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Old 4th August 2011, 14:23   #1
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Default Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

Hi there, to all 'team - mates'. This is a concept i had developed long ago for a design competition and has raised a few interests since then on few blog channels. Team bhpian Mr. Cardeep advised me to start a thread on my concept creation. I thank him for the appreciation and encouragement.

Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV-desert-small.jpg

Well to start with the concept, she is named as the genesis E (where genesis stands for "rebirth" and E for "ECO" ) . Special care has been taken while designing the vehicle that existing technology be used on her rather than coming up with some space ship.

The concepts name is genesis E. Its a hybrid SUV, that runs on Internal combustion engine + electric engine like today's hybrid cars. Hence at slower speeds all the four electric motors in the wheels propel the vehicle. when the vehicle speed excels 40 kmph the Internal Combustion engine starts working. Also when under heavy acceleration the I.C. engine kicks in . During all its working both I.C. engine and the electric motors step-in to aid for better drivability.

The twist here is the way the on-board " lithium Ion" batteries are charged. The batteries can be charged via external electric source but this generally requires a lot of time to get done. Hence i have introduced a Stirling engine (external combustion engine) to the vehicle. A Stirling engine basically works on the principle of temperature differences of gases which result in expansion and contraction helping in the engines working process. Some of the submarines in the world still work on this mechanism.

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A lot of heat is generated from a gasoline engine and also there is a lot of heat generated at the brakes and exhaust systems too. The idea is to not let this heat go to waste and use it for a constructive purpose. A solar panel + all the above mentioned heat sources generate a lot of heat. A series of tubes containing molten salt ( 60% sodium nitrate+ 40 % potassium nitrate) is pumped through them. These tubes run around all the heat sources inside the car trapping available heat. The salt being an excellent heat absorber, absorbs the heat and stores in a heat storage tank. This heat and an external coolant helps create drastic temperature differences in the Stirling motor thus making it work. Which in turns charges the on-board batteries thus saving energy! the concept took 8 days of research and cad work. If you have any sort of doubts , feel free to ask.

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Last edited by konjaril : 4th August 2011 at 14:27.
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Old 4th August 2011, 14:31   #2
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

Good thinking. i have one question, how will be the liquid nitrogen kept in liquid state? also how the Lithium Ion willbe charged? I guess, stirling will drive a dyanmo and charge the batteries?!

Last edited by Suess : 4th August 2011 at 14:39.
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Old 4th August 2011, 14:42   #3
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

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Good thinking. i have one question, how will be the liquid nitrogen kept in liquid state?
Hello sir, i understand that you are asking about the storage for liquid nitrogen as it is extremely dangerous substance. The idea of storing the liquid nitrogen in specially designed pressurized containers capable of handling cryogenic fluids was thought of initially.

But later i shifted my idea of using nitrogen as a coolant to our common AC refrigerant gas.

Yes the dynamo would charge the batteries.

Last edited by konjaril : 4th August 2011 at 14:45.
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Old 4th August 2011, 14:57   #4
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

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Hello sir, i understand that you are asking about the storage for liquid nitrogen as it is extremely dangerous substance. The idea of storing the liquid nitrogen in specially designed pressurized containers capable of handling cryogenic fluids was thought of initially.

But later i shifted my idea of using nitrogen as a coolant to our common AC refrigerant gas.

Yes the dynamo would charge the batteries.
Thanks for the prompt reply. my question wasn't about storage, let me re-phrase it; when you use some coolant(liquid nitrogen or CFC whatever) either you supply and discard it constantly or you recycle it (i.e. cool it down and store it back, like in Refrigerators), so, how it will be in genesis-E case?(BTW uber cool name :-))
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Old 4th August 2011, 15:03   #5
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

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Thanks for the prompt reply. my question wasn't about storage, let me re-phrase it; when you use some coolant(liquid nitrogen or CFC whatever) either you supply and discard it constantly or you recycle it (i.e. cool it down and store it back, like in Refrigerators), so, how it will be in genesis-E case?(BTW uber cool name :-))
Sorry for the mix-up. Well yes i thought of reusing the refrigerant like our A.C systems in a closed loop. although i didnt go indepth of how that would be done. Glad you liked the name
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Old 4th August 2011, 17:17   #6
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

Nice design. Correct me if i'm wrong but when using molten salts, shouldn't they be always kept molten. Wont they clog the non-heat absorbing parts once they solidify?
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Old 4th August 2011, 17:46   #7
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

@Sunil , I read up on this on a blog just today morning , even posted it on TBHP . I guess mods might want to delete that thread now , now that you have posted all the details . Wonderful work buddy .

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-konjaril.html (Hybrid SUV concept - By Team BHPian - Sunil Konjaril)
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Old 5th August 2011, 17:02   #8
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

Looks like a crock..and that is cool. Great design espically the front end. The build looks tank like but the rear passenger space is compromised.
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Old 5th August 2011, 17:29   #9
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

Since you mentioned that it is a concept and only a design has been made, I believe still some grey areas are being sorted out. All the other posts here are technical related more to battery charging or the state of the salts or the temperature of the proposed coolant.

