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Old 10th November 2011, 12:11   #16
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

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Diesel engines are one of tata's core competencies. sure they might have stumbled with the dicor, but they do have a lot of other decent engines, and just because of the fiat diesel engine, doesnt mean they have to abandon their know how about small diesel engines.
Agreed, I tried to clarify my "wonder why" by saying that it must be for the export markets or on second thoughts even for JLR
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Old 10th November 2011, 16:24   #17
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

I fail to see why it is a source of wonder/ incredulity.
Think it would be necessary for the (much rumoured) 3 pot diesel Nano, for weight/ weight distribution reasons. Might be the starting point of a new family of engines.
Otherwise nowadays choice between CI and Al essentially comes down to cost. Al is seen as 'hitech' and so has a marketing edge. Might be part of the arsenal for the Nano to fight its 'really cheap' image.

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Last edited by Sutripta : 10th November 2011 at 16:26.
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Old 10th November 2011, 18:32   #18
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
I fail to see why it is a source of wonder/ incredulity.
Think it would be necessary for the (much rumoured) 3 pot diesel Nano, for weight/ weight distribution reasons. Might be the starting point of a new family of engines.
Otherwise nowadays choice between CI and Al essentially comes down to cost. Al is seen as 'hitech' and so has a marketing edge. Might be part of the arsenal for the Nano to fight its 'really cheap' image.

Regards
Sutripta

Aluminum engines are the way to go, if you want lighter engines, which in turn give better FE especially for smaller cars.

Casting Aluminum engine blocks is relatively straight forward operation today provided a few precautions are taken, and with a volume producer like Tata or M&M a doable option.
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Old 10th November 2011, 20:39   #19
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

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Aluminum engines are the way to go, if you want lighter engines, which in turn give better FE especially for smaller cars.
What if the vehicle (NOT engine) designer feels that that money is better spent elsewhere?

Actually what surprises me, if the news is true, is that TML has the money to start designing a new engine. IMO, that money would have been better spent elsewhere. Like QC and production facilities.

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Old 10th November 2011, 22:40   #20
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
What if the vehicle (NOT engine) designer feels that that money is better spent elsewhere?

Actually what surprises me, if the news is true, is that TML has the money to start designing a new engine. IMO, that money would have been better spent elsewhere. Like QC and production facilities.

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Sutripta
We are not in an ideal world. Money is always a scarce resource, so some prioritization is always required. Engine design is a long term commitment. Once you have gained capability, it will stay with you.

That is not to deny that Vehicle Design and QC are to be put on back burner, these are the mainstay of your business. QC and assembly are more a state of mind than financial commitment, as the payback in both the cases is much more than the investment.
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Old 10th November 2011, 22:55   #21
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

^^^
Though we love saying that quality is an attitude/ state of mind etc, and there is a lot of truth in that, it is not the whole truth. Pay peanuts, get monkeys still holds. For both people and products.

Todays production economics (high production volumes, 0 rejection, JIT etc) requires significant capital investment. And significant personnel training/ retraining costs.

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Old 11th November 2011, 03:41   #22
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
^^^
Though we love saying that quality is an attitude/ state of mind etc, and there is a lot of truth in that, it is not the whole truth. Pay peanuts, get monkeys still holds. For both people and products.

Todays production economics (high production volumes, 0 rejection, JIT etc) requires significant capital investment. And significant personnel training/ retraining costs.

Regards
Sutripta

I hope more people realize the above.

One related question, since this is a techincal stuff thread it ought to be relevant:

aside from being lightweight how does aluminum help in the engine block?
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Old 11th November 2011, 11:31   #23
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

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Originally Posted by vina View Post
I hope more people realize the above.

