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Old 6th June 2011, 18:06   #31
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Further updates from my friend Ranjan:

Quote:

Dear members
I was travelling to nainital in the morning driving carefully the moment we reached haldwani i started feeling some drag and loss of brakes since we were running quite late and hungry too decided to take abreak till that time nothing major problem was felt except braking. After having ten min break started again had just gone by few kms we could feel break shoe burning and smelling. Since the ac was off glasses down we could smell it which means this was happening since much before and was causing break loss. Now i had no way to stop on upgoing road midway with two families and kids. Idecided to drive slowly but reah a spot where i can halt the car...before i could halt the car worst happened. On sharp left u bend the car had sudden loss of power the car failed to move forward and car behind me had trouble understanding the situation. I reved up the engine in 1st gear to 3000rpm but the car lost power didnt move forward and started going back. As if the car had no grip on the road. I somehow managed to reverse the car without having any control for 30 sec. All passangers got down and then i moved the car few meters and stopped. The left front brake shoe was smelling and rim was too hot to touch.

Called a taxi from the hotel and sent them in that. Now iam waiting the brakes to cool down so i can drive else the car will be towed up to nainital.

My bad luck with this manza feeling too bad and sad. Willpost later when i reach nainital.

The car is now showing too many problems and i need help in sorting so many problems.

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Old 9th June 2011, 10:48   #32
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Last update on TIUG (Tata Indica User's Group) from my friend was on 7th June, not very encouraging.

Quote:

The place this car stopped did not have mobile signal & the call connecting was a problem, only sms & data network was working thats how I was able to post to the yahoo group.

I spoke to GM Oberai motors & he asked me to wait till the brakes cool off & then drive a few kms & stopped again to cool them finally reached the resort in nainital from there I called up the 1800 helpline & they said they will send the mechanic from haldwani to check the car, later got a call from the mechanic that he will be coming by 9am next day (today 7june) Till 10am no one came thats when I called up the 1800 no. again & they assured me that the soon I will get a call. I got the call at 10.30 stating that the the car needs to be towed down to haldwani no repair can be done or fault be checked on site.

I then received a call GM Urmil motors from whom the car was purchased & he asked me as to what is the condition of the car I explained him what has happened yesterday. He said that it seems the clutch plate has failed, we spoke almost 30 mins & he assured me that best possible will be done to get your car problems sorted out.

I finally decided to test the car again at steep roads & shot the video (will post tomorrow) THe car indeed has some clutch problem that its not passing on the power to the engine & thus the car fails to move forward, the car brake shoe & disk is inded getting hot & I can smell but the brakes are working & I will take a slow drive down the hill till haldwani or delhi if possible.

Alignment problems now clutch plate problem in new manza, are these normal issues to a new car?
Will post update tomorrow evening.

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Last edited by AutoIndian : 9th June 2011 at 10:49. Reason: Unquote added
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Old 9th June 2011, 12:18   #33
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

AutoIndian , I feel your friend needs to know basics of hill driving , This does not seem like an error of vehicle.
Break fading and overheating on hill drive is very common and usually happens due to excessive breaking and not using proper gear to control speed.
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Old 9th June 2011, 19:38   #34
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Quote:

See this video & tell me is it some kind of clutch failure?
The car refuses to move forward with a punch, when fully loaded it just wont move up & started coming back on highway.


I have driven plenty of times on these roads with my old Indica 2002 model & never had ever any clutch failure upto 1,10000kms after which I sold it.

I have been driving car last 22yrs & have been upto rohtang pass (twice crossed it to reach kelang & further leh) have crossed passes in Ladhak & know how to drive in mountains but the new manza failed me on a very similar roads in nainital.

I never drive with foot on clutch (this was the 1st lesson I got many yrs ago)I drive by accelerator so if you are in correct gear you will not need much of braking in the hills.

Driving down hill I never go above 40km in 3rd gear so you can get an idea how I drive.

Need opinion on this as the car is going to the workshop tomorrow.

Ranjan

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Quote:

Another video shot from outside showing how miserable the car is refusing to have power even at 3000rpm 1st gear, mind you I am the only one who is sitting in the car so no boot luggage nor any passenger in this.



