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Old 15th November 2011, 21:39   #76
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
Ok, I agree. But why does Toyota has to detune the engine so much when other manufacturers dont feel the need to?

Just because Toyota detunes the engine, does that make them more reliable or sturdy? I think the other way, there must be something wrong that Toyota HAD TO detune the engine so much!
I'm no expert on engines. Quite the contrary. While the engine is an important parameter for me, I look at the performance aspects that I need and pick my car and leave modernity/outdated aspect to the manufacturers' R&D centres. But I think you are possibly missing the obvious here. Overseas also, where the said engine is understandably not detuned, Toyota is an equally respectable name as far as reliability is concerned. So I don't think that there is something really wrong with the engine. But this is an observation purely from commonsense perspective and facts might bear out something against it.

I know your question, why then detune the engine at all?! I would like to know too out of curiosity. Is it FE, extra long life, or something else? But from practical perspective, I care two hoots about this. If Innova doesn't satisfy me, I'd go look for another ride!

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I suppose this will merit a new thread - BHP/lakh: Which is the most VFM car?


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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
...but I would like to have a car which is fun to drive, even though it lasts only 3 lakh kms.
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Originally Posted by kousik View Post
Actually we could then have a "sports" version of Innova.

Which'll not last 4 lakhs kilometers. Maybe half of it.
Write to Toyota! They might just bring it in if they think there is enough market for it.
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Old 15th November 2011, 22:15   #77
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Raj, could you please elaborate about what 'clean up' is done during these services? Why do they cost 8+k?
Even I dont know. They dont let us inside the service area. they claim that they clean the injectors, exhaust (!!!), replace the fuel filter & blah blah...

even in the invoice, its written "Engine clean up service"!

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Originally Posted by kousik View Post
Actually we could then have a "sports" version of Innova.

Which'll not last 4 lakhs kilometers. Maybe half of it. People like me, who bought it for personal use, who clocked their Innova just 40000km in 6 years, and maybe will do 40000 more in next 4 or 5 before selling it off, wouldn't mind a little reduced lifetime if enough fun factor in obtained in the compromise.

And of course, I wonder why doesn't Toyota sells a remapped ECU Innova as a premium version? Even at reduced lifetime, those aren't likely to hit the limit.
Exactly what I am trying to convey.

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Originally Posted by RadiantKarma View Post
Overseas also, where the said engine is understandably not detuned, Toyota is an equally respectable name as far as reliability is concerned. So I don't think that there is something really wrong with the engine. But this is an observation purely from commonsense perspective and facts might bear out something against it.
Please dont misunderstand me, I am not saying there is anything wrong with the engine.

Infact I am aware that D-4D is one of the most reliable diesel motors. But reliability is not everything? what about the feel good factor?

Quote:
I know your question, why then detune the engine at all?! I would like to know too out of curiosity. Is it FE, extra long life, or something else? But from practical perspective, I care two hoots about this. If Innova doesn't satisfy me, I'd go look for another ride!
Point is, it does not fare too well in FE either.
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Old 16th November 2011, 10:35   #78
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

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Originally Posted by RadiantKarma View Post
I know your question, why then detune the engine at all?! I would like to know too out of curiosity. Is it FE, extra long life, or something else? But from practical perspective, I care two hoots about this. If Innova doesn't satisfy me, I'd go look for another ride!
I think this was discussed in another thread. Any way here is the summary

. Detuning reduces the peak torque, and at the same time spreads the torque curve, so that you get more torque at lower RPM and at the higher RPM
. This ensures that the engine can be more usable at lower RPM in the same gear, so you require less gear changes
. Detuning also means that the fuel quality can be relaxed as the engine is now does not need to extract the maximum power from the fuel.

All this means that as you get more useful torque at lower RPM, you need less gear changes, the wear and tear is less, and you can use slightly inferior fuel. As detuning stresses the engine less, it adds another factor to its longevity.

Last edited by Aroy : 16th November 2011 at 10:36.
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Old 16th November 2011, 17:30   #79
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post

Regarding poor fuel issues, our toyota A.S.S. blames us for the smoke in our innova stating that we must have been filling improper fuel. we have tried almost every other bunk in our area by now! another SA sheepishly admits that this is a problem with many innovas. After the recent 'clean up' service, the engine suddenly feels more responsive & refined. he says we should get this done every 40,000 kms!
Have you been using the "turbo diesel" or any other additive laced diesel brands? Reason I ask is that Toyota recommends just normal diesel. Maybe you got a bad piece though hard to believe that knowing consistency in the cars Toyota has. In general, smoke out of Innova's is more the exception than the rule.
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Old 16th November 2011, 20:04   #80
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

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Originally Posted by Buffetfan View Post
Have you been using the "turbo diesel" or any other additive laced diesel brands? Reason I ask is that Toyota recommends just normal diesel. Maybe you got a bad piece though hard to believe that knowing consistency in the cars Toyota has. In general, smoke out of Innova's is more the exception than the rule.
Yes, I am aware of that. We have not being using any additives or premium fuel in any of our cars. we always fill normal diesel only.

