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Old 16th November 2011, 20:02   #151
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

me
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Yes, brake fade is usually temparature driven and the higher temparature is caused when the braking system is over-stressed! It could be a case where the New Swift's braking system is using a conservative specification from the lower models of MSIL's portfolio (e.g. Alto/WagonR).
I am not saying Maruti is using components from lower segment models, the price point at which OE manufactures are forced to supply components , specifically to lower end models, may have caused this. material issue.
And the ZETEC had a similar characteristics, even at lower speed [bumper to bumper traffic] the fad was evident.
In the swift's case, it may be materials as well as booster.

I got my car serviced today [second service] spoke to the service adviser, regarding the brake issue, the first response from him was ' do you own a old swift' after questioning why he asked me , I got a reply saying no one except you has noticed it. And than topic was changed. But there was no reply as to why this is happening.Brakes were cleaned that's about it.

Last edited by dinar : 16th November 2011 at 20:12.
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Old 16th November 2011, 21:11   #152
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

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Originally Posted by dinar View Post
me

I got my car serviced today [second service] spoke to the service adviser, regarding the brake issue, the first response from him was ' do you own a old swift' after questioning why he asked me , I got a reply saying no one except you has noticed it. And than topic was changed. But there was no reply as to why this is happening.Brakes were cleaned that's about it.
This is so silly on part of the SA. Clear way of not taking up the responsibility.

I had also mentioned the brake issue to my service adviser during the first service. The reason he gave me was that because its a diesel, its heavy, and thus requires us to press the brake more.. I did not start an argument with him (I felt there would have been no outcome of the conversation).
If any BHPian has a petrol Swift (L/V variant). Would like to know if he/she is also facing the same issue.

I wonder how many new model swifts have been taken for the service till now. As till the first service we usually limit the car to 80 kmph, and mostly avoid taking long trips. So, its a bit difficult to figure out the brakes issue for most of us. I am sure as the number of Swifts increase on the road, there will be many of them taking this issue to Maruti.

Till then, we'll have to, "Drive Safe".

Last edited by diesel_power : 16th November 2011 at 21:13.
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Old 18th November 2011, 10:40   #153
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

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Originally Posted by moralfibre View Post
I believe Maruti is still working at a solution and hasn't called me up yet. I shall update everyone with details as soon as I have any.
I had first received a call from Maruti on Monday / Tuesday (don't recollect). The gentleman from the other side assured me that I will receive a call from Maruti. Again received a call from Maruti Suzuki representative yesterday morning stating he will contact the local service station to have my problem checked up. I was disappointed a little bit since I don't think it could be solved by the service station and it requires expertise from their core engineering teams.

Got a call about half an hour ago from Sai Service Customer care manager asking me to get the car to the service station on Tuesday for rectification. There would be engineers from Maruti who would like to inspect the problem. I told him that I would like to be around when they assess the issue and he was fine with it.

Next update on Tuesday after the customer care manager confirms the time at which I need to be there.
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Old 18th November 2011, 16:08   #154
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by moralfibre View Post
Got a call about half an hour ago from Sai Service Customer care manager asking me to get the car to the service station on Tuesday for rectification. There would be engineers from Maruti who would like to inspect the problem. I told him that I would like to be around when they assess the issue and he was fine with it.
Next update on Tuesday after the customer care manager confirms the time at which I need to be there.
Good to see some progress here.
I was wondering if it would be a good idea to have another Gen2 Swift owner (L/V variant) accompany you so that the technical team is made well aware that this is not a one off issue and that all the new L/V variants have a similar issue. If required they can check both the cars to verify the same.

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Old 18th November 2011, 16:29   #155
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

So the crap car co. is yet not sorted out this breaking issue LOL.
I have lost the hopes and after experiencing their crap local representative i promised myself that i will never touch their car once ill dispose the current crap.
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Old 22nd November 2011, 11:20   #156
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

^^^ Your car seems to have a different issue than what is discussed here. While this thread is discussing "braking" or the lack of it in L & V versions of the Swift, your issue seems to be about the car breaking up and moreover your car's make (Crap - innovative name BTW) is different.

@Viju, your posts were quite informative. Thanks. So, mechanical brake-assist is better off in ABS equipped cars and a 9" booster is par for the course for a car of Swift's size/weight. You also mention that all variants of the new Swift also have a 9 inch brake booster, with the improvement in servo ratio carried over.