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Last edited by AutoIndian : 9th June 2011 at 19:51. Reason: New video added
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Old 9th June 2011, 20:11   #35
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
AutoIndian , I feel your friend needs to know basics of hill driving , This does not seem like an error of vehicle.
Break fading and overheating on hill drive is very common and usually happens due to excessive breaking and not using proper gear to control speed.
Ranjan Quote:

I dont use much braking coming down the hill bcoz I drive in 3rd gear max @40kmph never above so the braking is gentle & very less required, going up I do the same & steer the car with the accelerator in 2/3 gear.

Moreover in this case I was moving up the hill so brakes shoe getting hot is not applicable, indeed they were getting hot which finally was sorted out by rubbing them on sand paper in Tata workshop at Haldwani (Gola Ganpathi Motors)

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Old 10th June 2011, 07:22   #36
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

@Autoindian - Looking at the all the issues that your freind is encountering in the new Manza i think he has been unfortunate to get a Lemon. I think with the number of fixes that are being tried out your freind will feel like he has got a pre-worshipped car. Stupid Question - Has he asked Tata for a replacement of the vehicle
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Old 10th June 2011, 10:38   #37
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Ranjan has put up a query:

"Is 2000rpm not enough for the car to climb the car up hill? Do we need more than 3000rpm in a new car & even then it struggles to move up."

My reply to him is:

Depends on which car one is driving & what is the rpm band where the engine produces max (peak) torque. As far as the Manza Quadrajet is concerned, it produces a max torque of 200Nm in the rpm range of 1750-3000 rpm. So ideally speaking you driving at 2000 rpm should be sufficient enough for the car to climb up hill (Request Manza owners to throw more light on this about their actual driving experience in the hills)
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Old 10th June 2011, 13:52   #38
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Same kind of scene happened with my friends figo. Figo was loaded with 5 well built passengers. On the climb car refused to go ahead. Lot screeching and smoke. Then local mechanic came to rescue did some settings in cluth. And car started to zoom again.

I do not know whether this Manza and Figo problems are related. But from video scene looks the same. And I do not know what was that clutch setting which local mechanic did.
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Old 10th June 2011, 14:16   #39
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

A quick look at the 2nd video and I see that your friend is not familiar with turbocharged vehicles. Yes, you need to keep the engine on boil for the vehicle to pull.

Also, regarding tyres screeching, there is nothing wrong in that. Try it with a full boot and a 3 passengers behind and your friend will not even be able to move the car. You need momentum and slow power inputs to NOT TO loose traction. Here, as soon as the turbo has kicked the tyres spin frantically for grip. You need to slowly let the power to the wheels for it to NOT spin.

I'll watch the 1st video and comment later. Gotta run.

Cheers
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Old 10th June 2011, 15:50   #40
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Just now, I saw the 1st video, and it indeed seems like he is not familiar with turbo vehicles. He is letting go of the clutch at the wrong time (just when the turbo kicks) and its transferring much more torque than the wheels can maintain traction and hence spinning. And in the last part of the video, he is not smelling the brake shoe, but the tyres.

The best thing for him to do is to drive another Manza on the same trail and see how it behaves.
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Old 11th June 2011, 01:46   #41
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

I forwarded this URL to Tata Customer support email id yesterday and am awaiting a response. I'm also trying to find out if my friend in Tata Chemicals knows somebody sufficiently senior in Tata Motors.

I'll let you know if I hear from them in any form.
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Old 11th June 2011, 10:07   #42
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_srini View Post
I forwarded this URL to Tata Customer support email id yesterday and am awaiting a response. I'm also trying to find out if my friend in Tata Chemicals knows somebody sufficiently senior in Tata Motors.

I'll let you know if I hear from them in any form.
Thank you Raj for taking the initiative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Just now, I saw the 1st video, and it indeed seems like he is not familiar with turbo vehicles. He is letting go of the clutch at the wrong time (just when the turbo kicks) and its transferring much more torque than the wheels can maintain traction and hence spinning. And in the last part of the video, he is not smelling the brake shoe, but the tyres.

The best thing for him to do is to drive another Manza on the same trail and see how it behaves.
Dhanushs, Ranjan has responded quite elaborately to your post, below is his response.

Quote:

Thanks for spending time analyzing the driving method.

