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Old 8th August 2011, 01:29   #1
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Default Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Dear All

I am posting this on behalf of a friend who's stuck in Leh. I received his email today morning. Posting it almost verbatim here:

Hi
I have a Mahindra Scorpio M-Hawk 4WD that I purchased last year in October. I took it on a trip to Leh-Ladakh from Pune and now I am stuck in Nubra Valley. While negotiating upward slopes, the vehicle refuses to move beyond 5km/hr speeds. While on level grounds, the 4 wheel mode works fine, here it seems to come unstuck.

I feel very sad seeing even a Xylo negotiate those slopes easily and my vehicle lagging behind. Let me know what component could be at fault since the service center people in Leh are also unable to figure out the problem.

Diesel and Air filters both have been cleaned. Diesel filter is only 3,500 kms old. Once diesel filter is pumped, it negotiates up slopes easily but for 5 km only.

Let me know what can be the possible solution.

regards,
Dr. A Ghosh (on behalf of Vivek)

I have asked Vivek for more details. Let me know if anyone could help him.

Last edited by abheekg : 8th August 2011 at 01:39.
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Old 8th August 2011, 09:03   #2
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Sad to hear about your friend's experience. But not at all surprised, I see Scorpio 4WD failure in every OTR I participate.

I can't think of a cause in your friend's case, in OTRs it mostly happens due to a wet sensor. However, I am curious of your description where you say it refuses to climb upward slopes. Looks like a general problem rather than a 4WD problem.

Some points:
1) Is your friend well-versed in the use of 4WD? I mean when to use it and when not to use it.
2) When he says Xylo can make it, it appears he is referring to tarmac, and not offroad situation. So he is in 2WD when it is refusing move beyond 5kmph?

Some kind of fuel delivery problem? Anyway, let's hear from others. If this is a non-4WD problem, we will have to move this to technical section.

Last edited by Samurai : 8th August 2011 at 09:04.
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Old 8th August 2011, 09:39   #3
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Quote:
Originally Posted by abheekg View Post
While negotiating upward slopes, the vehicle refuses to move beyond 5km/hr speeds. While on level grounds, the 4 wheel mode works fine, here it seems to come unstuck.

Once diesel filter is pumped, it negotiates up slopes easily but for 5 km only.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I see Scorpio 4WD failure in every OTR I participate.
I can't think of a cause in your friend's case, in OTRs it mostly happens due to a wet sensor. However, I am curious of your description where you say it refuses to climb upward slopes. Looks like a general problem rather than a 4WD problem.
Seems to be an engine related problem rather than a transmission related one. Ask him to reset the ECU by disconnecting the battery and waiting for 15 minutes, then reconnecting the battery and starting up.
  • Does he have the engine check light / ECM check light lit up on the dashboard?
  • Does the vehicle operate normally in 2H mode? Or is his transmission locked into 4L mode and won't shift back to 2H?
  • Can he rev the engine on neutral to 2500-3000 rpm?
  • Does he have adequate diesel in the tank? Ask him to check physically, since the tank sender unit may have developed a fault (a known issue with Scorpios) and the fuel level indicator on the dashboard may be erroneously showing more fuel in the tank than there actually is.
  • Is there water in the sedimenter bowl of the diesel filter? Does the sedimenter warning light glow?

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 8th August 2011 at 09:40.
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Old 8th August 2011, 15:01   #4
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Thank you for your detailed replies Dr Sengupta and Samurai. I have forwarded your questions to my friend. The cell network in Leh is erratic so reaching Vivek is a little tough at the moment. Would there be anything that I need to ask him that may be helpful ?

regards,
Dr. A Ghosh
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Old 8th August 2011, 17:08   #5
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Ask him to remove the fuel filler cap and then try. The "moving okay for 5km" makes me think is the fuel filler air hole is blocked?

And if Xylo is doing it in 2wheel drive why is he engaging 4wd??
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Old 8th August 2011, 17:22   #6
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Quote:
Originally Posted by abheekg View Post
Once diesel filter is pumped, it negotiates up slopes easily but for 5 km only.


You have to acertain whether it is an engine problem or a problem with the four wheel drive. Your first post is very confusing in this regard.

If it is a motor problem then it sounds like an air leak in the fuel system...e.g. around the fuel filter gasket is the usual suspect.

If it is a four wheel drive problem then it may involve vacuum hoses that change the mode from two to four wheel drive and back. Try moving the 4x4 select switch in and out of 4x4 drive and try rolling slowly in reverse a few meters and then forward and then in reverse a few times...e.g. in and out of 4x4 while also going a few meters in reverse and then going forward again, over and over.

Regardless of the fact that the mech has looked at the air filter, the problem also sounds like an air filter problem, e.g. very dirty from heavy Ladakh dust.

