

Next day on 2nd June while returning back I already had completed 900kms which meant 1st service was also due soon, so on the way back I went to another Tata workshop Oberai motors in Noida & had a meeting with GM, surprising Mr. Rajgopala addressed me by name & confirmed me that are you Mr. Ranjan Sharma & we have received the complaint about your car from Tata motors CSM & be rest assured that your car will be taken care & delivered trouble free, please let us know when we can get the car from you. He had the copies of facebook page with my photo & TBHP pages forwarded to him by CSM Tata Motors.

I explained him the problem & showed the video & he was surprised to see the misalignment & said we would not like to let the car leave unless the alignment is perfect & its indeed dangerous to drive a car which drifts like that on an expressway.

Tomorrow the car will be collected from my house & will be checked & serviced as per 1000kms schedule.

As I left the workshop to reach home I got a call from Ms Bhawana of Tata motors CSM (north India)Gurgaon & I confirmed that I have spoken to the workshop & will be sending the car for checking alignment.

I always feel that the man behind the machine is the most important link in getting the problems diagnosed, there is no replacement for human intelligence. Since tyre shop technician could do it just by the thread I feel that the alignment machine at Urmil motors was either giving wrong readings or the technician failed miserably in gauging the severity of the problem. That's the reason I choose another workshop to get the alignment checked.

This car took a heavy toll on me last 15 days, all my work got disturbed due to this issue as I was devoting more time to the car & posting about the problem on the internet rather than my work, the biggest setback was that we had to 1st postpone the summer holiday with family, but then hotel booking was not available on alternative dates so we finally cancelled it. I could not take the risk of driving this car with family on highway.

Now if the car gets perfectly aligned 1st thing I need is a long break from Delhi heat & ride the car on a long drive so lets hope for the best for the car & the family holiday (if I get hotel bookings). It will be nice to review the car driving experience on 1200-1500kms drive which I surely will post here for others to read.

Persistent followup & cooperation from so many forum user made me feel quite reassuring & I hope that others Manza users who contacted me via Facebook & have similar problems also get their problems solved.

Will keep the group updated of further developments.
Regards
Ranjan

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Old 3rd June 2011, 15:40   #18
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
...While driving on highway I now have other issue that the steering is giving vibration over 60kmph(5-7mm left right shaking)...
Please ask them to balance the wheels as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
... I feel that the alignment machine at Urmil motors was either giving wrong readings or the technician failed miserably in gauging the severity of the problem ....
Or they never bothered to align, as in many cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
1st thing I need is a long break from Delhi heat & ride the car on a long drive so lets hope for the best for the car & the family holiday (if I get hotel bookings).
Glad that you have your problem sorted. Happy Holidays.
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Old 3rd June 2011, 15:52   #19
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Its always advisable to get things like alignment & balancing from outside. This enables you to monitor the process that they are doing on the spot. TMIL is quite careless when it comes to tackling such issues. During my 3rd (or 4th, don't remember which 1 exactly) service the SA told me that they had done the alignment & balancing as per the service requirements. I told him that I would pay for that only if a report was given to me. His replies suddenly became inconsistent & finally they told me that they had indeed forgotten to do that job. I was furious & said that as a penalty I would not pay for the entire service. After a lot of coaxing I gave in & paid for whatever was actually due. The major problem with TMIL workshop is the sheer no. of cars that they have in their workshop these days.
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Old 3rd June 2011, 17:05   #20
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

While you are getting it done outside choose a more compitent setup then the bridge-stone shop you went to .. Almost everyone has shifted to laser based from thread based and there is absolutely no need for alignment guy to drive and adjust nuts every now and then.

Actually he could not do it properly and that's why it started drifting to right so probably he was fed up and made the story to come back after 500KM.

As I wrote earlier the alignment values are designed by company so all it takes is to use proper range of values at a competent shop.

Refer to T-BHP directory and check the nearest recommended place to you.
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Old 3rd June 2011, 17:08   #21
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

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Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Please ask them to balance the wheels as well.
Even I have given him the same suggestion, lets see what's the outcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick1977 View Post
Its always advisable to get things like alignment & balancing from outside. This enables you to monitor the process that they are doing on the spot. TMIL is quite careless when it comes to tackling such issues.
Absolutely . It is a good practice to ask for evidences. Any part replaced, ask them for the used part, any testing/alignment done ask them for the report / authentic readings. Its really a pity that none of the Service Centres are trustworthy & we have to be extra vigilant.
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Old 4th June 2011, 12:36   #22
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
Will keep the group updated of further developments.
Regards
Ranjan

UnQuote:
Further findings from Ranjan:

Quote:

After 130kms of test drive with 4 passengers & boot loaded with 3 suitcases I can now say the car is horribly misaligned, the wheel may be aligned (as per 2 Tata workshops) now but there seems some other issue problem & my guess is that workshop are not able to detect manufacturing defect. I would love to be proved wrong. I will post the video later tonight but the car still pulls to the left, imagine on a road where you have a 90 turn & the road tapers to right the car should be following the tramline thus moving to right, this car still pulls to left & workshop people from day one are telling me the same story that this is normal behavior. I have access to over 300 cars in my society & I can test tomorrow on the same roads, I have sold my old Indica V2, else I would have tested on that too which ran without any such problem on the same roads.

I took test on the same roads & when the car moves straight the steering wheel is tilted to approx 10-15 right after the latest alignment (IS THAT NORMAL ??) the car still has the same old issue nothing much has changed so I conclude that 2 Tata workshop have failed to diagnose the problem & now I feel its time to find problem elsewhere.