Let me give a detailed description of those 30sec hell of time as detailed as possible.

The car had no problem since morning we started at 5.30am on 6/6/2011 it had good power build up past 2000 & I max drove it in range of 2000-2200 range approx.

We reached haldwani I started feeling some drag and loss of brakes, further up from kathgodam the real hills started & the car was refusing to move in 3rd gear @2200rpm, hence I shifted to 2nd gear to build the momentum @ 3000rpm & then shifted to 3rd gear but the can just got slowing down as if I am in the wrong gear. After 2-3 tries I felt there is something wrong with air filter & will check it at nainital bcoz we were suppose to go to Munshiyari which is much higher & more steep curves will be crossed on way.

Most of this drive I drove at 2800-3000rpm in 2nd gear I have never needed my Indica on the very same roads to be driven in 2nd gear.

We took a break till that time nothing major problem was felt except braking & less power. After having ten min break somewhere around jeolikot started again had just gone by few kms we could feel break shoe burning and smelling. Since now the ac was off glasses down we could smell it which means this was happening since much before and was causing break & power loss.
(2 days before I had reported that the brakes shoe is making noise when I apply brake & something is dragging & making noise while running, but Oberai motors Noida after checking said no its not the case)

Now I had no way to stop on upgoing road midway with two families and kids. I decided to drive slowly but reach a spot where I can halt the car. Before I could halt the car worst happened.

On sharp left u bend there were a traffic halt so I had to halt too when I started the car had sudden loss of power & the car failed to move forward and car behind me had trouble understanding the situation.

Knowing from past few kms drive I knew the car is having some power loss hence I did the following.

1.Revved up the engine in 1st gear to 2800-3000rpm
2.handbrake was gently disengaged
3.gently took the left feet off the clutch fully
(handbrake & clutch were let off in opposite direction gradually while maintaining the rpm which according to me was on the higher side owing to the power loss which I was facing while coming up)

As anticipated the car didn't move forward instead the car lost power didn't move forward and started going back as hand brake was disengaged & my right foot was on accelerator, then engine got shut off.

4. Took off the right foot from accelerator & then braked full but the car had sudden brake failure that hand brake didn't work either & In my presence of mind all I could think of in that moment was forget all theories & apply common sense to what can be done now.

Luckily the car behind me after few seconds removed his car from behind & I let the manza move reverse & steered to the left side. The worst was still not over I unlock the car doors but the 2 ladies & 3 kids sitting behind could not open the doors as I had engaged the child lock for safety so had to be opened the gate from outside & then take them out from right door as the left door was not in a position to be opened since car was only 1 feet away from the hill.

I felt so ashamed bcoz of all this, I am not an over confident person/driver but I am sure about my driving skills hence was driving in the hills. Manza shook my confidence or rather should say jolted my confidence.

All passengers got down and then I moved the car few meters and stopped. The left front brake shoe was smelling and rim was too hot to touch.

Called a taxi from the hotel and sent them in taxi. When the taxi came(a pvt swift car) I took the car down & tested swift on the same bend it just responded as a car should respond to the clutch action so it concluded that something is indeed wrong with the brakes or clutch or may be both in my new manza.

I asked the local driver as to what can be the problem, he said it seems to be the clutch plate failure in a NEW MANZA.

Had to wait for the brakes to cool down then drove up slowly to nainital with 3 stops in between to let the brakes cool down they were getting hot with my driving uphill where I am not even needing to apply the brakes. At last when I reached nainital high court u bend the same problem happened & the car refused to move up with a single person no load at all.

So I decided to alter my technique & this time I kept my foot on the clutch (not a recommended method as it will burn the clutch) & kept it pumping & not let it go at one go the car still could not move up at 2000rpm & then I revved up to 3000rpm & that worked to move forward & I then stopped the car at the side of Manu maharani hotel. Left the car to cool down for 1 hour then took it up again the steep hill but with a very sluggish engine power.

I must tell you here that just past new year I have driven on same roads on 30th Dec 2010 with snow fall happening & ice on the roads where tyres are bound to loose traction due to ice formation, but my old Indica V2 2002 model never failed me even at 100,000 kms on odo, climbed the roads without a hitch.

