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Old 5th August 2011, 20:20   #16
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

Moten salt is just a technology, or means to achieve what one is trying to do. They could have as well used water or oil. The final output of energy is a direct function of temperature difference between heat source(let's say petrol explosions inside an engine) and heat sink (ambient atmosphere in case of a car). if the difference beteween two temperatures are reduced, the output will be reduced.

in an engine, the heat is transferred from heat source to sink, and some percentage of it is converted to mechanical energy. Since no engine is 100% efficient, the sink eventually gets hotter, and source gets cooler.

To illustrate, If somebody was to make a 100% efficient engine, your engine will stay at ambient temperature since all the energy given by petrol is converted to mechanical energy.

In case of the link you posted, note that they are talking about mirrors, which concentrate the solar energy effectively acting like a giant lens. then temperature can hit 4 digit if I am reading it right. And the temperature difference would be more than 900 degrees when in summer when ambient temp rises to 100 degrees (all in F).

Coming back to the car, I am not saying it's impossible, but it's much more efficient to use the mechanical energy directly instead of letting it go thru brake pad, convert to heat and then trying to convert back to mech energy.

To clarify your initial doubt, I am a S/W programmer of 11 years who happens to remember some of the engineering concepts from my electrical engg course
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Old 6th August 2011, 12:13   #17
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

Hey Konjaril,

You are living my dream Man! This is what I said to you in our Lavasa meet,if you remember.

Nice thought provoking concept.
The body design is just awesome. Can be worked out further for space management.
I understand how tough it was for finding a place for the stephny and finally ending up packing it at the rear and how many iterations have done for achieving that.
Could imagine, the mating of the independent blocks. Just trying to recollect my 8 year old Catia V5 R7 knowledge on DMU.

Now coming to the usage of liquid nitrogen and its safety, as questioned in the thread by our experts, it needs specially made cylinders and piping for storage and recycling, due to its nature.
Also, I would suggest a series layout instead of the parallel one( again as already mentioned earlier in the thread) just to keep the circuit simple along with an advantage of reduced weight and there by increasing the range of the vehicle.
Also, keeping it simple was your initial interest.
I understand, giving suggestions is the easiest job than anything else!

If feasible, I would love to work with you as a junior w/o any PG and above qualifications.
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Old 9th August 2011, 11:52   #18
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

Hi everyone. First of all sorry for the late replies. Secondly i would like to clarify this again that the vehicle is just conceptual level thinking and of course a lot of grey areas are going to occur while thinking about manufacture-ability. This is a thought more than a demonstration of my technical ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by debugged View Post
Nice design. Correct me if i'm wrong but when using molten salts, shouldn't they be always kept molten. Wont they clog the non-heat absorbing parts once they solidify?
Hi debugged, you have indeed put up a very nice question. Yes molten salt would solidify and clogging can become an issue. This we might be able to rectify, if the physical state of the molten salt may be stabilized using addition of chemicals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gd1418 View Post
Since you mentioned that it is a concept and only a design has been made, I believe still some grey areas are being sorted out. All the other posts here are technical related more to battery charging or the state of the salts or the temperature of the proposed coolant.

I would specifically like to know more about the weight of the vehicle, engine specs & transmission details.
As rightly pointed out by you this vehicle is at concept level hence details like weight of the vehicle cannot be assumed at this stage. Although i did assume the details on overall dimensions and engine options while coming up with the CAD model. they are:

Engine : 2200cc VGT diesel engine
Wheelbase : 2940 mm
Front track : 1640 mm
rear track : 1810 mm
height : 1690 mm
length : 4877mm
width : 1990 mm
boot space : 670mm


Quote:
Originally Posted by smsrini View Post
Interesting concept.

I'd encourage you to think of integrating two technologies that are currently available.

1) The REVOLO Hybrid system from Rane Brakes and KPIT
2) The Bloombox from Bloom Energy, which uses fuel cells of a very small dimension to generate electricity, using a fraction of fossil fuel / gas.

These two systems in my opinion would allow you to drastically reduce the weight of the power train, thereby enabling you to extend the range of the car.

I'm not a technically qualified person to delve deep into these technologies, but as a commoner feel that they have the potential to be deployed in such a concept.


cheers!
Thank you for the wishes sir, i was familiar with the Revolo hybrid technology and if i am mistaken they too still have to address weight issues. but the links were never the less helpful and helped me learn more on hybrids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_DEL View Post
First of all you and young people like you make me believe we Indians are not a bunch of creativity bereft second rate fools. Thank you for that. If I sound a wee bit patronising indulge me please because I am one of those fuddy duddy oldy types.

Now going to the design of the power sources. Have you examined a series layout rather than a parallel layout. I am referring to the vehicle being completely electricity driven with the ICE block kicking in only to charge the batteries rather than propel the vehicle, when your BMS(Battery Management system) decides the charge level in the battery pack has dipped to a level that recharging should start? . This way you DO NOT have to contend with transmission complexity, as you would in a parallel scenario. When the ICE block kicks in that sets the stage for the Stirling to kick in once adequate input is available to it ofcourse. Also IF I am talking like an absolute fool talking of two alternators ( one powered by the ICE block and the other by the Stirling) please do correct me, as I am a book keeper by education who likes to go beyond his skill and intelligence level by thinking of "sciency" things.

