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Old 28th September 2011, 11:06   #1
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Default MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

The questions posed in another thread were
Quote:
Originally Posted by man_and_machine View Post
...the Innova's 2.4 L D-4D generates less torque and power than many other engines (all CDRIs). Take the Vento, the Verna and even the Alits's 1.4 L D-4D. I am wondering is this engine dated or is there a reason that the Innova still needs to have this 2.4 that is rated 102 bhp and 200 nm?

what are the advantages of this engine? Is there another consideration other than bhp and torque (together they provide the power output)?
This thread seeks to answer just that: So what exactly constitutes a "modern" engine, as opposed to an "outdated" one?
  • Is it based on the power and torque outputs per cc?
  • Is it based on the durability of the engine?
  • Is it based on the effortless driveability of the car?
Or is it the engineering nitty-gritties that makes up the engine, such as
  • the latest fuel injection systems,
  • the design of the valves and valve lifting mechanisms,
  • the way the compression chamber is designed,
  • the turbocharging and intercooling layout,
  • the inlet and exhaust design,
  • the cooling system and how efficiently it functions in extreme weather conditions,
and many other such small features incorporated into the construction of the engine? This may be irrespective of the specific power and torque outputs that the particular engine is tuned for or capable of.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 28th September 2011 at 11:10.
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Old 28th September 2011, 11:55   #2
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

Any engine that comes out from any manufacturer, it's as state-of-the-art as that manufacturer can go.
there will be a difference in how SOTA(?) a manufacturer can go based on returns, and cost, say what a mercedes would have under its hood, to what an indica may have.

Now, unless totota is forced out of its way by law, or sheer blown-out-of the-water in the markets in terms of volumes by a similar vehicle, i think theyll follow the "if it aint broke....."

If they see people choosing X over the innova to an extent where people in toyota are sitting up and saying, "hey....", they may may go back to the tacks.
In that case, you may expect the offending component to be suitably updated.
engine?
people are buying X MPV because our engine is not good enough anymore?
lets upgrade.


Incorporating minor upgrades in an intricate component doesnt make sense for a mass volume manufacturer.
maybe if someone from TBHP gets on board, theyll be forced to keep updating the assembly line every month....

however, a culmination of minor upgrades , if adapted by a rival, and hitting toyotas bottom line? that when we'll probably hear of the "new innova".


PS:sorry if this was meant to be a technical discussion, and youve been presented with a management report...

Last edited by mayankk : 28th September 2011 at 11:57.
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Old 28th September 2011, 11:59   #3
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

Some designs just seem to last and last. The Ford Kent series came out in the 1950's and kept on being updated and modified right till the beginning of this century. It saw SPFi, MPFI and the works. Was designed for RWD cars, and was even transformed to fit the FWD designs.
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Old 28th September 2011, 12:01   #4
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
and many other such small features incorporated into the construction of the engine?
IMHO, this is the aspect that makes an Engine modern. 1 Liter Suzuki K-Series and Hundai Kappa engines would have lower power and Torque but it would be more modern as compared to 1.3 Liter engines used in Gypsy.
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Old 28th September 2011, 14:15   #5
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

Any improvements in the following areas would in theory make the engine a more "modern" further improved version of the older gen engine. However, do note that due to most of these factors being very "goody goody", power output usually takes a hit.

- Lower emissions
- Greater fuel efficiency / ie greater overall efficiency
- Lower production cost
- Less material wastage in production / more eco-friendly production
- Greater specific power output (per unit of displacement)
- Reduced weight
- Better NVH
- More durable parts / longer life


cya
R
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Old 28th September 2011, 14:54   #6
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

I think here we should not forget the Bullet engine. The basic design dates back more than half a decade but it is still modern.
And so is the engine in a Hero splendor .AFAIK , its the modified cd100 unit which itself was a old design.
So i really dont know what to call these engines modern or updated engines.
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Old 28th September 2011, 18:49   #7
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

Modern does not mean performance or FE. A modern engine is one that is designed using modern tools and incorporates latest advances in technology. Normally a modern design incorporates
. Better combustion chamber, for more efficient combustion.
. Better Fuel delivery system.
. Lower specific fuel consumption
. Better materials and practices for longer component life

These factors result in
. Higher specific power
. Better FE
. Lower pollution
. Relatively longer intervals between overhauls

In general a more modern design when compared to a similar design of past will have better design resulting in better FE, lower cost of manufacturing and lower pollution. Of course radical designs based on completely new technology/concepts are by definition modern.

