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Old 13th June 2011, 15:01   #46
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
... I took the car down & tested swift on the same bend it just responded as a car should respond to the clutch action so it concluded that something is indeed wrong with the brakes or clutch or may be both in my new manza.
The swift has more turbo lag, and if you could drive it well, then obviously its a case specific to your car.

And, yes, as Sankar mentioned the problem could be due to jamming of brake shoe. The original left pulling problem could also be the effect of brake shoe jamming.
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Will confirm my report tomorrow after I test in the workshop.
Please confirm the same. Also, whats the result of the TATA officials meet?.

Its highly disheartening to face issues in a new car. The whole point of buying a new car is lost. Do make sure you get these problems sorted. Wish you many happy miles with the Manza.
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Old 13th June 2011, 16:38   #47
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Hi,

I had similar issues (left side pulling) with my Indigo LX.

I had checked the air pressures, got it Wheel aligned AND balanced on multiple times. I also got the steering oil levels checked.

Hope you can get through this issue soon.

Regards,
NagaSid
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Old 13th June 2011, 17:59   #48
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

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Originally Posted by naga.sid View Post
Hi,

I had similar issues (left side pulling) with my Indigo LX.

I had checked the air pressures, got it Wheel aligned AND balanced on multiple times. I also got the steering oil levels checked.

Hope you can get through this issue soon.

Regards,
NagaSid
Thanks for sharing that NagaSid. Were you able to fix this issue or are you still living with it?
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Old 13th June 2011, 18:24   #49
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Hi AutoIndian,

You are welcome! (you could also click the thank you button)

I wrote to Tata Motors and they picked up the car for repair. It recovered after that.

However, there was a propensity for the car to start leaning to the left on a slightly shaped road (sloping to the left). I guess that was ok to live with.

I sold the car for a Fiesta two months ago.

Rgds,
NagaSid
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Old 18th June 2011, 22:48   #50
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

I am facing the same problem on my Vista Quadrajet.. It was good until 14000 kms...Had a long drive to pondicherry and sorroundings week before and from last week onwards, it wildly pulls to the left.. 5 seconds is enough to crash on some other vehicle.

Did the computerized Wheel alignment at a tyre shop in velachery as I thought TASS wheel alignment will not be up to the mark.. no improvement. The folks xchanged the front tyres only to find that left pulling became right pulling and it is more dangerous now as I could hit median very easily.. the steering has to be kept at 10 degrees always to keep the wheels straight...

Finally went to Concorde Motors, ECR on Friday around 0930 to get this issue sorted out.. After 30 sweet minutes, I was attended by an SA who doesn't seem to have an iota of customer service. Half the time, he was on a call with some one while listening to me (or acting as listening??).. Suggested its a simple wheel alignment problem - waited in the lounge for 1 hr - they did the alignment - went for a test drive with a technician - same issue nothing changed - then they suggested that they could cross change the tyres - front to back and vice versa. - it took another 2 sweet hours for them to swap the tyres and that too after giving them a piece of mind in the reception...

Now another test drive in ECR with another tech.. absolutely no change - its pulling to left...

Back to Concorde, waited for a hour only to find that my vehicle left unattended at quick service pit shop.. It was around 2:30 and damn hungry - given a shout at the SA and went for Lunch.. Back from Lunch, they removed all the tyres and shown that one of the tyre was smaller than other three.. whether it is illusion or I am tired - it is visible like that....and also built a theory that hitting on non-sized speed breakers (which happens if you travel on state roads - with 5 people, no matter how slow you go, you will scrape the speed breaker)..caused bend to the rod connecting exhaust pipe.. and trying the remove the bend..

I completely lost my patience when the SA still doing the same act of not focusing on one customer issue and doing multi tasking while speaking to me.. Left with no option than to shout at him and mentioned that I'll leave the vehicle to get this sorted out, no matter how many days it take..

As of now, they raised a complaint with Good year and got an SMS that GY will inspect on Monday.. Mentioned to the SA, that is immaterial for me whether Good year inspects or not.. as the vehicle is under Contract C type AMC which covers Tyres and battery for first 3 years.. It is Tata's responsibility to change the tyres if needed...

