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Old 12th October 2011, 15:19   #46
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

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Originally Posted by theexperthand View Post
Bro, I never said or felt your technique will not work for Suman, all I said was, I was not really comfortable to shift to neutral and break.

My concern is about the common folk who presumably will not have access or know how to different techniques.

What you have given is a workaround - there is no issues in giving a workaround, but a workaround is not a solution. Do you really think all these people who complained (including GTO) have raised the concern without a base?

While you and all of us are here to give workarounds and possible alternate solutions, what about the common man who do not have access to the know how?
That logic I FULLY agree with. I'm just saying its a useful workaround.

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Originally Posted by suman View Post
So does the Diesel Swift have different parameters compared to other Diesels?

Never in my 1.10 lakh kilometers odd of driving Diesels have I ever had to switch to "Neutral" while braking. In fact, shifting to neutral & "coasting" is one of the worst diseases that plague a large number of drivers on our roads today

And, to be honest, all this about how a person brakes a Petrol car versus a Diesel car is pure conjecture on your part methinks. Do let me know the number of kilometers clocked in a Petrol car as compared to the 73k on your current ride. I have never felt a difference in the past six years when I have been driving both the Diesel & the Petrol in-house, side by side. Lets not try to defend shoddy braking on the Swift. Can't say I've heard anyone else complaining about this on any other Diesel Car versus its Petrol sibling so why the Swift? It is just poor brakes IMHO, that's all.
I've driven much less in a petrol car - only about 20k tops. But the way I brake in a petrol vs a diesel is different. In a petrol i don't need to shift into neutral because it doesn't have the rubber band effect that even mtnrajdeep mentioned.

Why do you label it as a disease- this is not coasting without purpose! Do try braking with neutral from high speeds as well to say its inferior?!

I asked spadix to give his perspective because he experienced the sharp braking of my swift diesel firsthand. But let's move beyond my car.

Interesting - I'd gladly schedule a test drive of the new swift diesel. Let's see how it behaves.

PS: The same statement comes from having let other friends and relatives (all petrol/CNG car owners) drive my car in these years, and seeing them brake. It was a first hand demonstration that the car would brake much more reassuringly and strongly - that they modified the way they drove my car.
PPS: I'd be glad if Kiran atleast tries it out and if despite shifting to neutral, his car still brakes pathetic then its truly a cause for concern and a risk on the highways

Dear Noopster,

Yes, I remember that thread precisely. I had exactly the same logic back then as well:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post1110503 (Shifting to Neutral or Pressing the Clutch when Braking - Is this right?)

please take a swift diesel - in 4th gear - just slam on the brakes and tell me how the engine responds - is it same as a petrol does? Do you experience what mtnrajdeep said? (my experience is only m800/alto/indica).

Please try the workaround before you ask mods to "clean up the thread". Bah.

Last edited by phamilyman : 12th October 2011 at 15:28.
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Old 12th October 2011, 15:32   #47
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Hitanshu, when you propagate a theory as you are, you really need to establish that it is valid for all cars & not just "your" Swift

When I brake, I would like my car to stop without any fuss. If I have to compensate by coasting, drifting, shifting into neutral etc etc, I mean Come on, who has the time or the energy? And I've lived with a Safari VX for almost 5 years, don't forget. Never had to do any of this. Some of my acquaintances tell me that the brakes on the LX & EX versions of the Safari are not very good - I accept their judgement, 'cos to me its not a generic issue with Diesel Safaris but specific. Hope you get my drift.

Its also not about whether your "workaround" is correct or incorrect, its about why there should be a need for a workaround if the brakes work the way they are aupposed to

Last edited by suman : 12th October 2011 at 15:36.
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Old 12th October 2011, 16:11   #48
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Gentlemen, calm down. I brought up this topic for two reasons:

1) I am fully aware that the brakes are not adequate. They are poorer than the outgoing model that Phamilyman owns. I have had enough miles put up on the old Swift and have gone out of control once too. In a similar situation, I am sure I would crash the new Swift.

2) I want to stress on the fact that I should have shelled out extra and bought the ZDi. That would have brought me peace of mind. But, why should the L & V specs be widow makers? They do deserve better brakes. They are pathetic to say the least.

I have had considerable experience driving diesel cars that include the Skoda Octavia, old Swift D, Hyundai Getz CRDi. All on the same roads where I drove the the new Swift. I know those roads at the back of my hand and am very well aware of basics on controlling a car. I never had to use any of the techniques provided by Phamilyman to stop the car. Heck, all I did was slammed on the brakes only to realize that the car wouldn't stop.