Last edited by DirtyDan : 8th August 2011 at 17:36.
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Old 8th August 2011, 18:19   #7
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

A friend faced this same problem on a safari near Zanskar. I asked him to drain water from the sedimenter.
after water drain, it would work great for 50-100kms, and then again, powerloss would occur. The fuel he had filled at kargil was of very bad quality(with water),
Does the scorpio have a water separator like the safari which can be cleaned?

That said, the Khardungla section has mostly dirt track type of road, so he can shift to 4L and reach leh somehow, and then get it checked at mahindra service center.
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Old 8th August 2011, 19:10   #8
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Some information is missing here, the engine malfunction light should be "blinking" in this case, if it blinks that means the vehicle is in limp mode and it can't go beyond certain rpm, for everything else the engine works with reduced power, I have cross Tanglang La with MIL light on. I would suggest same as SS to disconnect the battery and wait for 15 minutes, also look the vacuum system for any leakage. I doubt it 4WD problem.

-Pramod
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Old 8th August 2011, 19:58   #9
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Exclamation Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

IMHO & AFAIK

Scorpio has a Borg Warner Transfer case & operates on an electrical type shift . There is no Vacuum shift involved .

Sudarshan
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Old 8th August 2011, 20:35   #10
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
Ask him to remove the fuel filler cap and then try. The "moving okay for 5km" makes me think is the fuel filler air hole is blocked?
+1 to that - logical suggestion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
And if Xylo is doing it in 2wheel drive why is he engaging 4wd??
Because it's there!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Does the scorpio have a water separator like the safari which can be cleaned?
Not sure how it is in the Safari, but the Scorpio does have a water sedimenter bowl that can be cleaned without too much effort if one knows how.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
That said, the Khardungla section has mostly dirt track type of road, so he can shift to 4L and reach leh somehow...
Not advisable. Dirt track is only between South Pullu to North Pullu. The rest of the road is pretty good tarmac. Transmission windup will be a major issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pramods View Post
...the engine malfunction light should be "blinking" in this case, if it blinks that means the vehicle is in limp mode and it can't go beyond certain rpm, for everything else the engine works with reduced power...
The engine check light does come on at high altitudes and apparently allows the ECM to 'relearn' the oxygen levels being read by the oxygen sensor and change fuelling accordingly. Initially I lost a little power too, but once the light went out after 20 min or so, power delivery improved drastically. This does not translate into an error code, as I found on subsequent scanning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pramods View Post
...look the vacuum system for any leakage.
Which vacuum system?
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Old 8th August 2011, 20:41   #11
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

As already stated by a lot of people, this seems to be more of a fuel delivery issue rather than transmission. I would think if it was a transmission issue like vehicle stuck in 4L and all, the amount of notice and torque the vehicle would produce would throw off your friend.

As already stated by others, please ask your friend to clean the sedimenter, pump the line to remove air bubble and also try to clear the hole in the fuel filler cap.

Cheers
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Old 8th August 2011, 21:02   #12
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
The engine check light does come on at high altitudes and apparently allows the ECM to 'relearn' the oxygen levels being read by the oxygen sensor and change fuelling accordingly. Initially I lost a little power too, but once the light went out after 20 min or so, power delivery improved drastically. This does not translate into an error code, as I found on subsequent scanning.
Hey, that's serious.
If engine check light glows, I would simply pull over and shut down the engine and read manual/call help. So if the owner manual does not mention that the engine check light can glow at high altitudes to indicate "relearning", I would never allow my engine to relearn!

I would really appreciate if this is an officially supported and documented behavior and whether it's applicable to all vehicles (my Hyundai Tucson included) or it's specific to Scorpio?
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Old 8th August 2011, 21:17   #13
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

It is very much fuel line problem. There is filter in side the fuel tank. That has to be cleaned.
Complete fuel line to be air tight. No air should sweep in. Still if you want mech way, a 20 lts CAN some mtrs length of plastic pipe and external feeding. It will work. Good luck
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Old 8th August 2011, 21:25   #14
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Hey, that's serious.
If engine check light glows, I would simply pull over and shut down the engine and read manual/call help. So if the owner manual does not mention that the engine check light can glow at high altitudes to indicate "relearning", I would never allow my engine to relearn!

You've never had any interactions with an (ex-) R&D engineer of M&M who is also active on this forum, and I've not met any Hyundai R&D engineer yet - so maybe we would all do well to shut down a Tucson engine and read manual / call help / pray. Pray, because you should have read up the manual beforehand anyway, and pray because out at Ladakh calling for help is not as easy as picking up a mobile phone and dialling the helpline, network connectivity being almost non-existent.

That's why I prefer a Scorpio to a Tucson - I can afford to let it 'relearn'!
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Old 8th August 2011, 22:11   #15
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Default Re: Scorpio 4WD issues - looking for help - Stuck in Leh

Dear all
Thank you for all the replies. I understand that I have not been able to explain the problem that Vivek seems to be having because I have not been able to reach him due to virtually non existent mobile phone network. I have been able to reach one of his friend who has given me a few replies to the questions that Dr Sengupta has asked . Here are they :

Does he have the engine check light / ECM check light lit up on the dashboard?
Yes. It goes away for a while and then comes back on.