Let's hope I will get my car in another 2-3 days...!!

Cheers
Balaji
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Old 21st June 2011, 17:17   #51
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Further updates (Part-1):

Quote:

"Ok guys its been long gap of 7-8 days which needs update with lot of info. I will try to give date wise account.

on 10th June
the matter was discuss extensively among GMs of various workshops during a training session within Tata CSM (Gurgaon office) & After discussing they concluded that the problem can be sorted out & I got a call from AGM Urmil Motors to get the car atleast once to them since I bought the car from them, I agreed for 11th june meanwhile I got a call from GM Oberai Motors Noida to get the car for a possible solution by replacing the left lower arm. I told him that I want to take the car to Urmil motors as they want to seriously look into this issue to which he happily agreed.

Next day on 11th June
I went to Urmil motors & sat there whole day they said that they have sorted out the left pulling problem & GM of urmil motors didn't gave me any alignment report but said that the caster was out by 1.6, which I cant understand as to when the car went to Oberai motors for alignment it did show correct reading & now another tata workshop say the reading were out.

Nevertheless they "somehow" sorted out the left pulling problem by some jugad (manipulation) & when I rotate the 2 front wheels the left wheel was having friction with brake pads & not moving freely as the right wheel is moving freely. The technician at urmil motors say this is very normal for the left wheel as it generates more power hence get hotter, they are trying to make fool of me knowing I don't know much about cars. Is it true ?

I drove back home 65kms & the left wheel rim was so hot that you will burn the finger if you touch it & the disk is similarly hot so I didn't even try to touch it whereas right wheel is normal hot due to braking & runing, so this confirms that they are not admitting to the fault right from the day 1 due to which the car had left pulling problem now by some manipulation they have sorted out the problem but created another problem which will have some negative effect on the normal running of the car.

On 12 June
Since morning I have been asking for the alignment report from urmil motors & have asked the same from GM urmil motors but on 1st call he was not in workshop, after 2 hours I called at 2pm he said he has just landed in the workshop will soon be emailing me the report & now when I called him up 3.11pm he says the printout cannot be given from the machine as the data is locked unless I get the car back to workshop.

Amazed at his answer I questioned his workshop working methods & asked him as to why the printout was not taken out on 11 june itself he had no answer. Now he says I will manually make the alignment report & email you, I said I want a computer printout, he is adamant that tomorrow you will get it today being Sunday its not possible.

Do you smell something fishy?
If there is the data in the computer as claimed by GM urmil motors of the alignment done on 11 june then cant that be printed out? He is asking me to take the car there at workshop.

Around 4pm I get a handwritten report from GM Urmil motors with after values & no mention of before values making me doubt if they ever did any sort of alignment at all?

BY evening shot a email to tata motors which they replied on 13th giving me the regional official mobile number & email copy marked to him.

13th june
I went to my local tech who has a roadside workshop & asked him the probable cause of left pulling & he siad loking at the tyre that your front tyre seems to be over inflated (he said there can be many other causes but this seems one problem) I said no way the car is now almost aligned to which he voiced his concern that the tyre looks over inflated to his experienced eye, he got a air pressure gauge 3 tyre were 32 psi & left tyre indeed was having 36 psi, surprised by this finding he suggested that we go to a petrol pump & double check there.

To my surprise YES the left tyre was having 36psi & this is the manipulation which Urmil motors did to solve the left pulling problem. We got the tyre pressure back to 32 & test drove & surprisingly the car starts pulling back to left again, aghasted at this discovery I went back to inflate the left tyre again to 36psi & then drove back & the left pulling problem corrects again. So this was the stupid manipulation done by urmil motors to pacify me of the problem which in turn would have caused tyre irregular treading & in no time I would have to change the tyre.

Tata motors this is a serious issue at dealer level, are customers suppose to test & cross verify each & everything your dealer say & do?

On15th June
I went to meet GM of Oberai motors & told him the whole story he said please bring the car & they will replace the left lower arm, I asked him some detailed question as to understand the problem.

I questioned him if after replacing 1 part does not solve the problem what will he do then? He categorically replied that Tata motors senior management people are involved & aware about this issue & are commited to solve this problem & he has all approvals to change the parts as required.

