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Old 13th August 2011, 04:57   #46
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

@ Poitive: thank you for your most valuable inputs (Sorry, no thanks icon on my blackberry)

Based on your (and Keyur) inputs I have already received quotes for the car and will go for the test drive soon.

But yesterday I came across an old thread (sorry, unable to give a link thanks to my BB), where Magnum owners consistently faced the following problems as soon as they clicked between 25 - 35 K kms,
- Brake issues (ABS sensors, "tic-tic" noise from front, brakes fading)
- Fuel pump issues (hope this is sorted out)
- Unavailability of parts with many dealers
- Dealers honouring warranty claims after a big hue & cry

As you may already know, I love driving and in the past 4 years I have clocked over 1.5 Lakh kms (1.2 in Fusion, 0.3 in my Santro and 0.1 in my Corolla). All the cars I own are more like fill, shut and drive. No niggling problems whatsoever (touchwood). I do take care of the cars very well and expect peace of mind owning them.

As all my cars are due for replacements (Corolla - sold last month; Hopefully will be replaced by New Fortuner), I do not want, rather, I'm worried if I would end up buying a car with niggling problems (reason I don't want to go in for TATA or MSIL). IMO, owning a car should never be a compromise. Like I said in the other "old" thread, looking at the issues reported by many real-time users of the Magnum, my thoughts on owning this wonderful machine took a big dent. :-(

Replacing a Fusion is tough and I hope I land up purchasing a good vehicle (hopefully the Magnum) in the next few months.
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Old 16th August 2011, 22:56   #47
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

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- Brake issues (ABS sensors, "tic-tic" noise from front, brakes fading)
The tic tic noise or the rumbling happens when :
1. ABS kicks in
2. The sensors go haywire resulting in the brakes pulsating rapidly

This can happen in any ABS car. IMHO, you may opt for the non ABS version (LS) or if you are not that concerned about having ABS, you may just pull out the ABS fuse. Non ABS version does not have all these issues.

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Originally Posted by MAS View Post

- Fuel pump issues (hope this is sorted out)
Sorted out for post 2008 cars

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Originally Posted by MAS View Post

- Unavailability of parts with many dealers
There is no issue of shortage of parts for the Magnum. Verified this before going in for my car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAS View Post

- Dealers honouring warranty claims after a big hue & cry
There are 2 things :
1. If you have been a really bad boy during the purchase process or are by default very picky, irritating, nagging etc, people will not be cooperative.
2. Buying a car is as good as marrying a girl - you marry the family, so as long as you ensure that you maintain a good rapport, the same people who create issues for others will go out of their way to help you out!

There are no generic niggles as such, there are only some specific cases (other than the tyre and the fuel pump issue which was solved)
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Old 17th August 2011, 00:57   #48
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

Thank you very much for your inputs Keyur. I have almost decided on the Optra Magnum as there is no other car which I feel would fit my requirement. I just hope the niggling problems keep away from my purchase. Magnum has become all the more important because my Fusion let me down today, third time this year. Seems like the radiator fan has decided not to spin.

To cut a long story short, I have to decide on a car pretty soon. My eyes are on the Magnum and I hope the next few weeks would be crucial. Few questions;

- My daily commute is not very high, but I travel a lot on the highways and easily cover between 400 - 900 kms a day. This sums up to about 30 K kms a year. With service intervals at every 5 K, I would go mad taking the car for servicing every alternate month. Is there any way to service the car at longer intervals, Say 10 K kms?
- The quote I received was for diamond white and the price after discount is higher than the price mentioned on the web (non metallic colours). Is the quote right? How much discount is realistically achievable?
- I have driven the non-BS-IV version many times, but felt the rear suspension is too weak as it scraped every speed breaker. Has this been rectified in BS-IV?