All in all your concept itself is something to be proud of. God willing you will come to the stage of a prototype also.
Ha ha sir i don't believe you are the nit picking type at all. the points mentioned by you very well makes sense. i designed the vehicle with an IC engine as i still am very fuddy duddy about giving more prominence to electrical motors , as i have a belief that they yet have to explored fully for their potentials. till then we make use of our good old IC engine. what say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
The vehicle has a lot of different systems running concurrently and a lot of fluids and wires. Have you yet calculated what sort of fluid flow rates that you will require and what sort of extra weight you are adding onto a car.

Also, the heat recovery from the engine is a sort of compromise between how well your IC engine run to how much extra energy you will get from the stirling cycle. As the engines always function best in a certain band of temperature.

Also on more basic doubt, are you sort of wanting to replace the engine coolant with your molten salt, or just collect energy from the outside?? For the first case, the cooling system of the engine will have to take precedence over energy recovery from the coolant. If you are going to collect heat from the engine bay as such, this mean trying to occupy space in a already crowded engine bay.

Similarly, how much energy will you be able to recover from the stirling engine??
Hmm a lot of quires on a more complex level. Being just a concept and just one automobile designer i haven't calculated all the complex values you have stated here. These are important i understand and if ever a technology likes this goes to manufacturing state the feasibility and potency would obviously be studied and this may result in changes to a lot of systems here.
To answer your question, the salt is a just a means for trapping and transporting the heat here. well i don't know how you figured the engine comaprtment is going to be crouded but i am sure there will be enough space for some heat absorbing pipes to run through there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
I think you still didn't get the point. If you are running a refrigeration unit, the whole point of conserving energy is lost.

In the long run, the only temperature difference you get is (temperature of molten salt - ambient temperature). The nitrogen in closed container will soon acquire the ambient temperature (and possibly explode). Not to forget that the engine itself will discard some heat in the nitrogen in the process (since no engine is 100% efficient) so it will be hotter than ambient.

EDIT: Not trying to discedit your research. Just saying heat is the most rudimentary form of energy and collecting and using it to convert back to mechanical energy is highly difficult and inefficient (20%-40% if I remember correctly). you are beter off using a dynamo to charge the battery from braking directly instead of collecting heat, like the traditional hybrids do.
Well this is what we as designers call as creativity blocks. i am not doubting your knowledge on the said state of converting heat to mechanical energy but i am not the first one to try this here and i wont let that stop me from thinking out of the ordinary. And also i was not designing a traditional hybrid here, the main purpose of the concept is to jump start a thought parallel y to an already existing technology.

I agree on the complexity of the temperature differences the nitrogen gas would go through but i don't agree that a Stirling motor would be incompetent to a dyno. there are simple toys in the market today that run off with the heat from your palm or from the heat off a coffee cup. If a simple heat from a computer CPU can rotate a simple fan at relatively good RPM' the heat from an engine will definitely do better tricks i believe.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick79 View Post
Hey Konjaril,

You are living my dream Man! This is what I said to you in our Lavasa meet,if you remember.

Nice thought provoking concept.
The body design is just awesome. Can be worked out further for space management.
I understand how tough it was for finding a place for the stephny and finally ending up packing it at the rear and how many iterations have done for achieving that.
Could imagine, the mating of the independent blocks. Just trying to recollect my 8 year old Catia V5 R7 knowledge on DMU.

Now coming to the usage of liquid nitrogen and its safety, as questioned in the thread by our experts, it needs specially made cylinders and piping for storage and recycling, due to its nature.
Also, I would suggest a series layout instead of the parallel one( again as already mentioned earlier in the thread) just to keep the circuit simple along with an advantage of reduced weight and there by increasing the range of the vehicle.
Also, keeping it simple was your initial interest.
I understand, giving suggestions is the easiest job than anything else!

If feasible, I would love to work with you as a junior w/o any PG and above qualifications.
Hi marverik, good to hear from you. you are bang on about the series layout and it will keep the circuit simpler. nitrogen seems to be the main grey area here. I will definitely look into a better cooling facility as my main aim is just to cool one area of the Stirling motor. And yes i definately look forward to working with you.

Last edited by konjaril : 9th August 2011 at 11:57.
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Old 12th August 2011, 02:02   #19
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Thumbs up Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV



AWESOME.

Just loved this.

I am not a technical guy, so I won't go about offering any advice.

But LOADS of appreciation for 2 reasons primarily:

1. the Concept of the Hybrid (it will be a challenge since from what I know the depth of a solar panel cannot increase the output only surface area can, and you are complimenting it with Li-ion & Liq. Nitrogen - so VERY interesting.)

2. for the Design. The Masculine lines, tyres, rims, led lights. Cockpit. Stance. Lovely. Reminded me of the Hummer HX4.

All the best.

Look forward to seeing this on road someday in the near future and then - driving it & owning it !
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Old 12th August 2011, 02:49   #20
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

konjaril,
First things first, I'm in love with the way your concept looks. sleek and rugged at the same time. Respect man.