Somewhat convinced I agreed to get the car on 16th June

16th June
Sat there whole day hoping to get the car in perfect condition. 2 senior technician along with DET were deputed on the job.

1.Left lower arm was replaced & alignment done went for the test drive but problem remained as it is, car happily pulled to left again.

2.Left knuckle was replaced (its a complex assembly where lot of controls are joining too a lot of time in opening)& alignment done went for the test drive but problem remained & got worse, car happily pulled to left again.

3.Shocked with the 2 replacements now shocker bushes along with left & right shockers were replaced just to ensure that right one is not pushing either, alignment done went for the test drive but problem remained as it is, car happily pulled to left again.

All efforts gone in Vain whole day past by laughing at our efforts I was sad as before but my inherent nature does not let me go down in crises that's when I discussed with Mr. Rajgopalan GM of Oberai motors to now think out of the box as all their SOP (standard operating procedure as per Manza manual) methods had failed to even locate the problem leave alone the solution to the problem.

At this point I said jokingly to the team members
"Even if I consider all tata workshop people are dumb & fool, all fools cant commit the same foolishness exactly the same way dealing with the same problem, there has to be a fool who thinks differently or act differently" THe team members agreed

This is when I discussed with team about my discussion with DET of Gola Ganpathi motors Haldwani who acknowledged the suspension problem & said that this problem can indeed be controlled to some extent by realigning the cross member (I think its called longi)& shifting it by few mm to its right, he even did this once but this has to be a manual procedure of testing as this is a non standard procedure & there is no machine for checking the alignment of cross member. For getting this perfect it will require a lot of time & several road test on highway.

We tried calling up to discuss the issue with DET, but his phone was not reachable so I gave the number to the team members & came back home with the car dead tired, had a long shower bath cooled down opened a can of bear & started thinking out of the box solution if the cross member shifting plan also fails what then?

Since I have been discussing this issue with whole lot of automotive experts I have compiled a lot of data+ video from national & international members who willingly have spent time to solve my problem.

Chilled bear did its magic after going through lot of data & forum post & email exchanged 2 ideas clearly were thought of.

1. We all have been concentrating to left pulling but something might be instead pushing from the right side so the problem may not be on the left side but the right side.

2. We have been getting front wheel aligned with the rear & as per my knowledge rear wheel are fixed so what if rear wheel are fixed wrongly by few mm? This would make errors on front wheel alignment.

From my point of view these both were absurd thoughts from a non automotive person, but I strongly believe absurdity allows us to push the limit of our present knowledge. Two examples I can give, Its was absurd of Newton to think "why does an apple always fall down?" hence we researched gravitational force.

Some stupid fellow thought in 1970s "can a machine (mainframe computer)talk to another machine kept in another room or building somehow?" today due to that absurd thought we have internet with wi-fi & optical fiber. So evolution happens due to this absurdity & its a must else we will be extinct.

Armed with these 2 absurd thought I went to Oberai motors on 17th june
Its a long post hence will continue in 2nd part.

Regards
Ranjan"

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Old 21st June 2011, 17:45   #52
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Part-2:

Quote:

"Continuation from the 1st part 17th June On 17th june I reached at Oberai motors & by that time the GM had spoken to DET Gola Ganpathi motors & told me that this so called solution is non standard method which we don't recommend but if I give approval to do so we will go ahead, I STRONGLY suggested YES since all has failed this is our last hope.

They proceeded with the cross member adjustment, 1st & 2nd time adjustment plus alignment were tested on road without me 3rd time adjustment I went along on expressway approx 30km round trip, the car indeed reduced the left pull but still its there considerably, this is when we spoke to DET again at Gola Ganpathi & he suggested front tyre to be swapped we did that again alignment checked & went for the same road 30km round trip, problem remained as it is.

As our last attempt the cross member was once again adjusted & alignment done problem at last reduced to 60-70% now, the car atleast moves to some distance straight before pulling to left & then we tested on same 30kms round trip.