Yet we still have members concerned about the lack of braking in L/V variants, which is frightening to say the least. We can live with a car that does not have quick performance, but a car that does not stop quickly is dangerous. If you have any information about how MSIL plans to rectify this, it would be very helpful.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 09:59   #157
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Update:

I reached the service station at 11:40 yesterday and met the customer care manager for Sai Service, Mr. Ravi. After a brief wait I was introduced to their Dy. Manager for Service Mr. Abhijit and was escorted to a conference room where we had three representatives from Maruti Suzuki India's Brake division. One of them wasn't a technical guy while the other two actively work in their R&D division for brakes. It was a heart warming feeling to be interacting with someone who works day in and day out on brakes for all cars out of the Maruti Suzuki stable.

The first session was an interactive discussion whereby the manager from MSIL asked me to describe my issue while the techies made notes. I was asked every minute detail of the incidents and the conclusion I derived with respect to braking on the car. I told them what I experienced and what is written on this thread. They asked a few questions like what I feel is more prominent, whether its the pedal travel or the brake response, etc.

After about 20-25 minutes of interaction we went onto the workshop floor where the car was on a ramp. The techies first did a static inspection of the brakes and made notes. They did not find anything unusual. Then it was time for a test drive. They wanted me to drive and point out the issue I feel is a problem. So, after several braking attempts, I still had a feeling that the brakes lacked bite as well as the pedal travel being too high and less confidence inspiring with respect to the response and stopping power. Later on the two techies took turns and did some high speed brake slamming to see if the brakes respond as per spec and as per them they do. I continued to feel that the brakes respond too slowly and lack the response and bite I usually see from other cars. They asked me whether I had noticed brake fade and I mentioned my observations during the drive to Goa. Later they asked me if I had any burning smell in the car after braking in a panic situation. I hadn't had an experience of burning smell anytime.

We went back to the service station and they put the car back on ramp to open up the brake system to check for any faulty parts. After opening up the brake system, they noticed that the brake pads had burnt out. But I doubt that the burnt brake pads were a cause of the issue since I am sure my car did not come with burnt pads from day one. They did routine checks along the brake system and replaced the brake pads for free. They took pictures of the burnt pads and decided to take them back for further analysis. Brake bleeding was done and they took the car out for another round of trial. Since new brake pads take time to settle, I knew we wouldn't be able to derive much out of a test drive. But we did take a trial and the brakes weren't effective (obviously). I told them that irrespective of their inspection, I continue to feel that:

1) The effort required on the brake pedal is high.
2) There was lack of bite and response from the system leading to an increased effort on the brake pedal.
3) At the same time the brake pedal feels soft (spongy).

They mentioned that:
  • European regulations demand that there shouldn't be a wheel lock upon sudden slamming of brakes and wheels should lock only after some effort is put in. This is to avoid accidental lock up of wheels on lower impact on the brake pedal.
  • This brake system has been developed after taking customer feedback from the old Swift.
  • Apparently, the old Swift had lesser brake pedal travel and thereby passengers observed a sudden jerk (used to leap forward), upon braking. Hence to have a comfortable drive during braking, they have increased the pedal travel. This inturn leads to a "notion" that the car doesn't jerk during braking.
  • They claim that the brake bite, response, stopping power, booster power is improved vis-a-vis the old Swift, only the brake feel inside the cabin has changed.
  • There was no booster recall done for the old Swift and the size of the booster was same across all the models. What they introduced in the old Swift was an "improvement" based on customer feedback.
They replaced brake pads in my car are yet to set in. I will wait for another 5-6 days to get a proper feel of the brakes. The guys at Maruti Suzuki were very courteous and prompt in responding to my doubts. I would like to give a big thank you to their team for taking time out of their schedules to address my issue. Even though the issue (my feeling) with the brakes continues to haunt me, I'll give them a benefit of doubt and wait until 5-6 days to provide a feedback. They are reading this thread and I hope they took my feedback in the right spirit.

I would like to have fellow members from Pune / Bombay to drive my car when we meet and let me know if its just me who feels that the brake response is average and what the engineers from Maruti Suzuki mentioned is true?

team-bhpians dinar and diesel_power, could you guys put up your observations so far with respect to brakes on your cars? That would help others understand the issue I have been facing.

A big thank you to team-bhp! Without the forum, there wouldn't have been a medium to have this interaction with fellow enthusiasts.

Last edited by moralfibre : 23rd November 2011 at 10:01.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 10:20   #158
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Generally, when a representative from company inspects a car along with a customer, they always try to state that everything is normal (as per specs), there can be two reasons to this:-
a) The guy does not have a comprehensive knowledge (yes I am serious, I've seen such fellows)
b) He knows there is a problem and is pretending otherwise.

If the guy is from the second category, he would have known the solution 95 times out of 100 and if he feels some links are missing, he would go back analyze and put forth his finding for improvement to his boss / management.

One more thing, were the two R&D guys both from Brake Design or Brake Testing?