The Innova experience was just one of the two I had. The other one involved a Volvo bus overtaking a tanker coming uphill while I was going downhill on a curve. I had to get off the road because I knew my car wouldn't stop on time and the brake response was non existent. Thankfully the NH-17 in Goa has enough shoulder width to accomodate my car. I doubt, shifting to neutral and slamming the brakes would have helped here.

I wouldn't dismiss the theory until I try it. But, for now, I would like to assure you guys that the brakes are pathetic and could prove fatal to an unskilled driver. If you feel it isn't try the new Swift on a long highway drive and provide your feedback.

If you really want to see what brakes a good Diesel hatchback deserves, try the Hyundai Getz CRDi. Without ABS/EBD/BA it comes to a grinding halt the moment you tap the brakes. And the suspension, dynamics, et al on the Getz are nothing to write home about.

Last edited by Technocrat : 13th October 2011 at 05:06. Reason: Highlighting your *key* points
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Old 12th October 2011, 16:30   #49
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
I've driven much less in a petrol car - only about 20k tops. But the way I brake in a petrol vs a diesel is different. In a petrol i don't need to shift into neutral because it doesn't have the rubber band effect that even mtnrajdeep mentioned.
Do you think there maybe a problem in your car that requires to shift to neutral when braking hard.

I haven't done anything of the sort in my Figo especially at speeds.

Although in city you need to press the clutch at slow speeds as the car will start accelerating when it comes close to stalling. On the highway this never happens unless your at 80kmph and slam the brakes causing the wheels to lock or when the speed goes below 40kmph (in 5th gear) in which case rpm goes below idle and car will try not to stall.

Both of those are rare circumstances and happen only during emergency braking not for regular highway braking or hard controlled braking.
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Old 12th October 2011, 16:35   #50
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Do you think there maybe a problem in your car that requires to shift to neutral when braking hard.

I haven't done anything of the sort in my Figo especially at speeds.

Although in city you need to press the clutch at slow speeds as the car will start accelerating when it comes close to stalling. On the highway this never happens unless your at 80kmph and slam the brakes causing the wheels to lock or when the speed goes below 40kmph (in 5th gear) in which case rpm goes below idle and car will try not to stall.

Both of those are rare circumstances and happen only during emergency braking not for regular highway braking or hard controlled braking.
Thanks - maybe I am just a much more aggressive driver and the kind of expressway driving I do - its just much more efficient for me and now its the way I drive. And I don't believe its particularly inferior either.

In my experience, it just gives me better braking control as I slow down - and of course, I am always looking to shift into the right gear for the traffic I am merging into.
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Old 12th October 2011, 16:40   #51
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

I used to always feel the the VDi has inefficient brakes. Even on my (now) older gen VDi that is the feeling I get. Just a few weeks ago, I drove the Swift to office. At one time, when I had to brake hard, I had the feeling, that I would rear end the car in front of me. Luckily after standing on the brakes, it halted metres away from the car ahead.

So, Phamilyman, here's one owner of a prev gen VDi confirming that the brakes are inadequate. No amount of "shifting to neutrel" or, "pressing clutch while braking" has helped. The brakes are simply.... inadequate. Period.

Is there anyway, one can upgrade to the new so called brake boosters? I had asked this in Sai Serivce, but they as usual were tight lipped on the brake boosters subject.

Kiran, have you taken it up with Sai Service? What's their say? This is serious indeed. The most important aspect of a car not functioning properly can be disasterous, to say the least.
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Old 12th October 2011, 17:39   #52
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

ahhh this is a nice discussion. Following are my observations from my own experience driving swift Vdi for over 55k kms.

Brakes- They are efficient and respectable, not the best but definitely not that bad either.

Reason why brakes feel less efficient in comparison to petrol is, the engine. This engine has a very heavy flywheel compared to a petrol swift. Add additional weight to the front to the equation. So when you get into panic braking, the engine deceleration is not the best, especially at higher gears. Hope you have not forgotten that it has an ECU also, ECU inherently is programmed to keep the engine spinning, so it compensates behind the scenes i assume.

Now after reading that, you would feel this is a hazard waiting to happen. Well there is something else, which i atleast have noticed in my car. Initially i thought it was a flaw, but now am quite convinced it might be built into the system.

How many of you have noticed that engine trying to disengage under heavy breaking? like a sudden jerk. First time i noticed it was, when i was careless stopping, and forgot to declutch, the car gave a jerk and disconnected the drive. I think when the retarding speed is higher than normal the clutch is disengaging itself. Is this the problem being discussed? You can try replicating this by putting the car in second while coasting to stop but not disengaging the clutch using pedal. It will kinda shunt the whole transmission before eventually switching off.