What in my opinion is not essential in the definition of a modern engine
. Higher RPM. Racing engines decades ago had crossed 12K RPM.
. Lower noise. Even fifty year old limousines were whisper silent.

The design parameters that can be tuned at design time or during implementation are; but not indication of modern/outdated design; :
. How much fuel to inject. The more you inject; to a limit; the more power you can get. But higher power comes at the cost of a narrower band of power and higher wear and tear.
. Whether to have high torque at low RPM or to have high torque at high RPM. The former will give excellent low speed lugging power - essential for off road and haulage requirements, but limited highway capability, while the latter gives excellent highway capability, but bad low speed lugging power.
. Whether to detune the production engine to increase reliability/service life, or to highly tune the engine to give higher power, at lower reliability/service life.

An interesting case is the military engine for tanks and heavy vehicles. The brief is to have as simple engine as possible, so that there are fewer parts to break down. At the same time make it super reliable. FE and pollution are the last priority. The result is a turbo charged two stroke diesel.

Then we have the Innova or the Pajero Diesel, which have average performance, not so great FE, but extreme reliability.

At the other end we have the BMW 2 liter engines delivering upto twice the power of the above engines with excellent performance and FE.
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Old 28th September 2011, 20:32   #8
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

Its a bit tricky to categorize current gen engines as modern or outdated.

IMO, not going into the technical details, all engines are built to a purpose, and modern or outdated will depend on how well the engine serves its purpose, w.r.t to its competitors/time.

Rehaan and Aroy have put up some valid points/areas where a better or modern engine should outperform its predecessors. Hence its up to the manufacturer to balance out the equation, by giving apt weightage so that the engine serves its purpose pretty well.. and is better or 'modern' in serving its purpose.

That said, and as we are talking about modern engines, IMO, no one does the job better than Honda! atleast in India.

Last edited by dhanushs : 28th September 2011 at 20:34.
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Old 28th September 2011, 21:43   #9
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

A modern engine will produce more power from the cubic-capacity it has, and the power produced would see minimal wastage, and the engine should simultaneously allow for good fuel-efficiency, and cleaner emissions.

So basically, a modern engine should be able to make a greater amount of power from a smaller block, produce lesser emissions and ensure good fuel efficiency, all at the same time.

There was a time when cars had 1.5 and 1.6 liter engines, but made a measly 90 horses, for example, the Hyundai Accent and the Ford Ikon (the Rocam engine in the Ikon was a gem, nevertheless). However, now you get engines like the Swift's K-Series mill and the Jazz's 1.2 iVtec mill, both of which make around 85-90 horses. SO it burns lesser fuel and makes the same power.
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Old 28th September 2011, 22:52   #10
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
- Lower emissions
- Greater fuel efficiency / ie greater overall efficiency
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
Modern does not mean performance or FE.
=================
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
- Lower production cost
- More durable parts / longer life
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
A modern engine is one that is designed using modern tools and incorporates latest advances in technology. Normally a modern design incorporates
. Better combustion chamber, for more efficient combustion.
. Better Fuel delivery system.
. Lower specific fuel consumption
. Better materials and practices for longer component life
====================
Right - that's exactly the debate going on in my mind too - the opposing views that Rehaan and Aroy have put up. I do agree that a modern engine ought to have the latest innovations in materials science incorporated (composites, carbon fibre, newer alloys) but, unfortunately, these will lead to a higher production cost - at least until the technology is more widely used.

Is modernity about changing from 2-valves-per-cylinder pushrods to twin-cam (even camless) 5 valves per cylinder, or is it about incorporating some changes (like fuel injection system) in a pushrod to bump up power, torque and FE? Or is it just about pinning on a few catalysts and EGR systems to make the engine meet Euro-IV/V/VI etc. regulations?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
That said, and as we are talking about modern engines, IMO, no one does the job better than Honda! atleast in India.
Would you like to (for the sake of debate of course) quantify/enumerate the modern features of Honda engines, and do a quick comparison with other similar engines available in India?
Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
A modern engine will produce more power from the cubic-capacity it has, and the power produced would see minimal wastage, and the engine should simultaneously allow for good fuel-efficiency, and cleaner emissions.

So basically, a modern engine should be able to make a greater amount of power from a smaller block, produce lesser emissions and ensure good fuel efficiency, all at the same time.
Does "lesser emissions" translate to better fuel efficiency / more power? Or do the special silencers and EGRs and DPFs and catalysts and what-have-you sap power & FE from an engine, as the cost of saving the environment?