I requested for a test drive of another manza, just to check if that does the same left pulling & we went to same 30 kms test drive & this test drive manza also pulls to left so it was concluded by me that THE MANZA PULLS TO LEFT period & we have been trying to fix a problem which all manza are showing, mind you I test drove 3-4 manza at urmil motors they all were drifting to left, I have spoken to other manza users who report the same problem too. Even Vista users are facing this issue with no solution.

At this point we discussed how my old Indica V2 never showed this problem where as manza on same roads is giving me hell of a time. The only difference between the 2 cars suspension is that in Indica the suspension is mounted on to the body where as in manza the body sits on the suspension, in both cases they have the similar front (MacPherson strut) & rear fixed suspension.

By this time it was late evening we sat again with Mr. Rajgoplan to file the report to tata motors so it can be escalated right at the manufacturing & design team level. After filing the report I was assured that by tomorrow the answer will be comming so I will be updated but that did not happen as next day was Saturday.

Overall 5 attempts to fine tune the cross member & alignment gets us 70% correction now & I drove on expressway back home testing the car at various speeds, the car now is stable at least on lower speeds, earlier it was pulling to left quite fast now its still pulling but it does carry on straight to some distance (30-40mt)after that it starts pulling to left.

19th June
I spent whole Sunday again hunting the left pulling problem & possible causes & came across 2 good links, I request some knowledgeable members to read this & see if a possible solution can be found (I cant understand it much)
Fixing Wheel Alignment Problems FIXING WHEEL ALIGNMENT PROBLEMS

Diagnosing Rack and Pinion Steering Problems
Diagnosing Rack and Pinion Steering Problems - Troubleshooting Vibrations, Car Tire Wear, Steering Difficulty and Wheel Looseness

Sunday night I received a call that factory engineer who is in charge of car production will be coming on Monday morning from Pune.

20th june
Mr. Mayur Vyas from the factory was briefed of the entire exercise & he listened to me patiently & then asked me to go on a test drive along with CRM Tata motors Ms. Sumedha. I drove with 4 people on the same 30 kms road the car pulled happily to the left & both Tata officials acknowledged the left pulling behavior as not so normal on plain roads. We discussed the road taper to left & its effect on steering etc.

During the test drive I drove 100-120kmph & showed that the steering is having some EXTRA input from somewhere & it wobbles left / right which is causing eventually the left drift. This was my finding of Sunday's research that steering can also cause this problem. The steering should not have any other extra input accept from my hand but in my case I quite evidently showed this left/right wobbling to the tata team members.

Tata engineer updated the manza design team & consulted with them. Once back in workshop Mr. Mayur took the car for checking the alignment & the following was done.

1. My car was aligned & specifically the rear alignment was checked too against the factory values.
2. Then a new manza was checked for alignment as per the factory values both rear & front values of my car & new manza were matching so that ruled out the rear misalignment.
3. the new manza was taken a test drive it happily pulled to the left confirming that all manza pull to left. (Total 6 cars tested during this course)

The findings were reported to the manza design team in Pune & based on further suggestions a maruti desire was tested by the tata team & they reported to me that even that happily puled to the left. (no alignment checked for that car)

So a big question emerged, are all modern cars suppose to pull left even on fairly straight roads? if yes how much distance should they cover at 80kmph before they pull to the left?

We sat & discussed the finding of various test & tata team members said that they are taking this findings seriously & would need some time before the design team can give us the answers, from their side this issues is on top priority.

Now I must say that I have never experienced tata customer service as my
previous cars didn't ever bother me so much that I ever had to escalate the matter to such higher levels. I have been told in past 1 month that I might have been given an accidental car or a refurbished car, YES it might be possible but mind you that urmil motors asked me to get any car from their yard & I picked 2 cars but unfortunately they both had the same left pulling problem hence I stuck to the present car only.