Guys, your inputs are most valuable as I'm in a the process of "buy" or "let go situation
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Old 17th August 2011, 03:13   #49
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAS View Post
@ Poitive: thank you for your most valuable inputs (Sorry, no thanks icon on my blackberry)

Based on your (and Keyur) inputs I have already received quotes for the car and will go for the test drive soon.
You are welcome MAS. You too had comments on the Choosing thread when I had just started that thread

Great! (that you are going to have a TD and finalize)

I had missed this post MAS (quoting helps, but you were on a BB)

In your TD, do try out the handling aspect too.
Do NOT equate a soft suspension to poor handling. This one handles very well for a soft suspension.
Also try and check the tyre pressure in the TD. About 30 or so after driving a bit should be good.

If you need a place to put your TD experience, may I suggest the Driven! thread?!

Quote:
But yesterday I came across an old thread (sorry, unable to give a link thanks to my BB), where Magnum owners consistently faced the following problems as soon as they clicked between 25 - 35 K kms,
- Brake issues (ABS sensors, "tic-tic" noise from front, brakes fading)
- Fuel pump issues (hope this is sorted out)
- Unavailability of parts with many dealers
- Dealers honouring warranty claims after a big hue & cry
Keyur has answered most. Will add my Rs 0.02/-

Brakes have been an issue in the Cruze too. Reports of issues at 20k It probably has to do with:
(a) Heavy cars with a lot of torque
(b) Increased braking, given how people may drive such performance cars
(c) Poor quality parts

Given the overall cheap cost of parts, I had not worried too much about this. I anyway went in for an LS which doesn't have ABS (LT with ABS was probably a better choice though)

Fuel pump issues were with a batch of cars/pumps in 2008-09 or so. It was identified by some color of sticker on the pump.

From what I gather, there were some issues in getting them changed (reported by @Rodeo, IIRC). But like many manufacturers, one needs to push things a bit. My guess is that it took a while for the GM/dealers to realize that it was an issue for the batch, hence there may not have been immediate replacement free of cost, in such cases.

Parts - There were reports of Corsa Sail parts being easily available ( by @libranof1987) and Matiz (@mdsaab) IIRC. Optra should not be an issue (fingers crossed!). Do share the links of such experiences MAS.

Warranty issues - Again, please share the links. Were they do to with the Fuel pump or something else?

Rust - You had mentioned this before. Later I came across a thread which talks about it:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...nty-optra.html (Rust in 3 doors Under warranty in optra)

BTW, there are reports of a Honda City with rust, on the same thread, too.

Quote:
As all my cars are due for replacements (Corolla - sold last month; Hopefully will be replaced by New Fortuner), I do not want, rather, I'm worried if I would end up buying a car with niggling problems (reason I don't want to go in for TATA or MSIL). IMO, owning a car should never be a compromise. Like I said in the other "old" thread, looking at the issues reported by many real-time users of the Magnum, my thoughts on owning this wonderful machine took a big dent. :-(
Which "old" thread are you referring to @MAS?

BTW, the Tbhp Test Drives section rates Optra's reliability as "Excellent", though the service experience as inconsistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAS View Post
I just hope the niggling problems keep away from my purchase.
Make sure you keep away from an Old piece and manage a one fresh from the factory and take delivery as soon as it is delivered.

@Torquedo has done some excellent and hard work on decoding GM VIN numbers. I think it was put up on Keyur's thread also. That should help.

Quote:
- My daily commute is not very high, but I travel a lot on the highways and easily cover between 400 - 900 kms a day. This sums up to about 30 K kms a year.
Magnum ought to be wonderful for the highway. Have taken it to triple digit speeds a few times. It's sweet spot starts there!

The Post BS4 ones are good in the city too.

Quote:
With service intervals at every 5 K, I would go mad taking the car for servicing every alternate month. Is there any way to service the car at longer intervals, Say 10 K kms?
Oil change is anyway at 10k, in case you were looking at Synthetic Oil options. No idea how you could take the interval to 10k. It may not be a good idea to play with your warranty/Chevy Promise.

Quote:
- The quote I received was for diamond white and the price after discount is higher than the price mentioned on the web (non metallic colours). Is the quote right? How much discount is realistically achievable?
One of the white colors was about 10k extra.

Discount - There are reports of 30-40k discount.