One related question, since this is a techincal stuff thread it ought to be relevant:

aside from being lightweight how does aluminum help in the engine block?
This is what I found
"Because they expand at the same rate, aluminum blocks are less likely to experience blown head gaskets when used with aluminum heads than iron block/aluminum head combinations"
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Old 12th November 2011, 06:59   #24
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

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Originally Posted by vina View Post
aside from being lightweight how does aluminum help in the engine block?
Essentially weight.
Collateral benefits of higher thermal conductivity.

The most powerful F1 engine ever had a production CI block.

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Old 19th January 2012, 14:47   #25
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Essentially weight.
Collateral benefits of higher thermal conductivity.

The most powerful F1 engine ever had a production CI block.

Regards
Sutripta
I believe this is the best reason for going in for a CI block. The heating up and heat dissipation is faster in CI than Aluminium. Further a smaller Aluminium engine may not able to develop the same power like a heavier and stronger CI engine

EDIT : This reply was erroneously given in this thread, instead of the Ford Ecosport thread. Anyways...

Last edited by mallumowgli : 19th January 2012 at 14:48.
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Old 19th January 2012, 15:16   #26
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

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Originally Posted by mallumowgli View Post
I believe this is the best reason for going in for a CI block. The heating up and heat dissipation is faster in CI than Aluminium. Further a smaller Aluminium engine may not able to develop the same power like a heavier and stronger CI engine

EDIT : This reply was erroneously given in this thread, instead of the Ford Ecosport thread. Anyways...
I think heat dissipation is faster in Aluminum rather than in CI, though heat retention is better in CI.

CI blocks maintain their dimensional stability better than Aluminum, which may deform on overheating, hence for raw power application CI may withstand abuse better. But for normal driving, the reduction in weight of the engine and associated components - suspension, mountings etc have a positive effect on the performance and FE.
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Old 19th January 2012, 15:30   #27
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

Let me add a couple of things. I am sure that the term 'All Aluminium'is in context of the block and the head. The liners in which the pistons will run will be steel. In the early 1970's all aluminium blocks (with a high silicon content for good abrasion resistance) were used by Mercedes but I doubt is these are still around. An alloy block is likely to be somewhat larger than the equivalent steel block but the advantages in terms of weight are enormous. They could have gone the half-way route with an alloy head, but going the whole hog has its advantages.
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Old 19th January 2012, 17:49   #28
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

One of the earliest large-series production all-aluminium engines was the Rover V8, originally a GM engine (Buick 215) that was only used in the Buick Skylark before GM abandoned aluminium and went back to CI.

That engine then became the mainstay of the Rover/Landrover/MG group, powering several cars from the small MGB to the TVR Chimerra to the Rover SD1 (sold here as the Standard 2000 but with the 2 litre engine from the Vanguard) to the venerable Morgans, Land Rover/Defender Series, the Discoveries and the early Range Rovers. The same engine was made in several capacities - from the original 3.5 to the subsequent 3.9, the 4.0, the 4.2 and the 4.6, though not very different from its original 1954 roots.

JLR already have the technology for this, then. Its a matter of transferring some of this tech back to the mothership. And of course adapting it to small engines.
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Old 19th January 2012, 21:06   #29
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

^^^
And GM sold off the engine because they believed it was too small (= not powerful enough) for their needs!

In Rovers hands, would it be considered 'large series production'?!
What about the Chevy Vega (no liners, but with its CI head!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
They could have gone the half-way route with an alloy head, but going the whole hog has its advantages.
Common enough. Think our venerable 1100Ds.

Actually, in a (non sports) small car, the highest priority is normally cost. An Al block is costly. In this environment of vicious cost cutting, the cost difference between an Al/ CI engine can be better utilised elsewhere (in the car, not necessarily engine).

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Old 19th January 2012, 21:43   #30
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Default Re: Tata working on all-aluminium car engine

While this is a good move by Tata, I can't help but think of ways in which they could improve all the cars in their portfolio. We want niggle-free cars. Once you've achieved that, then you can go ahead and make all-aluminum this and titanium that.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 19th January 2012 at 21:44.
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