Does the vehicle operate normally in 2H mode? Or is his transmission locked into 4L mode and won't shift back to 2H?
It is working normally in 2H mode. No locking up in 4L.


Can he rev the engine on neutral to 2500-3000 rpm?
This one I don't know.

Does he have adequate diesel in the tank? Ask him to check physically, since the tank sender unit may have developed a fault (a known issue with Scorpios) and the fuel level indicator on the dashboard may be erroneously showing more fuel in the tank than there actually is.
There is adequate fuel in the tank.


Is there water in the sedimenter bowl of the diesel filter? Does the sedimenter warning light glow?
No. They just cleaned it up. And after cleaning, the vehicle works fine for about 5 kms.


1) Is your friend well-versed in the use of 4WD? I mean when to use it and when not to use it.
I also hope he is. But there is always something to learn.

2) When he says Xylo can make it, it appears he is referring to tarmac, and not offroad situation. So he is in 2WD when it is refusing move beyond 5kmph?
Yeah, it is tarmac. And no he is not in 2WD.

I know that these are ambiguous replies again but we can't help. I have tried to relay all the info that you guys have given here to our friend stuck up there..

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
Ask him to remove the fuel filler cap and then try. The "moving okay for 5km" makes me think is the fuel filler air hole is blocked?

And if Xylo is doing it in 2wheel drive why is he engaging 4wd??
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
You have to acertain whether it is an engine problem or a problem with the four wheel drive. Your first post is very confusing in this regard.

If it is a motor problem then it sounds like an air leak in the fuel system...e.g. around the fuel filter gasket is the usual suspect.

If it is a four wheel drive problem then it may involve vacuum hoses that change the mode from two to four wheel drive and back. Try moving the 4x4 select switch in and out of 4x4 drive and try rolling slowly in reverse a few meters and then forward and then in reverse a few times...e.g. in and out of 4x4 while also going a few meters in reverse and then going forward again, over and over.

Regardless of the fact that the mech has looked at the air filter, the problem also sounds like an air filter problem, e.g. very dirty from heavy Ladakh dust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
A friend faced this same problem on a safari near Zanskar. I asked him to drain water from the sedimenter.
after water drain, it would work great for 50-100kms, and then again, powerloss would occur. The fuel he had filled at kargil was of very bad quality(with water),
Does the scorpio have a water separator like the safari which can be cleaned?

That said, the Khardungla section has mostly dirt track type of road, so he can shift to 4L and reach leh somehow, and then get it checked at mahindra service center.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pramods View Post
Some information is missing here, the engine malfunction light should be "blinking" in this case, if it blinks that means the vehicle is in limp mode and it can't go beyond certain rpm, for everything else the engine works with reduced power, I have cross Tanglang La with MIL light on. I would suggest same as SS to disconnect the battery and wait for 15 minutes, also look the vacuum system for any leakage. I doubt it 4WD problem.

-Pramod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
IMHO & AFAIK

Scorpio has a Borg Warner Transfer case & operates on an electrical type shift . There is no Vacuum shift involved .

Sudarshan
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
+1 to that - logical suggestion.

Because it's there!

Not sure how it is in the Safari, but the Scorpio does have a water sedimenter bowl that can be cleaned without too much effort if one knows how.

Not advisable. Dirt track is only between South Pullu to North Pullu. The rest of the road is pretty good tarmac. Transmission windup will be a major issue.

The engine check light does come on at high altitudes and apparently allows the ECM to 'relearn' the oxygen levels being read by the oxygen sensor and change fuelling accordingly. Initially I lost a little power too, but once the light went out after 20 min or so, power delivery improved drastically. This does not translate into an error code, as I found on subsequent scanning.

Which vacuum system?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
As already stated by a lot of people, this seems to be more of a fuel delivery issue rather than transmission. I would think if it was a transmission issue like vehicle stuck in 4L and all, the amount of notice and torque the vehicle would produce would throw off your friend.

As already stated by others, please ask your friend to clean the sedimenter, pump the line to remove air bubble and also try to clear the hole in the fuel filler cap.

Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Hey, that's serious.
If engine check light glows, I would simply pull over and shut down the engine and read manual/call help. So if the owner manual does not mention that the engine check light can glow at high altitudes to indicate "relearning", I would never allow my engine to relearn!

I would really appreciate if this is an officially supported and documented behavior and whether it's applicable to all vehicles (my Hyundai Tucson included) or it's specific to Scorpio?
Quote:
Originally Posted by narendra.vw View Post
It is very much fuel line problem. There is filter in side the fuel tank. That has to be cleaned.
Complete fuel line to be air tight. No air should sweep in. Still if you want mech way, a 20 lts CAN some mtrs length of plastic pipe and external feeding. It will work. Good luck

Thanks for all the inputs.
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