My understanding is that dealers are pushed to pick up a certain number of cars every month/quarter. Based on their money blocked, and need to sell, they'll offer you discounts. It, of course will also be dependent on your negotiation skills. Put up a querry in the New Car prices thread and @mdsaab or someone else may give you some good ideas

Quote:
- I have driven the non-BS-IV version many times, but felt the rear suspension is too weak as it scraped every speed breaker. Has this been rectified in BS-IV?
No idea on this one mate, but it doesn't seem to be an issue in the ones I have driven. @Torquedo has driven more different ones than most. You may want to PM him. He is a pretty detail oriented person and should be able to help.

Quote:
Guys, your inputs are most valuable as I'm in a the process of "buy" or "let go situation
With it's cheap maintenance, supposed excellent reliability, ultra cheap initial price (considering what you are getting), Good FE (especially for the size/engine), Sofa like seats, it makes a strong case.
Given your highway usage, it seems compelling!

I wonder what your other options are.

PS: This may not be the right place to discuss all this @MAS. The Mods may see it as hijacking the thread. You may want to report your posts.

@Mods, Please move MAS's queries to a new/appropriate thread. The Driven! thread?

Last edited by Poitive : 17th August 2011 at 03:19. Reason: Rust point.
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Old 22nd August 2011, 14:49   #50
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

And i thought i was only sufferer of GM brand: here's my mail to Karl Slym MD GM INDIA..I completely emphathise with Sreeji and my car is 10 day old

Greetings Mr.Slym,

Hope this mail finds you in good cheer and it is rather unfortunate that I had to introduce myself as a sour customer of Chevrolet despite changing my loyalty of 11 years from Maruti Suzuki as recently as 8 days back (yes, I’ve driven Maruti’s all my life and boy, do they know to make hassle free cars!!). Please allow me to provide specific details, I bought my Chevy Optra Magnum LT (Diamond White) on Aug 10th 2011 from TRIDENT CHEVROLET, BANGALORE (Kalyan Nagar) and during this 8 days I have encountered inadequacy, myriad of problems concerning Speedometer, AC, wind screen wipers. To unveil the horror, my first ride out of the showroom was indicated by a non functional speedometer which was attributed to a simple loosened cable slot when brought up with the concerned sales person. 5 days after the delivery (I had driven the car for just 2 days without knowing what speed I was driving at and I was out on Holiday owing to long weekend in another car) reach the showroom to get the problem fixed and I was made to wait for 4 hours only to be told to come back after 6 days!!!! Wait a minute, 6 days???? I was told the VSS (Vehicle speed sensor) was overexcited and had stop working because I was told it works like a human brain, Brain dead indeed it was in a BRAND NEW CAR!!!!! Am promised by the staff at TRIDENT CHEVROLET that the entire Gear box unit will be replaced as the sensor’s brain also extends and connects the gear box and an order has been placed, approved and installed by next Tuesday (23rd Aug) but I have a very legitimate and a plausible question to you, which am hoping you will explain.

1. HOW CAN THIS “LITTLE BRAIN” CALLED VSS (vehicle speed sensor) GO KAPUT IN A BRAND NEW CAR? Well, now am very dubious of the quality control checks of Chevrolet already and why didn’t the PDI show up indicating this faulty aspect?
Yesterday Chevrolet once again catastrophically failed me and that too on an expressway, Its monsoon season as you may know in India and I decided to take my family out on a drive and while we were cruising comfortably (my guess is I was doing around 80kmph, it’s a guess, as the little brain is dead you see) and the AC stops working fogging the windows and jeopardizing the safety of my family and I had my 3 year old niece at the back seat, I pull aside and tried my best to get it to life but it was adamant as hell and wouldn’t start to work. Climate control AC isn’t a new thing to me and my friend who was tailing me in his fiat Linea (beautiful car) tried his hand in resurrecting my car’s AC but to no avail. Then I put my family and the kids in my friend’s car and drove straight to TRIDENT CHEVROLET and what happened was spooky, the AC started to work !!! After waiting for one hour I was told that there is no problem whatsoever and all I could do was to hope for the best and left.