Spike
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Old 23rd November 2011, 11:18   #159
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Firstly, I would like to thank Maruti for taking a look into customerís problems. And, thank you moralfibre for taking the initiative.


Here is what I have felt in the 1800 kms that I have driven in my Swift VDi.

1. The brake pedal travels a lot.
Due to this we do not feel the certain point at which we know that, yes a bit more pressing will lock the wheels. This feel is what we get in most of the cars, pedal travels and at a point it gets a bit hard, and that is absent in the new swift. This is making the brakes feel spongy.

2. This spongy feel to the pedal does not have the feedback as we need/expect (brake bite).

3. Brakes are ok if we just need to slow down the car, but when we need to brake in emergencies, itís very very ineffective. Ineffective in terms to the person driving the car, we have to press the pedal a lot more to bring the car to a screeching halt. (Braking point at just a flex of the toe will be the best).


Finally Maruti, what we are looking for is:
a. Less brake pedal travel.
b. No spongy feeling on the pedal.
c. A point at which we know that the brake are at its maximum (brake bite). And for this point we donít want to press the brake pedal all to the floor.


Thank you Team BHP.

diesel.
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Old 30th November 2011, 12:01   #160
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

@moralfibre: Any further updates, how is the response now
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Old 2nd December 2011, 09:15   #161
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Thanks Diesel power for your feedback and my observation kind of matches yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunrider View Post
@moralfibre: Any further updates, how is the response now
Very bad. There is no difference. I had a feeling that the brake pads might have been the culprit but there is no change in the "feel" and "bite" on the brakes. They simply respond like non-booster assited brakes. Its time Maruti looks into this at high priority. I am going to write to their regional service manager who gave me his business card when I met them.
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Old 2nd December 2011, 12:59   #162
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by moralfibre View Post
Thanks Diesel power for your feedback and my observation kind of matches yours.



Very bad. There is no difference. I had a feeling that the brake pads might have been the culprit but there is no change in the "feel" and "bite" on the brakes. They simply respond like non-booster assited brakes. Its time Maruti looks into this at high priority. I am going to write to their regional service manager who gave me his business card when I met them.

Oh ok, I am getting my Swift VDi in next 10 days, now I am concerned about these issues and thinking to reconsider Punto Emotion.

How about the rattling issues, are they sorted out, I know its too early to comment on.
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Old 9th December 2011, 11:26   #163
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by moralfibre View Post
Update:

I reached the service station at 11:40 yesterday and met the customer care manager for Sai Service, Mr. Ravi. After a brief wait I was introduced to their Dy. Manager for Service Mr. Abhijit and was escorted to a conference room where we had three representatives from Maruti Suzuki India's Brake division. One of them wasn't a technical guy while the other two actively work in their R&D division for brakes. It was a heart warming feeling to be interacting with someone who works day in and day out on brakes for all cars out of the Maruti Suzuki stable.

The first session was an interactive discussion whereby the manager from MSIL asked me to describe my issue while the techies made notes. I was asked every minute detail of the incidents and the conclusion I derived with respect to braking on the car. I told them what I experienced and what is written on this thread. They asked a few questions like what I feel is more prominent, whether its the pedal travel or the brake response, etc.

After about 20-25 minutes of interaction we went onto the workshop floor where the car was on a ramp. The techies first did a static inspection of the brakes and made notes. They did not find anything unusual. Then it was time for a test drive. They wanted me to drive and point out the issue I feel is a problem. So, after several braking attempts, I still had a feeling that the brakes lacked bite as well as the pedal travel being too high and less confidence inspiring with respect to the response and stopping power. Later on the two techies took turns and did some high speed brake slamming to see if the brakes respond as per spec and as per them they do. I continued to feel that the brakes respond too slowly and lack the response and bite I usually see from other cars. They asked me whether I had noticed brake fade and I mentioned my observations during the drive to Goa. Later they asked me if I had any burning smell in the car after braking in a panic situation. I hadn't had an experience of burning smell anytime.

We went back to the service station and they put the car back on ramp to open up the brake system to check for any faulty parts. After opening up the brake system, they noticed that the brake pads had burnt out. But I doubt that the burnt brake pads were a cause of the issue since I am sure my car did not come with burnt pads from day one. They did routine checks along the brake system and replaced the brake pads for free. They took pictures of the burnt pads and decided to take them back for further analysis. Brake bleeding was done and they took the car out for another round of trial. Since new brake pads take time to settle, I knew we wouldn't be able to derive much out of a test drive. But we did take a trial and the brakes weren't effective (obviously). I told them that irrespective of their inspection, I continue to feel that:

1) The effort required on the brake pedal is high.
2) There was lack of bite and response from the system leading to an increased effort on the brake pedal.
3) At the same time the brake pedal feels soft (spongy).