Looking at the car & the under body it does not appear to me at least that its an accidental car, if indeed it is then its so well disguised that no one can detect it & I don't have faith on workshops to do such an exemplary coverup so my personal belief is that all manza & vista are having this problem its just that my kind of driving style has precipitated this problem to a much higher level. There are many manza owners who said that they don't have this problem I would surely like to test those cars for a trial run.
95% of my driving is on highway & expressway I drive or rather cruise at constant speeds of 100-120kmph on expressway never rev up unnecessarily hence braking is gentle too. Once in 5th gear the entire expressway is covered in that gear maintaining the speed. No wonder my car is giving 22kmpl since the day 1 I am driving at 80kmph only for testing I have done over 100kmph (at least something is good about manza)

I move out at odd times for my work 6-7am in the morning or late afternoon at 2-3pm so I am mostly getting empty roads to drive on, returning back is late in the night anytime between 9-12PM again empty roads.

In my own thinking (I might be wrong) macpherson strut as implemented in vista & manza has inherent limitation & it seems that its the nature of this suspension to roll on to the left side, here is a parallel example for easy understanding.

Lets say I complain the ball is rolling & cant stay still, now this is the very basic nature of the ball to roll it can stay still for a while on a flat surface but due to inertia it indeed will roll to side whereas a cube in the same situation will not roll even on a fairly inclined surface.

So you see that I have been complaining about the car pulling to the left even on a stretch of road where the incline is clearly to the right yet the car was going to the left. This might be the limitation of the way the suspension has been implemented in vista & manza. In my close observation after 70% problem correction is that as the car is moving the car gets into a rhythmic shocker moments & that creates a wave form which needs some release of energy & that is released in from of EXTRA input to the steering thus causing this left pull.

Specifically the left pull since most roads are 2-5 inclined to the left.

I may be completely wrong in my analysis but surely would want to have an answer though I may not keep this car as it is "still" not so stable when fully loaded & driving at speeds over 100-120kmph, it does not inspire confidence which I need in the car.

I still will wait for few more days & want to give tata motors & its engineers a chance as they have tried their best till now to solve the problem, they were slow to respond but they finally responded & I don't see any unwillingness on their part. They acknowledged the problem & filed a joint investigation report on the matter to the higher management today asking few questions to the manza design team too.

All I can do is wish Tata motors & its engineers best of luck that they come out with a robust solution but before that they still have to find a probable cause of this left pulling.

Good Luck to all involved in this problem.



Regards
Ranjan"

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Old 21st June 2011, 18:17   #53
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Whew!!.. that was a loooong post.

Question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
when I rotate the 2 front wheels the left wheel was having friction with brake pads & not moving freely as the right wheel is moving freely.
Is the problem mentioned above sorted out?

Also, if its not sorted out, it can cause symptoms like below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
the steering is having some EXTRA input from somewhere

The below mentioned is absolutely crap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
... The technician at urmil motors say the left wheel generates more power hence get hotter...

Last edited by dhanushs : 21st June 2011 at 18:18.
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Old 21st June 2011, 18:22   #54
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

^^How was this adjustment done? Does this cross member have a "slot" inbuilt in it?

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Old 21st June 2011, 18:28   #55
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Wow!! I am speechless. What an ordeal. I too have suffered from this left alignment syndrome on a brand new car, in my case a Chevy Spark.

I had a similar problem where the car went a few metres and then shifted left. The authorized service guys had no clue whatsoever for the first 1.5 years of my ownership and only after taking my car to a guy at Nerul, who has only been aligning wheels for last 30 years, that too without a computerised machine and any of the latest gizmos, he showed me the real problem.

The left strut that was fixed to the body under the bonnet by a plastic/rubber cap had a broken plastic/rubber mount and I could easily see that the left strut was having a lot more play than the completely still right one inside the engine bay. Due to this no amount of wheel alignment could get rid of the problem.

Told this problem to the GM service guys who then took the mount to a lathe and fixed a new strut and strut cap and lo the problem was gone.

But you say that all the Manzas turn left at the same rate as yours so I am not sure if there is an inherent design flaw or what. But yes when I talked to that wheel alignment guy he said that a lot of new cars, and he singled out the VW Polo as a special mention, have a liking to go left but as long as there is no uneven tyre wear one should not be bothered. Also the most problamatic car amongst the new ones, is the Maruti Eeco.
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Old 22nd June 2011, 10:30   #56
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Hi AutoIndian,
That's a long story and quite informative.. But one thing that haunts me..In your case, it's a new Manza, so there is a possibility that design or its revision could be an issue.. whereas I face similar problem on my vista..(I just recollect the video you posted earlier and that reflects my problem as well)...