Initially i thought it was my clutch at its last leg, but everytime i complain, my SA gives me a weird look. So am assuming that its designed to disengage and reduce the load on brakes, and assist in stopping especially in higher gear.

But there is a far simpler way to avoid all this, apart from moving to neutral. Downshift. I have been training my car to downshift and upshift in higher RPM from the early days. So it obliges pretty well. Reason why i said training is, i have noticed other swift diesels infact other diesel cars also, where the engine and the box are not so enthusiastic, while downshifting. Diesels generally are not. Trick is to do a blip of the throttle to match the RPM so that the whole process is quite smooth. EDIT: I vaguely remember Vidyut commenting about smooth down shifts while driving pretty fast to airport once.??

Try braking in a petrol engine vehicle while keeping the idle RPM high, braking in diesel will be quite similar. The difference is the engine retardation. Known fact Petrol engine offers better natural deceleration compared to diesel. I think this was discussed in the 4x4 section also. Though diesel engines with very slow idle RPM/Low Revs/Heavy flywheel will give a perception of heavier engine braking.

I have done my fare share of heavy braking and never had an issue, maybe am a very assertive driver, still i have got into pretty awkward situation to confirm. Once Rudra on his Optra came and stopped an inch away from my car when i did a panic brake en route to coorg. So i cant claim they are thaaat bad. But yes the petrol swift i use (very similar age) still feels stronger, if am not bothered with proper downshift method, in comparison.

@moral, another theory from my side. Does the new swift have heavier fly wheels? This may be the reason why the woosh is also considerably less and not really an ECU change?

Last edited by Jaggu : 12th October 2011 at 18:14.
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Old 12th October 2011, 18:23   #53
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

From GTO's review, the new Swift is the best handling hatch south of 10 lakhs! For such a great handler, its all the more dangerous to have below average or poor brakes. Because with great handling, people will have a tendency to maintain a higher speed.

I think its a shame on Maruti's side... Also, last month I had been to a Maruti showroom here in Coimbatore to check out the new Swift. I asked for a test drive and they did not give me one - saying that the test drive vehicle is not registered or something. All what the SA had to tell me was that "Sir, you book the vehicle, its a Maruti and the new Swift is a great car!". She didn't care to take down my number either... I was wondering what the high market share and popularity has done to Maruti and its dealers!!! :-)
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Old 12th October 2011, 20:17   #54
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Although in city you need to press the clutch at slow speeds as the car will start accelerating when it comes close to stalling. On the highway this never happens unless your at 80kmph and slam the brakes causing the wheels to lock or when the speed goes below 40kmph (in 5th gear) in which case rpm goes below idle and car will try not to stall.
This is exactly what I face in my car. But, in panic braking situations, the speed reduces very fast and it is possible that you even come close to the idle rpm and then you may feel that the car doesnt want to stop!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
How many of you have noticed that engine trying to disengage under heavy breaking? like a sudden jerk. First time i noticed it was, when i was careless stopping, and forgot to declutch, the car gave a jerk and disconnected the drive. I think when the retarding speed is higher than normal the clutch is disengaging itself. Is this the problem being discussed? You can try replicating this by putting the car in second while coasting to stop but not disengaging the clutch using pedal. It will kinda shunt the whole transmission before eventually switching off.
I do! Thats the signal to downshift or go to neutral!

Last edited by mtnrajdeep : 12th October 2011 at 20:34.
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Old 13th October 2011, 01:54   #55
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Today only, I was complaining about the brakes of swift diesel to Bhpian ACE_355 and here goes a discussion. The brakes of petrol swift are definitely much better than that of diesel (no-abs atleast). I have complaint about this on the day I first drove a vdi 3 years back and again last week when the tires of the same car were upgraded from stock MRF 165s to A-Drives 185s.. and I expected better braking but I was wrong. the braking of swift diesel remains poor.

And yes, I say this after over 5k kms of driving on swift petrol over time and over 1k kms of driving on swift diesel..
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Old 13th October 2011, 02:20   #56
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Lightbulb Thanks Jaggu!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
ahhh this is a nice discussion. Following are my observations from my own experience driving swift Vdi for over 55k kms.

Brakes- They are efficient and respectable, not the best but definitely not that bad either.