I would specifically like to know more about the weight of the vehicle, engine specs & transmission details.
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Old 5th August 2011, 17:40   #10
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

Interesting concept.

I'd encourage you to think of integrating two technologies that are currently available.

1) The REVOLO Hybrid system from Rane Brakes and KPIT
2) The Bloombox from Bloom Energy, which uses fuel cells of a very small dimension to generate electricity, using a fraction of fossil fuel / gas.

These two systems in my opinion would allow you to drastically reduce the weight of the power train, thereby enabling you to extend the range of the car.

I'm not a technically qualified person to delve deep into these technologies, but as a commoner feel that they have the potential to be deployed in such a concept.


cheers!
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Old 5th August 2011, 18:26   #11
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

Here's the link to the revolo thread.

Also its from Bharat Forge and not Rane..
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Old 5th August 2011, 18:36   #12
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

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Originally Posted by konjaril View Post
Hi there, to all 'team - mates'. This is a concept i had developed long ago for a design competition and has raised a few interests since then on few blog channels.differences in the Stirling motor thus making it work. Which in turns charges the on-board batteries thus saving energy! the concept took 8 days of research and cad work. If you have any sort of doubts , feel free to ask.
First of all you and young people like you make me believe we Indians are not a bunch of creativity bereft second rate fools. Thank you for that. If I sound a wee bit patronising indulge me please because I am one of those fuddy duddy oldy types.

Now going to the design of the power sources. Have you examined a series layout rather than a parallel layout. I am referring to the vehicle being completely electricity driven with the ICE block kicking in only to charge the batteries rather than propel the vehicle, when your BMS(Battery Management system) decides the charge level in the battery pack has dipped to a level that recharging should start? . This way you DO NOT have to contend with transmission complexity, as you would in a parallel scenario. When the ICE block kicks in that sets the stage for the Stirling to kick in once adequate input is available to it ofcourse. Also IF I am talking like an absolute fool talking of two alternators ( one powered by the ICE block and the other by the Stirling) please do correct me, as I am a book keeper by education who likes to go beyond his skill and intelligence level by thinking of "sciency" things.

All in all your concept itself is something to be proud of. God willing you will come to the stage of a prototype also.

Last edited by RS_DEL : 5th August 2011 at 18:39.
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Old 5th August 2011, 19:18   #13
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

The vehicle has a lot of different systems running concurrently and a lot of fluids and wires. Have you yet calculated what sort of fluid flow rates that you will require and what sort of extra weight you are adding onto a car.

Also, the heat recovery from the engine is a sort of compromise between how well your IC engine run to how much extra energy you will get from the stirling cycle. As the engines always function best in a certain band of temperature.

Also on more basic doubt, are you sort of wanting to replace the engine coolant with your molten salt, or just collect energy from the outside?? For the first case, the cooling system of the engine will have to take precedence over energy recovery from the coolant. If you are going to collect heat from the engine bay as such, this mean trying to occupy space in a already crowded engine bay.

Similarly, how much energy will you be able to recover from the stirling engine??
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Old 5th August 2011, 19:44   #14
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

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Sorry for the mix-up. Well yes i thought of reusing the refrigerant like our A.C systems in a closed loop. although i didnt go indepth of how that would be done. Glad you liked the name
I think you still didn't get the point. If you are running a refrigeration unit, the whole point of conserving energy is lost.

In the long run, the only temperture difference you get is (temperature of molten salt - ambient temperature). The nitrogen in closed container will soon acquire the ambient temperature (and possibly explode). Not to forget that the engine itself will discard some heat in the nitrogen in the process (since no engine is 100% efficient) so it will be hotter than ambient.

EDIT: Not trying to discedit your research. Just saying heat is the most rudimentary form of energy and collecting and using it to convert back to mechanical energy is highly difficult and inefficient (20%-40% if I remember correctly). you are beter off using a dynamo to charge the battery from braking directly instead of collecting heat, like the traditional hybrids do.

Last edited by vivekiny2k : 5th August 2011 at 19:49.
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Old 5th August 2011, 20:07   #15
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Default Re: Genesis E - A different perspective on an Eco SUV

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I think you still didn't get the point. If you are running a refrigeration unit, the whole point of conserving energy is lost.

In the long run, the only temperture difference you get is (temperature of molten salt - ambient temperature). The nitrogen in closed container will soon acquire the ambient temperature (and possibly explode). braking directly instead of collecting heat, like the traditional hybrids do.
Would you like to explain how are solar powered thermal power systems using the molten salt ? This is not to question what you are saying, you are obviously an engineer/scientist and more aware of the subject than people like me. It would be most instructive to understand the limitations as you see them from a perspective of practical implementation. What puzzles a lay observer like me is, if this system can be used to generate electricity on a grid scale,see link here, are there no safeguards possible to downsize the application to the level of use in an automobile?
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