2. CAN YOU HELP ME UNDERSTAND THIS ENIGMA CALLED “moody AC syndrome” in my 8 day old car?
Lastly, the wiper blade (Brrrrr, brrrrr that’s the noise it makes while wiping) the rubber was hard and the left side wiper would leave streaks which is an indication that contact with the windscreen is not proper and this was quietly replaced by your service staff.

3. Usually and am sure you will agree, in dusty conditions the wiper blade tends to harden but not in an enclosed 8 day old car. Why was the car fitted with old, hardened wiper blades?

4. Customer service – The guy who sold my car claims to be in meetings 9 hours a day whenever I call him, am sure you have a winner and a fast tracker except that I have now given up on my futile and foolhardy quest to receive any kind of service from this ever busy bumble bee. One point of appreciation here, my communication conduit also consist of another person called Mr.Ravindra who I really appreciate for his professional behavior (absolutely no sarcasm) it is only because of this guy, my hope is little intact with CHEVROLET.
Mr.Slym, for all the dark humor that you read, I am tremendously worried about these incidents and I expect a sincere, honest reply on the questions raised above. It will be great if Chevrolet gives me the feeling that my friends were indeed wrong in suggesting me Fiat Linea (Beautiful car) against the Monster called OPTRA MAGNUM.

Last edited by Jaggu : 22nd August 2011 at 14:57. Reason: Removing [Font] tags, please avoid Copy Paste from external font editors, also do a Preview before Submitting new posts.
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Old 22nd August 2011, 23:30   #51
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

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I completely emphathise with Sreeji and my car is 10 day old

Gulp.. two days prior I recommended an Optra to a fellow BHPain on his what car thread!

Is it possible that you and the OP received the cars from a same defective batch? All though I would not call your vehicle a lemon, the issues you mention shouldn't be present in a new car. Especially some fancy sensor going bust! And man, gimme a break, AC behaving erratically. Don't let them off the hook so easily. IMO, you should push for full cash back/replacement.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 06:24   #52
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

@dnw

I pity your situation. A brand new Magnum giving so much trouble is disheartening. I had short-listed this car as my next purchase.

Did you check the VIN of the car and find out the month & year of manufacture? If Chevy is serious about India, you should get a reply from the MD and a flurry of calls from Chevy India and the dealer. I have seen many SP who are not bothered to get back after closing the sales.

Keep us updated on your quest to get your Magnum road worthy. Wish you good luck.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 15:32   #53
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

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Did you check the VIN of the car and find out the month & year of manufacture? If Chevy is serious about India, you should get a reply from the MD and a flurry of calls from Chevy India and the dealer. I have seen many SP who are not bothered to get back after closing the sales.

Keep us updated on your quest to get your Magnum road worthy. Wish you good luck.
@MAS
Yes, after i wrote the mail with 3 hours 2 guys from GM India rang me and i detailed the problem to which they said they will look into it with utmost seriousness and that a regular update will be sent to their MD (Although given the seniority of the MD, i guess he didnt wanted to reply to my mails- is my assumption) the car will be handed over to me this thursday and only after few long drives will i be able to determine their workmanship. FIngers crossed, will update you guys in couple of days..
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Old 23rd August 2011, 22:44   #54
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

Good to hear about their quick response. I sincerely hope that the problem gets sorted out soon and you are able to enjoy your beast. Please keep us updated.

It would immensely benefit the community if you could share the email address of Mr. Slym. I'm test driving the Magnum tomorrow. Let us see the outcome of it.
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Old 24th August 2011, 03:56   #55
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

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And i thought i was only sufferer of GM brand: here's my mail to Karl Slym MD GM INDIA..I completely emphathise with Sreeji and my car is 10 day old
@dnw, It would feel horrible to go through this on a new car. Getting a car is an experience with a lot of emotions and expectations attached (especially for Tbhpians).

This thread may be the appropriate place to discuss the issue, since it is about problems with the Optra Magnum.

I too recently bought a Magnum, after some deliberations (Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan under 12L thread), a long wait. Will put up a link to this thread and issue in my ownership report for others to link up here as well.