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 28th September 2011 at 22:54.
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Old 28th September 2011, 22:58   #11
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post

Does "lesser emissions" translate to better fuel efficiency / more power? Or do the special silencers and EGRs and DPFs and catalysts and what-have-you sap power & FE from an engine, as the cost of saving the environment?
Not every time.

An engine that can burn the fuel efficiently and cleanly will produce lesser emissions and more power at the same time. Diesel engines are very frugal but still pollute the air like nobody's business. I'm not sure how the cat saps FE, but it does sap power from the engine for the sake of saving the environment. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

You can never really get the best of both worlds. It's hard for a manufacturer of any caliber to achieve it.
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Old 28th September 2011, 23:30   #12
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

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You can never really get the best of both worlds. It's hard for a manufacturer of any caliber to achieve it.
Exactly so. Therefore, is a cast-iron-block, pushrod, 2-valves-per-cylinder, 6L, turbo-/supercharged straight-8 with all the catcons and EGRs to bring it up to Euro-IV/V/VI/**, a modern engine? It costs a lot less to produce than a 6L V-12 all-aluminium. 5 valves per cylinder, quadcam engine running carbon fibre pistons and liners, but does the same job at much the same FE, and the V12 may not even outlast the straight-8 in a cross-country run of 5000km...
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Old 28th September 2011, 23:40   #13
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Exactly so. Therefore, is a cast-iron-block, pushrod, 2-valves-per-cylinder, 6L, turbo-/supercharged straight-8 with all the catcons and EGRs to bring it up to Euro-IV/V/VI/**, a modern engine? It costs a lot less to produce than a 6L V-12 all-aluminium. 5 valves per cylinder, quadcam engine running carbon fibre pistons and liners, but does the same job at much the same FE, and the V12 may not even outlast the straight-8 in a cross-country run of 5000km...
Great point!

The high-strung V12s don't have much left in them these days. Most companies are ditching their V12s for more efficient and refined turbo-V8s. AMG for example is dumping their V12s, and BMW's new F10 based M5 is said to be powered by a bi-turbo-V8 instead of an improved version of the out-going M5's V10.

In the name of reliability and FE, the engines are getting smaller, but seem to make the same amount of power.

The "cast-iron-block, pushrod, 2-valves-per-cylinder, 6L, turbo-/supercharged straight-8 with all the catcons and EGRs to bring it up to Euro-IV/V/VI/**" may not be considered a modern engine. Modern engines can be characterized not only by efficiency and power, but also reliability and refinement. I'm sure the 2-valve push-rod mill would lack refinement. Engines with more valves per cylinder will run more efficiently. If it is a DOHC or a quad-cam, then it's pure technology. Modern engines may not have these features, but that doesn't make them any less modern. Just not capable enough!

Last edited by suhaas307 : 28th September 2011 at 23:44.
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Old 28th September 2011, 23:47   #14
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

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I'm not sure how the cat saps FE, but it does sap power from the engine for the sake of saving the environment. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
The catalytic converter improves fuel efficiency in most cases. Free flow exhaust systems reduce the back-pressure and enable more fuel to flow through... I should know - after I got my car back from loaning to somebody my converter was damaged and my fuel consumption got me a single-digit range per liter for a marginal performance increase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
A modern engine will produce more power from the cubic-capacity it has, and the power produced would see minimal wastage, and the engine should simultaneously allow for good fuel-efficiency, and cleaner emissions.
My 1.5L Peugeot TUD5 doesn't provide the power of the newer Fiat 1.3L MJD and seems to have been retired by all automobile manufacturers in India. However, I seem to be getting more miles per liter of fuel in my Maruti Esteem Di 2004 than in a Maruti Suzuki Swift so I believe the engines are tuned differently.
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Old 29th September 2011, 10:14   #15
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Default Re: MODERN or OUTDATED: How do you classify an engine as either?

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Originally Posted by k_nitin_r View Post
The catalytic converter improves fuel efficiency in most cases. Free flow exhaust systems reduce the back-pressure and enable more fuel to flow through... I should know - after I got my car back from loaning to somebody my converter was damaged and my fuel consumption got me a single-digit range per liter for a marginal performance increase.
Er, how are you relating a damaged cat to a free flow exhaust?
Your drop in mileage was probably due to a semi-critical component, the cat, rather than any flow happening freely.
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