They mentioned that:
  • European regulations demand that there shouldn't be a wheel lock upon sudden slamming of brakes and wheels should lock only after some effort is put in. This is to avoid accidental lock up of wheels on lower impact on the brake pedal.
  • This brake system has been developed after taking customer feedback from the old Swift.
  • Apparently, the old Swift had lesser brake pedal travel and thereby passengers observed a sudden jerk (used to leap forward), upon braking. Hence to have a comfortable drive during braking, they have increased the pedal travel. This inturn leads to a "notion" that the car doesn't jerk during braking.
  • They claim that the brake bite, response, stopping power, booster power is improved vis-a-vis the old Swift, only the brake feel inside the cabin has changed.
  • There was no booster recall done for the old Swift and the size of the booster was same across all the models. What they introduced in the old Swift was an "improvement" based on customer feedback.
They replaced brake pads in my car are yet to set in. I will wait for another 5-6 days to get a proper feel of the brakes. The guys at Maruti Suzuki were very courteous and prompt in responding to my doubts. I would like to give a big thank you to their team for taking time out of their schedules to address my issue. Even though the issue (my feeling) with the brakes continues to haunt me, I'll give them a benefit of doubt and wait until 5-6 days to provide a feedback. They are reading this thread and I hope they took my feedback in the right spirit.

I would like to have fellow members from Pune / Bombay to drive my car when we meet and let me know if its just me who feels that the brake response is average and what the engineers from Maruti Suzuki mentioned is true?

team-bhpians dinar and diesel_power, could you guys put up your observations so far with respect to brakes on your cars? That would help others understand the issue I have been facing.

A big thank you to team-bhp! Without the forum, there wouldn't have been a medium to have this interaction with fellow enthusiasts.

Good to hear that Maruti is at least trying to solve the issue with your car.
What is really Annoys me is no one is ready to understand the problem is of brake feel. What part of the 'feel' is not getting into anyone Brain at Maruti.
My 10 year old esteem gives a better feel, even my Old Indica has better feel than the New swift.

I did not understand these parts of the Argument by Maruti.

European regulations demand that there shouldn't be a wheel lock upon sudden slamming of brakes and wheels should lock only after some effort is put in. This is to avoid accidental lock up of wheels on lower impact on the brake pedal.


The brake do lock up , it's only that the driver does not know when it's going to happen in the new swift, where as in the old one the driver would get use to the force and the travel on the brake paddle at which the lock up would happen.
To prevent the accidental lock up ,paddle travel part of the argument is understandable, give a little travel to the paddle so no one locks the brake on just touching them. This may be what is causing the difference in the feel of force required to stop the car.
But the whole point here is that one should know when the brakes are biting into the rotors and after which the driver modulates the force on the paddle depending on the speed reduction happening, this part is missing in the new swift.

Apparently, the old Swift had lesser brake pedal travel and thereby passengers observed a sudden jerk (used to leap forward), upon braking. Hence to have a comfortable drive during braking, they have increased the pedal travel. This inturn leads to a "notion" that the car doesn't jerk during braking.

No one wants the car to jerk while slowing down or stopping, but the speed reduction can not be judged by the driver for a particular travel and a particular force on the paddle, to which with any new car a driver get use to within couple of KM drive.

I still can not judge the rate of speed reduction of the car at a particular travel of the paddle and the force required to do that reduction, even after 6500 Km of driving.


Quote:
Originally Posted by diesel_power View Post

Finally Maruti, what we are looking for is:
a. Less brake pedal travel.
b. No spongy feeling on the pedal.
c. A point at which we know that the brake are at its maximum (brake bite). And for this point we donít want to press the brake pedal all to the floor.


Thank you Team BHP.

diesel.
Spot on Buddy.

I hope Maruti can understand the issues.
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Old 9th December 2011, 14:08   #164
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

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Originally Posted by gunrider View Post
Oh ok, I am getting my Swift VDi in next 10 days, now I am concerned about these issues and thinking to reconsider Punto Emotion.

How about the rattling issues, are they sorted out, I know its too early to comment on.
Gunrider I have the new Swift ZDi and have completed 5k odd kms and there is no rattling of any sorts . It is sad that the VDI's are facing the braking issue. My advice to you is upgrade to the ZDI and have peace of mind!
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Old 9th December 2011, 14:28   #165
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

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Originally Posted by Racer_X View Post
My advice to you is upgrade to the ZDI and have peace of mind!

I agree with Racer X. Their is no breaking issue with Zdi model. They are quite responsive and up to the mark. This may be due to the ABS/EBD not equipped in Vdi.

But it is good to hear that MSIL is keen to solve the problem of its most popular model.
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