(in case you would like to visit the ownership report, the link is : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...let-optra.html (Finally! “Driven!” & “Chosen a Diesel Sedan” – The VVS Magnum (Chevrolet Optra)) )

I haven't been able to go through the issues involved enough. But some points to consider are, how long back the car was produced and when it was dispatched from the plant at Halol to the local dealer. Though it should not be the case, there seem to be more problems with cars lying around with dealers for a while. They also get used as TD vehicles (more so in the case of Optra, since most dealerships don't have dedicated TD vehicles at all, given it's low volumes and it being around in the market for as long).

What is the date of production of the car based on VIN?

Any idea of when the car was invoiced to the dealer?

(it is there in the paperwork of the car with the local dealer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAS View Post
Did you check the VIN of the car and find out the month & year of manufacture? If Chevy is serious about India, you should get a reply from the MD and a flurry of calls from Chevy India and the dealer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnaturallywired View Post
@MAS
Yes, after i wrote the mail with 3 hours 2 guys from GM India rang me and i detailed the problem to which they said they will look into it with utmost seriousness and that a regular update will be sent to their MD (Although given the seniority of the MD, i guess he didnt wanted to reply to my mails- is my assumption) the car will be handed over to me this thursday and only after few long drives will i be able to determine their workmanship. FIngers crossed, will update you guys in couple of days..
After all the heartbreak, this is encouraging.

Sreeji's incident came up just before I was about to go for the car. It put brakes on the decision for a while. Things were put into perspective by another Bhpian (@Oxyzen) with a short remark about how these things seem to happen with most car manufacturers and probably more frequently. and the member is an owner of the Vento, presumably very fond of it, and is seen across various threads giving fairly unbiased comments.

At the time of taking the decision, what was more important for me, was how responsive the company management is likely to be, in case I did have trouble. Reports about it were encouraging. Your experience too is similar.

I have little belief in how dealerships are run. Is a good idea to take a fresh-from-the-factory piece, and take delivery as soon as they arrive. Don't think enough importance is given to PDI's by the dealers in general.

Hope your issues get resolved very soon. Do keep us updated.

PS: Optimist's case seems to have something to do with improper care at the dealer's end. Sreeji's probably partly due to not leaving enough fuel in the car. Given this, I got some fuel into the car, when I went to check the car on it's delivery to the dealer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinj12 View Post
Is it possible that you and the OP received the cars from a same defective batch? All though I would not call your vehicle a lemon, the issues you mention shouldn't be present in a new car. Especially some fancy sensor going bust! And man, gimme a break, AC behaving erratically. Don't let them off the hook so easily. IMO, you should push for full cash back/replacement.
There is a possibility of an issue with the batch. We had one with the fuel pump sometime in 2008-09 IIRC. They were eventually replaced by the company free of cost, from what I gather (at times with some difficulty).

BTW, I was recommended to keep at least 1/4 tank (preferably 1/3 tank) of fuel in the car at all times - supposedly good for the car, saves the fuel pump and aids in better FE. Not sure how true this is, but I intend to do it this way. Not difficult, given a 60 litre tank on the Magnum.
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Old 24th August 2011, 04:38   #56
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

@Poitive - I have also been advised about keeping enough fuel in a Diesel car so as to prevent air bubbles getting into the fuel system. Ford has a DTE (Distance to Empty) meter and the low fuel indicator glows when the DTE reaches 80 kms. I have driven the car till the DTE showed 10 kms without any problem. But it is pretty risky. I'm not sure how it improves FE for a diesel car. Magnum's 60 liter tank is a boon for highway drives. Fingers crossed for the TD today.
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Old 24th August 2011, 13:59   #57
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

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I'm not sure how it improves FE for a diesel car. Magnum's 60 liter tank is a boon for highway drives. Fingers crossed for the TD today.
I too have no idea about how it may help FE. But have often noticed diesel engines getting a tad rougher with lesser fuel. At times even Petrols. That does suggest some change in how the vehicle operates.

