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Old 8th August 2011, 22:11   #16
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Quote:
Originally Posted by abheekg View Post

Once diesel filter is pumped, it negotiates up slopes easily but for 5 km only.
This line attracted my attention more than anything else ( 4 wd - High & low etc )

I read everything carefully , but what does this indicates ?

He says once the diesel filter is pumped >> does it translate to PRIMED ?

& then ( after pumped/primed ) the vehicle runs normal for a while >>Translates to

1) engine starving for fuel ? fuel feed pump problem ?

2) fuel lines not bled properly or do not stay that way , without air getting in to them again ? ( after a while )



BTW please ask him if the vehicle is smoking ( exhaust ) normally or excessively when it runs with ' this ' problem

Sudarshan
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Old 8th August 2011, 22:22   #17
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

I would suggest him to use it in 2wd and see if it woks normally.

If possible flush the diesel tank and check the fuel line for. blockages.

There is a quick simple DIY . open the fuel line. Keep open the filler cap. Blow compressed air into it from the fuel line side.
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Old 8th August 2011, 23:53   #18
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Doc,
Let me know if you need any help to get urgent support from M&M (hope it's sorted out with local support of course).
I will PM you my number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post

You've never had any interactions with an (ex-) R&D engineer of M&M who is also active on this forum, and I've not met any Hyundai R&D engineer yet - so maybe we would all do well to shut down a Tucson engine and read manual / call help / pray. Pray, because you should have read up the manual beforehand anyway, and pray because out at Ladakh calling for help is not as easy as picking up a mobile phone and dialling the helpline, network connectivity being almost non-existent.

That's why I prefer a Scorpio to a Tucson - I can afford to let it 'relearn'!
OK.
So it's not documented or official then.

I am typing this from the safety of my home but the guy out there is stuck and if he is going to try any of what's being mentioned here, then he should know the details.
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Old 9th August 2011, 04:42   #19
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Quote:
Originally Posted by abheekg View Post
Is there water in the sedimenter bowl of the diesel filter? Does the sedimenter warning light glow?
No. They just cleaned it up. And after cleaning, the vehicle works fine for about 5 kms.
Notice the similarity with what Tanveer has mentioned earlier on this thread :

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
A friend faced this same problem on a safari near Zanskar. I asked him to drain water from the sedimenter.
after water drain, it would work great for 50-100kms, and then again, powerloss would occur. The fuel he had filled at kargil was of very bad quality(with water),
Does the scorpio have a water separator like the safari which can be cleaned?
It seems very much a fuel feed problem, rather than a transmission or 4WD related issue.
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Old 9th August 2011, 09:58   #20
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

If the vehicle travels 5km before slowing down, it points to fuel starvation. The possible reasons are
. clogged air vent.
. clogged fuel filter.

Cleaning both should rectify the problem.
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Old 9th August 2011, 10:13   #21
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Quote:
Originally Posted by abheekg View Post
Does he have the engine check light / ECM check light lit up on the dashboard?
Yes. It goes away for a while and then comes back on.

So he is in 2WD when it is refusing move beyond 5kmph?

Yeah, it is tarmac. And no he is not in 2WD.
Abheek, please ask your friend which check light is on - the one on the left side, an engine symbol with 'check' written inside it, or the one on the right which is just the engine symbol without anything written inside it.

And why is he NOT on 2WD? Can't he shift back to 2WD after having engaged 4WD at some point of time? Not a good idea at all to continue driving on 4H OR 4L.

What is his status now? Is he back in Leh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
OK.
So it's not documented or official then.
ECU relearning is a well-documented and 'official' process that is NOT described in owners' manuals, and you might want to do some research on your own.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 9th August 2011 at 10:15.
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Old 9th August 2011, 10:28   #22
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Looks like a fuel system problem . He mentions that the car does not move upslope. I guess something (probably and air pocket) is restricting the fuel flow when the car is inclined up but no issue when when the car is inclined down. He sold try and blow the fuel and return lines with pressure and see if that fixes the issue.
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Old 9th August 2011, 11:17   #23
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Doc,
Let me know if you need any help to get urgent support from M&M (hope it's sorted out with local support of course).
I will PM you my number.