I still believe that I have not got a bad piece as the A.S.S. itself admits that this is a problem with lot of innovas. Infact that is the reason they already have the 'engine clean up' service available with them.
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Old 16th November 2011, 21:21   #81
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
...the 'engine clean up' service...
Raj, I think you should try to find out what it is exactly that the service centre people do when they claim to perform engine clean up. Is this an approved service procedure recommended by Toyota? Maybe you can write directly to TKM and ask specifically
  • what the clean up entails technically,
  • why you need to do this so frequently,
  • why it is so expensive,
  • why don't all other Innovas require this clean up, and
  • why other vehicles with similar common rail diesel engines (for example your Scorpio or Punto) do not suffer from the same problem whenfilling diesel from the same pumps.
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Old 18th November 2011, 12:04   #82
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Raj, could you please elaborate about what 'clean up' is done during these services? Why do they cost 8+k?
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Raj, I think you should try to find out what it is exactly that the service centre people do when they claim to perform engine clean up. Is this an approved service procedure recommended by Toyota?
details of what they do in engine clean up service -
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Is the Innova engine outdated?-scan_pic0011.jpg  

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Old 18th November 2011, 14:17   #83
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

I am surprised that the disc and rear drum were renewed on only one side.
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Old 18th November 2011, 14:51   #84
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

They have charged 1500 specifically for the black-smoke issue. Did it fix the issue with black smoke ?

I don't remember seeing any Innova spewing black smoke. So must be a one-off case.

Never driven an Innova, but have always heard only good things from those who have driven it. Never even been driven around in one either, but from the way these T-board Innovas pass you on the road, they do not feel underpowered, irrespective of the bhp/torque figures on paper.

But yes, as some mentioned, if the same performance can be derived from a smaller displacement engine, why not ? Especially if it helps improve the FE - every extra km from a litre of fuel is not only a saving of money, but also helps use precious & non-renewable energy source to the max.
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Old 18th November 2011, 20:08   #85
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

^^^ you saw only the labour charges. have a look at the parts replaced also & add their cost too.

even I have seen very few innovas with such problems. they dont feel underpowered because the handling of innova is car like (read good) and compared to a scorpio or safari, the innova does not need to slow down on turns or does not roll badly during sharp lane changes. that is the reason the driver can maintain that speed IMO.

take the innova to an open road & you will feel the deficit in power (after 100 kmph).
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Old 19th November 2011, 00:44   #86
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
details of what they do in engine clean up service -
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
They have charged 1500 specifically for the black-smoke issue.
"Engine - black smoke" is a complaint, not a repair procedure. I am fairly certain that the service centre is playing you for an idiot. Also, if ECU reprogramming was essential, why not just do that first to see if the smoke reduced, before tampering with the exhaust system?
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Old 19th November 2011, 10:28   #87
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
"Engine - black smoke" is a complaint, not a repair procedure. I am fairly certain that the service centre is playing you for an idiot.
Engine clean up service is mentioned as a repair in the Invoice, sadly I cannot find that copy but i clearly remember it.

the above scanned copies are details of the work carried out.

Idiot - I may be, but I dont like my car spewing black smoke or running in a bad condition, so i was left with no option.

Quote:
Also, if ECU reprogramming was essential, why not just do that first to see if the smoke reduced, before tampering with the exhaust system?
Because just ECU reprogramming was not enough. Dont you think we would have done that earlier? it yielded no results.
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Old 19th November 2011, 11:05   #88
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
^^^ you saw only the labour charges. have a look at the parts replaced also & add their cost too.

even I have seen very few innovas with such problems. they dont feel underpowered because the handling of innova is car like (read good) and compared to a scorpio or safari, the innova does not need to slow down on turns or does not roll badly during sharp lane changes. that is the reason the driver can maintain that speed IMO.

take the innova to an open road & you will feel the deficit in power (after 100 kmph).

I really think the innova handling is too hyped, it is not car like at all. Just a notch better than the other cars you have mentioned.

we triped to Kodai in an xylo and then the next trip, athirapally in innova, in both we felt considerable body roll, and innova never made us feel car like
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Old 19th November 2011, 13:18   #89
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

We recently had two longish rides in innova (one G and the other V) in a variety of road. Regarding engine, I think it runs out of power soon, compared to my Safari. the driver used to change 3rd to 4th around 40kmph, it is difficult to do so in a safari. So it is likely that it would run out of power above 100kmph, although we did not get any chance to go beyond 70-80 kmph.

The engine pulls very nicely, better than safari.

The driver also claimed that suspension never needs work. this was really funny, considering the way he was driving the innova, not caring for anything on road. And both the cars had more than 1 lakh kms in the odo. It is hard to believe that innovas do not need suspension work.
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Old 19th November 2011, 14:17   #90
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

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The driver also claimed that suspension never needs work. this was really funny, considering the way he was driving the innova, not caring for anything on road. And both the cars had more than 1 lakh kms in the odo. It is hard to believe that innovas do not need suspension work.
A garage supervisor once told me that Toyota suspensions are good for 150k kms (or 5 years whichever is earlier) and Maruti for 50k kms. Dunno about Tata.

Innova / Corolla owners who run their cars helluva lot can throw better light on this.
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