To my knowledge diesel vehicle have zero tolerance with clutch so its important that we don't rev up when foot is on clutch paddle as it will not pass on the power to the wheels.

Yes in this video I am revving up past 3000rpm with no luggage & only me in the car, ideally at 2200rpm the car should move up with good traction on road. Its difficult to explain the real power loss issue by words or video you have to feel that loss while driving only then you can acknowledge the problem.

My main problem is why do I need to rev up excess when other cars move in 1st gear between 1800-2200 rpm.

On the same road I tested a swift & an Indica both diesel cars just to check myself if I have forgotten my driving skills. I took a local mechanic & a driver with me for testing they too could not drive the manza car is surely generating the required power but its not being transferred to the wheels.

After this descriptive post if you or someone else still feels that my driving method is wrong I am ready to listen & be corrected, after all my life will depend on running this car smoothly both for my professional work & my vacations.

By the way there has been a meeting in CSM gurgaon office where GMs of other Tata workshop were called in to discuss this particular case & I have been asked to take the car to Urmil Motors tomorrow morning.

Regards
Ranjan

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Old 11th June 2011, 11:00   #43
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Front left wheel getting too hot to touch is a symptom of brake shoe jamming. Probably this is the reason why the car couldn't move uphill and this is the reason why the car pulls to the left.

Hoist the car on a jack and try to rotate the front left wheel and check if it rotates without too much effort. Do the same on the right side and compare. Do it after the car has been parked overnight and after a drive when it gets hot.
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Old 11th June 2011, 18:14   #44
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Front left wheel getting too hot to touch is a symptom of brake shoe jamming. Probably this is the reason why the car couldn't move uphill and this is the reason why the car pulls to the left.

Hoist the car on a jack and try to rotate the front left wheel and check if it rotates without too much effort. Do the same on the right side and compare. Do it after the car has been parked overnight and after a drive when it gets hot.
Yes it was indeed the left brake pad jamming. Below is the account from Ranjan:

Quote:

Now right up in nainital & during my test with manza for shooting video this brake issue was there & thus you see me revving up to 3000 rpm yet not able to have enough power. This issue was reported to 1800 tata complain number & I was told that the pickup car will come to toe the car. Next day I was busy to make arrangements for the family further travel hence put on hold the car towing to haldwani.

On June 8th we drove to haldwani very carefully with over 4-5 stops & could feel the smell of brake shoes continuously while going down in 3rd gear with not much of braking yet the brake shoes were smelling & the noise was clear heard as tuk ........tuk ........tuk.

When we reached haldwani at Gola Ganpathi motors I showed the video to DET at workshop & told him about the old brake issue he took a small test drive within a silent area of workshop & confirmed that YES there is indeed a problem with the adjusting rod which is making the noise on braking.

Brake pads were cleaned & rubbed with sand paper then a thin lining which originally was there between the disk & shoes were removed to sort out the problem. I drove back to delhi on 8th night itself without any problem or drag or any braking noise which was there.

So I can now conclude that its neither the clutch failure nor the power loss with the engine but something while checking for the alignment isuue was left unfinished not tightened properly hence the problem started at Oberai motors which also failed to detect the 2nd time I reported the problem to them on 4th june.

Now we took 4 friends in the car & went to basement parking which does have a 30-40 slope & the car is not showing any power loss. I need to test this tomorrow in workshop & a full loaded car at 45-60 steep slope to be sure. Now I think we found the cause of this so called clutch failure which appeared as power loss but in reality the brake shoes were getting hot due to drag on the disk thus causing the power loss.

Will confirm my report tomorrow after I test in the workshop.

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Old 11th June 2011, 19:07   #45
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
Now I think we found the cause of this so called clutch failure which appeared as power loss but in reality the brake shoes were getting hot due to drag on the disk thus causing the power loss.

Will confirm my report tomorrow after I test in the workshop.

Unquote
It sure is brake jamming. I watched the second youtube video (outside view) you posted once again just now, its quite revealing at the end. Surface is similar on both sides of the pavement. But we can see that only the right front tyre is making the tyre marks on the surface, the left side is completely clean with no marks. Its because the front left tyre is jammed, and all the power is directed to the right front wheel which has lesser resistance, open differential at play.

Last edited by Sankar : 11th June 2011 at 19:10.
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