OK.
So it's not documented or official then.

I am typing this from the safety of my home but the guy out there is stuck and if he is going to try any of what's being mentioned here, then he should know the details.
Anand, if you owned a Tata/Mahindra, you would have understood that the check engine light is merely a suggestion, not an error in many cases, esp in case of Tata. If I had stopped and tried to call somebody every time the light came on, I would have never completed any trip. Even the Tata guys told me after lot of trial and error, that until they figure out the check engine light, I should keep driving normally, and not worry.

I am not sure about scorpio, but in case of the safari, sometimes check engine light blinks without any problem in driving, in which case you drive on. Sometimes it stays on and does not go away, and you go in limp home mode, and then you have no option but to stop.

In case of this particular scorpio. I think there is a miscommunication. Its just by chance that this vehicle is a 4WD. The problem is somewhere in the fuel delivery system.
Most probably fuel has too much water, and every time to drain sedimenter, it works for a few kms, and again gives up.

As a last resort, he should empty fuel tank, and buy fuel in Nubra. Its going to be cleaner than what you find in the pumps, with only some kerosene adultration, which is kind of okay, and much better than water mixed with fuel.
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Old 9th August 2011, 11:17   #24
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
ECU relearning is a well-documented and 'official' process that is NOT described in owners' manuals, and you might want to do some research on your own.
Thank you.

It's actually not about "relearning", it's about "reusing" the check engine light to indicate "don't worry, I am learning, you keep driving"...
But anyways, I will do the "research" separately.
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Old 9th August 2011, 11:23   #25
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Good morning fellas - "itni der mein to woh Numbra se Leh bus mein jaa kar wahan se M&M authorised mechanic ko le ata"

In lines of whodoneit - what happened thereafter??
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Old 9th August 2011, 13:56   #26
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

One thing I forgot to ask, when the car is left idle for an hour or so "cool engine" is performance normal?
If so, ask him to check whether there is water in radiator.
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Old 9th August 2011, 14:00   #27
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Like others have mentioned, to me it looks like an Air lock in the Fuel assembly (will need drain at fuel filter & just before injectors) or its sucking air somewhere.
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Old 9th August 2011, 15:07   #28
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Another round of great inputs from all of you.
All of this is helping the team and it seems they are back on their feet.

Apart from the trouble shooting, this thread is turning into a great primer on "check engine light" phenomenon in various SUVs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
This line attracted my attention more than anything else ( 4 wd - High & low etc )

I read everything carefully , but what does this indicates ?

He says once the diesel filter is pumped >> does it translate to PRIMED ?

& then ( after pumped/primed ) the vehicle runs normal for a while >>Translates to

1) engine starving for fuel ? fuel feed pump problem ?

2) fuel lines not bled properly or do not stay that way , without air getting in to them again ? ( after a while )



BTW please ask him if the vehicle is smoking ( exhaust ) normally or excessively when it runs with ' this ' problem

Sudarshan
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
I would suggest him to use it in 2wd and see if it woks normally.

If possible flush the diesel tank and check the fuel line for. blockages.

There is a quick simple DIY . open the fuel line. Keep open the filler cap. Blow compressed air into it from the fuel line side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Doc,
Let me know if you need any help to get urgent support from M&M (hope it's sorted out with local support of course).
I will PM you my number.



OK.
So it's not documented or official then.

I am typing this from the safety of my home but the guy out there is stuck and if he is going to try any of what's being mentioned here, then he should know the details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benbsb29 View Post
Notice the similarity with what Tanveer has mentioned earlier on this thread :



It seems very much a fuel feed problem, rather than a transmission or 4WD related issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
If the vehicle travels 5km before slowing down, it points to fuel starvation. The possible reasons are
. clogged air vent.
. clogged fuel filter.

Cleaning both should rectify the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Abheek, please ask your friend which check light is on - the one on the left side, an engine symbol with 'check' written inside it, or the one on the right which is just the engine symbol without anything written inside it.