I had no issues at all for the past 17 months (14K Kms) with Vista and suddenly from last 2 weeks back this wild left pulling happened..!! My car is at Concorde Motors, Chennai (ECR) for the 5th Consecutive day and hearing different stories from SA at regular intervals...

Let's hope that they apply the lessons learnt to get my Vista back...

Cheers
Balaji
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Old 22nd June 2011, 11:48   #57
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

@asbalaji, I faced a similar problem in my Vista QJet after the wheel alignment, balancing and rotation done by TASC during the 4th Service. It's 25 months old and had done 18900 kms. It started pulling to the left, wobbled at slow and medium speeds. Moreover steering started shaking at medium speeds and to top it all I could hear increased rubbing noise. TASC people took one whole day and somehow fixed the left pulling, but couldn't fix rest of the problems. They had done a couple of alignments, balancing, rotation and edge swapping. Finally they informed me that the problem is with the Goodyear OE tyres and can be fixed only if tyres are replaced. I was not convinced with their words, as there was no visible uneven wear and almost 3/4th of the tread left out in all the tyres. I took delivery and decided to check the alignment at a tyre shop outside.

It just took 20 mins for the local tyre shop technician to fix the problems. Before the alignment, I just informed the technician that I could feel some difference with the steering and did not mention any specific problems. He found out there was a difference in the toe readings and fixed. After the alignment, he took a test drive and informed me that there is slight wobbling and steering shaking, the same earlier problem. He then swapped both front tyres with the rear, did a balancing for front tyres alone, confidently said the problem is fixed and the car is ready. After that there is no wobbling, no steering shaking and the rubbing noise had gone down significantly.
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Old 22nd June 2011, 17:51   #58
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Quote:
Originally Posted by asbalaji View Post
I had no issues at all for the past 17 months (14K Kms) with Vista and suddenly from last 2 weeks back this wild left pulling happened..!! My car is at Concorde Motors, Chennai (ECR) for the 5th Consecutive day and hearing different stories from SA at regular intervals...

Let's hope that they apply the lessons learnt to get my Vista back.
Balaji did you recently hit a pothole at high speed or bumped over a stone/boulder or a hump. Car pulling to one side clearly means that the wheel alignment has been disturbed. Can you recollect when & why this pulling started, as the car was perfectly well for 14K kms.

What is the car doing at TASC for 5 days, that's too much. Hope they have not tampered with your car. Please pull it out from there asap & visit a reputed tyre/wheel alignment shop. Get the wheel alignment done from there in front of your eyes & ask for the computer printout showing the various values before & after alignment. This should fix your issue.
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Old 23rd June 2011, 00:35   #59
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

That's a long ordeal you went through. Are there slots to change the cross member position in the body or you let them drill holes for the same ?
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Old 24th June 2011, 13:05   #60
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Default Re: New Tata Manza pulling to the left

Finally, I went to Concorde yesterday morning with the intention to get my car back...It took sweet 3 hours for them to get it ready..SA mentioned that they swapped the faulty tyre with the spare one to check and left pulling problem gone now.. Also the hard clutch problem I had reported earlier was sorted out as well. When they tested the clutch with pressure gauge (or some device like that) - the reading has shown 19.. It should be in the range of 12-13.. They opened the clutch assembly and fixed the issue. Now Vista clutch is as soft as Figo's clutch (my in-law's car).

I must admit, that the SA who had initially raised my tempers last friday, shown much interest over the past few days to deliver my car with the reported problems fixed. Appreciate his efforts..!!

The tyre issue is still open - Good year as expected inspected and given the report that tyre is good and closed the ticket.. I will not leave them until I get replacement as it is very evident that replacing tyre solved the left pulling issue.

On this forum, mixed feedback on Vista.. While I admit, its a good attempt by Tata to make a car with European standards, they should also ensure to focus on finer details.. Like Good year useless tyres which is the reason for wobbling, side pulling after few 1000 kms, less quality rubber beadings etc.,.. otherwise I am one happy owner of Vista..


Regards
Balaji
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