I am taking the car again to the workshop & ask them how have they approved this car road worthy & have not even provided the alignment printout? After driving 22yrs either I have very bad driving skills or I may not even know the basic of driving but I challenge anyone now who knows about cars & their aerodynamics to prove me wrong. From yesterday 1st service & alignment I am noticing the excess noise within front wheels such as brake pads dragging with the wheel, I will have to double check now in the workshop that this is not the case.

Suggestions welcome from all who can think about the source of the problem in this car. Thanks for all the support you have provided.

Regards
Ranjan

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Old 4th June 2011, 13:09   #23
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
I took test on the same roads & when the car moves straight the steering wheel is tilted to approx 10-15 right after the latest alignment (IS THAT NORMAL ??) the car still has the same old issue nothing much has changed so I conclude that 2 Tata workshop have failed to diagnose the problem & now I feel its time to find problem elsewhere.
Could be that the steering wheel is not centred correctly. Happens sometimes if the steering wheel is centred with misaligned wheels and then the alignment is corrected. This must be the opposite case. Not normal, but easily correctable (once the alignment is corrected). (PS. Centring is what the SAs call it at Chevy - could be called something else at Tata)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
From yesterday 1st service & alignment I am noticing the excess noise within front wheels such as brake pads dragging with the wheel, I will have to double check now in the workshop that this is not the case.
Is it possible that one of the brakes are binding? That could also cause drag and pulling. Can check if one of the hubs is hotter than the rest after drive.
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Old 4th June 2011, 13:15   #24
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-autozone.html (I paid 5 Lacs to Fiat India to beat me up(JOSHI AUTOZONE))
hope it doesnt turn out to be like this
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Old 4th June 2011, 13:26   #25
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

@autoindian: This is a perfect case of how lightly A.S.Ses take wheel alignment, balancing and (most neglected) Rotation.

My father has a Tata Indigo XL DOCIR Ambiente for three years. We made sure that tyres are rotated every 10,000 KMs, are balanced and aligned every 5,000 KMs, and took care to pass slowly over any, and i repeat, any type of bad road / patch, even if we were in a hurry. All this should be done at a reliable and good Tyre Showroom who have the latest equipment and professionals. After three years and about 65,000 KMs, we sold off the car last year for Rs 3 Lacs. The new owner went off happy, even though we didnt get anything serviced or changed before the sale.
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Old 4th June 2011, 14:37   #26
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Tyre images are before the yesterday alignment & the steering image is after the alignment.
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Old 4th June 2011, 14:57   #27
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
Further findings from Ranjan:
I'm surprised that even after this much of complaints and hassles, T.A.S.S has still managed to screw up the alignment.

I understand that being a new car, hopes and expectations would be high and this experience is like 'kabaab mein haddi (?)'. And again, there is a high tendency to take the new car to the A.S.S for everything, buuuttttttt.... what I would advise is to take the car to an independent workshop and get over with this headache. After all an alignment = 350Rs, does not justify the mental agony gone through. Again ALL of the current problems, including the steering alignment can be easily sorted by an alignment center.

Also, if possible, please post a print out of the current alignement values (left pulling condition) here.
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Old 4th June 2011, 21:13   #28
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

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Also, if possible, please post a print out of the current alignement values (left pulling condition) here.
Here you go.

Quote:

I went to workshop & took the GM of Oberai motors & a senior technician who had done the alignment & road test of the car on 30km test drive on expressway, within 10mins they saw the horror of misalignment @120kmph, surprisingly on road where there is 1 feet slope to its right & road turning to right the car pulled to extreme left even there.

The GM told me that we suspected the left lower arm & knuckle to be the faulty part & they had already taken the approval from Tata CSM yesterday for changing it but cannot change without my approval, today being Saturday I could not talk with anyone in CSM. So they want to change these 2 parts & test the car they say they have other 2 cases where this fault was found & after changing it was sorted out. What if the problem does not go away even after doing these changes.

To be on safer side they want their own wheel alignment machine to be checked for calibration by LG technician. Now my question is should I allow them to change these 2 parts & let them calibrate the wheel alignment. Do the experts feel that doing so in a new car workshop can perfectly recalibrate it as its done in factory, any downside or risk involved doing so. Any futurist problem which I can face due to this as side effect.

I am uploading the images of faulty parts & the 2 (before & after)reports of
wheel alignment.

Waiting for the experts to comment & thanks again for doing all the groundwork for me on teambhp.

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Attached Thumbnails
New Tata Manza pulling to the left-beforealignment.jpg  

New Tata Manza pulling to the left-afterfinalalignment.jpg  

New Tata Manza pulling to the left-knuckle.jpg  

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Old 4th June 2011, 22:09   #29
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

New Tata Manza pulling to the left-knuckle.jpg

I am not an expert but is that a tear in metal?
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Old 6th June 2011, 12:52   #30
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Get the complaint direct to Tata Motors (should be some execs on this site, too). My Manza (when brand new) was rock steady on a straight course, no alignment done after it left the factory, at any speed between 10 to 70, through the duration of taking out a cigarette from the packet and lighting it (say 10-15 sec). In fact, I used to let it cruise hands-off (pretty dangerous, I know!!). Later I tried some (accidental) rough driving with it on Mumbai pot holes in the monsoons, and now it has developed a rather permanent slight list to the left. Brand new car should be rock steady.
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