And why is he NOT on 2WD? Can't he shift back to 2WD after having engaged 4WD at some point of time? Not a good idea at all to continue driving on 4H OR 4L.

What is his status now? Is he back in Leh?

ECU relearning is a well-documented and 'official' process that is NOT described in owners' manuals, and you might want to do some research on your own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipperone View Post
Looks like a fuel system problem . He mentions that the car does not move upslope. I guess something (probably and air pocket) is restricting the fuel flow when the car is inclined up but no issue when when the car is inclined down. He sold try and blow the fuel and return lines with pressure and see if that fixes the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Anand, if you owned a Tata/Mahindra, you would have understood that the check engine light is merely a suggestion, not an error in many cases, esp in case of Tata. If I had stopped and tried to call somebody every time the light came on, I would have never completed any trip. Even the Tata guys told me after lot of trial and error, that until they figure out the check engine light, I should keep driving normally, and not worry.

I am not sure about scorpio, but in case of the safari, sometimes check engine light blinks without any problem in driving, in which case you drive on. Sometimes it stays on and does not go away, and you go in limp home mode, and then you have no option but to stop.

In case of this particular scorpio. I think there is a miscommunication. Its just by chance that this vehicle is a 4WD. The problem is somewhere in the fuel delivery system.
Most probably fuel has too much water, and every time to drain sedimenter, it works for a few kms, and again gives up.

As a last resort, he should empty fuel tank, and buy fuel in Nubra. Its going to be cleaner than what you find in the pumps, with only some kerosene adultration, which is kind of okay, and much better than water mixed with fuel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Thank you.

It's actually not about "relearning", it's about "reusing" the check engine light to indicate "don't worry, I am learning, you keep driving"...
But anyways, I will do the "research" separately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
One thing I forgot to ask, when the car is left idle for an hour or so "cool engine" is performance normal?
If so, ask him to check whether there is water in radiator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dadu View Post
Like others have mentioned, to me it looks like an Air lock in the Fuel assembly (will need drain at fuel filter & just before injectors) or its sucking air somewhere.
With every passing post I am getting doubly sure that finally the problem is going to be found somewhere in the fuel tank/fuel lines/etc. Everything thats being written here is being read and implemented hungrily by the team up there.

Here's a communication that I received from the team which I am posting verbatim again. This may give us more inputs and help us help them further :

I had a word with Vivek today. He has managed to negotiate the Chang La Valley and is back to Leh. He will be starting for Delhi via Manali. According to the updated information, it is not a transmission issue, but engine related issue. I have passed on the suggestions posted on BHP to him and he will be going back to service center in Leh to get those done. Lets hope the vehicle gets back to running at its best. On level ground he is able to do 140 kmph easily but on slopes it starts to struggle meaning not enough fuel getting to engine possibly. The vehicle struggles in both 2 wheel and 4 wheel modes, although it does a little better in 4 wheel as might be expected but the power to the engine is not as expected. Also, he had gotten the 60 watt front lamps replaced with 100 watt lamps at Pune service center and they had changed some wiring for that.

The check engine light is continuously blinking and when connected to software it goes away but comes back soon. This might be caused by some issues during rewiring is what we are thinking.

Will keep you updated.
--


Thank you for all the help.


with regards,
Dr. A Ghosh (on behalf of the team stuck up here)

Last edited by abheekg : 9th August 2011 at 15:09. Reason: to reformat
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Old 9th August 2011, 15:38   #29
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Reminded of model airplanes and their fuel pick up issues. The tanks had a weighted fuel pipe so that when you fly "inverted" the fuel pick up remains pointed "down" by gravity where fuel is going to be.

Folks do these vehicles have fuel pump in the tank or outside? It could be issue of the in tank pick up pipe not touching the fuel tank bottom and on slopes getting air sucked in. He says "On level ground he is able to do 140 kmph easily but on slopes it starts to struggle meaning not enough fuel getting to engine possibly"

Also going by a bitter experience in extreme cold of more plains in late October the rubber hose tend to get extremely brittle. But at this time of the year Nubra would not be in minus temperature range.
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