All the best for the TD. Hope you remember the suggestions on taking the TD we shared on some other thread (Verna?). This one hits it sweet operating range after about 80-100kmph, when some others are already across theirs!! Even feels more agile then.
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Old 24th August 2011, 16:56   #58
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

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Originally Posted by Poitive View Post

BTW, I was recommended to keep at least 1/4 tank (preferably 1/3 tank) of fuel in the car at all times - supposedly good for the car, saves the fuel pump and aids in better FE. Not sure how true this is, but I intend to do it this way. Not difficult, given a 60 litre tank on the Magnum.
Not true! I have gone upto the E mark and no issues there. Just ensure that it does not go dry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAS View Post
I have also been advised about keeping enough fuel in a Diesel car so as to prevent air bubbles getting into the fuel system. I'm not sure how it improves FE for a diesel car. Magnum's 60 liter tank is a boon for highway drives. Fingers crossed for the TD today.
I don't think that it has anything to do with the FE. If air does get caught in the pump, you need to bleed the pump. There is a no hassles process to do this in case you face these issues.

Check this (Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAS View Post
I'm test driving the Magnum tomorrow.
All the best (or probably, hope it was good, as this could be a late post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
This one hits it sweet operating range after about 80-100kmph, when some others are already across theirs!! Even feels more agile then.
Also do not forget to ensure that you are below 2000 rpm in second gear - then gradually accelerate till you hit 2100 rpm where the turbo kicks in - enjoy the feeling of the 'warp zone' effect!

The meaty region for this car is from around 2000 rpm till about 3500 rpm. Stay in this region in gears 3,4 and 5 and have fun!
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Old 24th August 2011, 20:13   #59
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

Quote:
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It would immensely benefit the community if you could share the email address of Mr. Slym. I'm test driving the Magnum tomorrow. Let us see the outcome of it.
karl.slym@gm.com and should there be a necessity, you may also write to his Executive assistant jaswinder.lamba@gm.com ( professional and an able lady)

[quote=Poitive;2479392]@dnw, It would feel horrible to go through this on a new car. Getting a car is an experience with a lot of emotions and expectations attached (especially for Tbhpians).

Agree, especially after getting the first hand impression of the car almost 2 years ago as 2 of my good friends drive them and the ride to Goa in one of the cars is when love happened..200kmph was a breeze and it really did feel better than an orgasm


What is the date of production of the car based on VIN?

manufactured in march 2011

Any idea of when the car was invoiced to the dealer?
(it is there in the paperwork of the car with the local dealer)

Invoiced - July 2011

At the time of taking the decision, what was more important for me, was how responsive the company management is likely to be, in case I did have trouble. Reports about it were encouraging. Your experience too is similar.

I have little belief in how dealerships are run. Is a good idea to take a fresh-from-the-factory piece, and take delivery as soon as they arrive. Don't think enough importance is given to PDI's by the dealers in general.

Hope your issues get resolved very soon. Do keep us updated.
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Old 24th August 2011, 23:55   #60
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Default Re: Too many problems with my new Chevrolet Optra Magnum

At last i had a chance to test drive the Magnum. Called up the SA at 1 pm. Told him that I would reach the showroom between 3.00 - 3.30 pm. Reached at 3.15 pm with my better half.

In short
- loved the leather interiors of LT (new car on display)
- other things looked old school
- had to wait for TD car to arrive for 20 minutes
- SA had no clue about the car & was most of the time talking on the mobile
- TD car had run 8400 kms; SA said that the car was less than a year old
- engine was smooth and was the best part of the car
- suspension felt softly tuned and could soak up undulations on the road
- immense turbo lag (25 kmph in 3rd gear). Car took a while to pick up speed and was a monster above 2100 rpm
- rubbing noise from left front wheel was audible. SA said - normal
- enquired about sensors failing in new cars. SA said - possible in any car
- enquired about the immense turbo lag in the TD car. SA said - go above 40 and you will feel the push
- lot of road noise seeping into the cabin even though engine is only audible at high revs
- Right hand side ORVM is not convex enough.

The car is good, but SAs lacked even an iota of interest to sell the car. I liked the car and have asked for a quote. Works out to 10.6 OTR, which is a fair deal. Wifey was not very convinced. According to her it is a car I should own when I am 10 years older. I'm looking at the other cars and would take decision soon.

Last edited by MAS : 24th August 2011 at 23:58.
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