Reason why brakes feel less efficient in comparison to petrol is, the engine. This engine has a very heavy flywheel compared to a petrol swift. Add additional weight to the front to the equation. So when you get into panic braking, the engine deceleration is not the best, especially at higher gears. Hope you have not forgotten that it has an ECU also, ECU inherently is programmed to keep the engine spinning, so it compensates behind the scenes i assume.

Now after reading that, you would feel this is a hazard waiting to happen. Well there is something else, which i atleast have noticed in my car. Initially i thought it was a flaw, but now am quite convinced it might be built into the system.

How many of you have noticed that engine trying to disengage under heavy breaking? like a sudden jerk. First time i noticed it was, when i was careless stopping, and forgot to declutch, the car gave a jerk and disconnected the drive. I think when the retarding speed is higher than normal the clutch is disengaging itself. Is this the problem being discussed?

But there is a far simpler way to avoid all this, apart from moving to neutral. Downshift. I have been training my car to downshift and upshift in higher RPM from the early days. So it obliges pretty well. Reason why i said training is, i have noticed other swift diesels infact other diesel cars also, where the engine and the box are not so enthusiastic, while downshifting. Diesels generally are not. Trick is to do a blip of the throttle to match the RPM so that the whole process is quite smooth. EDIT: I vaguely remember Vidyut commenting about smooth down shifts while driving pretty fast to airport once.??

Try braking in a petrol engine vehicle while keeping the idle RPM high, braking in diesel will be quite similar. The difference is the engine retardation. Known fact Petrol engine offers better natural deceleration compared to diesel.


You've put it in a much more reasoned manner. Another reason not to post in 2 mins flat while multitasking!

In my case, I shift into neutral because my driving is only in 2 modes:
- Expressway at 80-100 speeds (and where u shift into 15-20 kph straight away)
- Crawl in traffic at 15-20 kph.

I suspect - one will develop a downshift pattern if your traffic allows you to drive much more at 40-60 kph.

But anyways, thanks again for constructively taking the discussion to the next level!
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Old 13th October 2011, 09:36   #57
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

All you guys talking about braking techniques are missing the point of Moralfiber's thread. Drive the '11 Swift VDi & ZDi back to back - in the EXACT SAME DRIVING STYLE (whether right or wrong) - and you will come back & say that the VDi's brakes absolutely suck! With the new Swift, it is NOT a matter of driving style at all. It's about intentionally giving the L & V versions poor brakes.
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Old 13th October 2011, 10:03   #58
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
All you guys talking about braking techniques are missing the point of Moralfiber's thread. Drive the '11 Swift VDi & ZDi back to back - in the EXACT SAME DRIVING STYLE (whether right or wrong) - and you will come back & say that the VDi's brakes absolutely suck! With the new Swift, it is NOT a matter of driving style at all. It's about intentionally giving the L & V versions poor brakes.
Cant comment coz i have not driven either, but Zdi with ABS, EBD blah blah SHOULD have better characteristics than Vdi. Any idea how the new swift Vdi compare with old Vdi?
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Old 13th October 2011, 10:06   #59
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

Just to give you guys suggesting a switch to neutral before braking, I tried it this morning at 7:00 am on my way to work. The result: No difference! Tried downshifting and the engine braking helped.

I am fully aware that the braking systems in petrol cars use the vacuum from the intake manifold to the booster to assist braking. The same is not the case with Diesels. So braking has to be substantially less in Diesel cars. So, why not provide better brakes in diesels from the factory itself?

Jaggu, I understand that an adapted driving technique can provide better results. But, if I were to pass the car on to my wife (who's a newbie driver). She surely won't be able to do any of what you've mentioned in order to stop the car. Agree?

I am sure you will have access to a Diesel Getz somewhere in your friends circle, try driving it. It has more horses, more torque, lesser turbo lag, poor suspension, poor driving dynamics and the brakes are still far far better. It stops just as good as its petrol counterpart.
I test drove the Ford Figo Diesel with ABS, without ABS, the petrol version, etc. All of them have equally good brakes. (Viddy can vouch for it).

I am making a visit to the service center this weekend. Want to make sure that it isn't a silly issue like an airlock in the braking system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Any idea how the new swift Vdi compare with old Vdi?
I'll tell you, pathetic!
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Old 13th October 2011, 10:08   #60
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Default Re: Attention: New Maruti Suzuki Swift Brake Issue

So is there a solution? Can brakes be enhanced aftermarket? I guess Kiran and other Ldi/Vdi owners have already had to alter their driving style to accommodate the weak brakes. I had a similar problem with my 2000 Accent GLS: the brakes would not slow me down as much as I thought they should. After a close shave or two, I learned to live with it though I would complain to their A.s.s every time I gave the car in.
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