From what I could understand from your brief, (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are basically aiming to utilize the normally wasted heat energy from the IC engine. A very good idea indeed, as that heat has almost 70 % of the fuel's energy ( and depends where you plan of harnessing it.) So if the system is successful in harnessing even 50 % of that heat, a 100KW IC engine powered car would actually have more than 200 KW of power to play with! { rough calculation: not taking into account efficiency of power-train }

Allow me to point out some of the 'Grey areas', if you would (do correct me if I'm wrong somewhere). not to discourage you, but i think identifying problems is the first step towards solving them.

1. The Salt system you mentioned is also used in solar power plants as a heat store- to keep the plant functional when no sun is available ( at night for eg) Saw a documentary on the topic once, and pumping the viscous cool 'exhausted salt' was an issue. needed large dia pipes. Also, in that system, a dual layered glass pipe was used with vaccum in between the layers at the point where heat was being absorbed. Would need work packaging these under the hood.
2.The piping full of molten salt would be heavy. and so would be the Sterling engine. along with the batteries. would need clever packaging.
3. safety: Just imagine super hot lava like molten salt gushing out in case of a crash.
4. the cost of replenishing the 'cool' side of the sterling engine- liquid nitrogen

Why dont you consider 'Thermocouples'( the things which generates electricity in presence of a heat source and a heat sink on either side)? I'm not sure about their working efficiencies and cost, but if adequate, would be a more 'direct' way to charge the batteries on board.
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Old 14th August 2011, 09:53   #21
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

Loved the looks of your concept.
Especially the spare mounted on the tail.
and to top it being an Eco friendly vehicle, Two Thumbs up mate!
and some tech which was used on Sub's too. something which has always fascinated us since childhood.
Loved the way the interior seats are placed too. Everyone get's their own bucket seat.
Would love to see one on the road soon.
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Old 15th August 2011, 20:19   #22
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Dear Konjaril,

I really like the design just awesome , the fuel concept is cool

I'm a Commerce guy but technology is my passion

I have a concept in mind

Transmission - Electric Motor
Fuel source - Battery + Diesel /lpg/CNG Generator

this is age old concept used in Diesel locomotives - as electric motor generates more torque than diesel or petrol engine

i'm not trying to compete
just adding
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Old 15th August 2011, 23:19   #23
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

The design looks good, but how about a model that fits into the India rural areas? One that looks like the MM 340 (or better actually!) and rugged, built for abuse and a base platform amenable to jugaad modifications? Like how Gypsy/Jeep owners end up doing ... ?

I am no engineer but me thinks the big wheels will make it more inefficient.

Why is the "most efficient and economical" concept not a "small car" or buggy adoptable by the masses and sized like an M800? Rather it looks like something the elite drive and costs like a bomb.

--Ragul

Last edited by Ragul : 15th August 2011 at 23:22.
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Old 16th August 2011, 14:08   #24
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

@Konjaril - Loved the concept. Would leave the technical details for the experts to comment on. Heat absorption and usage sounds interesting.

Wishing you all the best for converting this concept to a prototype.

Now i know why you are not active on the Pune Tapri meet thread.
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Old 28th September 2011, 11:39   #25
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Wow, so now comes the appreciation part after bit of criticism!
(no offence, since the thread owner would be more interested in having tech comments from the experts)
I happen to come across this thread from FB and man, it was sort of hard to believe concept. I mean from design point of view, the details, the color combination, shades, perspective, locations chosen, my goodness.. I liked everybit of it. oops, Genesis-E. What a name?

Would this name be coined by some prominent designers, say our DC (sorry, I don't know any other designers!) it would have certainly make to some news! Well, I don't know much about the technicalities of a hybrid nor about the working profile of a Concept Designer but being from mechanical engineering field one thing I'm sure about is none of the industry expect you to be a "Master of all things". I could be wrong in this but I don't think a concept designer has to sort-out all the grey areas, does he need to worry about the emission level, compression ratios, bla bla!

OT: out of curiosity I just googled it and found a company Weber making grills with almost same name Genesis E-320. Better patent such terms before posting!
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Old 6th December 2011, 01:48   #26
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From an end user perspective, what kind of performance improvements over the regular hybrid vehicles are we talking about here? For any technology to succeed, it has to have tangible benefits and considerable efficiencies.

Do check out some technical journals and published papers from automotive technology conferences to research and study the viability of this technology. Good luck!
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Old 6th December 2011, 21:31   #27
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

Looking at concepts like this and more matured queries and thought processes and suggestions from various like minded fellow members here, I'm more driven to ponder on a thought which has been lurking on my mind a long time.

And the thought is this: What if Team-bhp can transform and metamorphosise from a auto-critic website into a full-fledged auto-motive company which would involve all the Designers, Planners, DIY-ers, Critics etc on board Team-BHP to conceptualize, design and finally manufacture its own car that would not be just another car in the market to bring in moolah (ultimately this is the aim of ALL major automotive giants right?) but to satisfy the real Indian Dream (or say Team-BHP members dream) of owning the BEST CAR OUT THERE!

Who knows it might even be a possibility one day! There, I started it!
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