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Old 8th March 2006, 17:27   #1
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Default Problem: MPFI Esteem Engine Shudder

My MPFI Esteem (73000 Km) has been gradually developing a problem over the last few weeks: the engine shudders (excess vibration) during idle and while starting off. While running at high rpm, it is very smooth, has great acceleration and I am able to reach top speed quite easily. It is also running very efficiently (15+ Kmpl on the highway w/o AC).

I always let it warm up till the temp. gauge reaches at least the "C" mark; but that's when the vibration starts. (800 - 1000 RPM). If I rev up the engine in neutral, it runs smoothly. While starting off in 1st, the shuddering is evident only if I release the clutch quickly (but not fast enough to kill the engine). In reverse, the shuddering is quite bad, esp. if I'm trying to reverse up an incline.

Apart from this, I have also noticed the following:
1. Shuddering is more prominent when the electrical system is loaded (headlights on, AC blower on full speed(compressor off), radiator fan running).
- Generator & battery appears to be ok because I read 14Volts with my multimeter across the batt. terminals with the engine idling; Batt. puts out just over 12V with the engine off.
- The engine also shudders for a second if a transient heavy load is suddenly put on the electrical system. Ex. when the radiator fans starts or when the headlights (90/100 W) are swiched on.

2. My fuel pump has been emitting a faint whistling sound for the past 1 year now, I had not noticed it before and I have not heard a similar sound from other MPFI Esteems. When I switch on my hazzard lights, the pitch of the sound falls when the lights are glowing, then rises again when the lights are out.

3. When the car is first started after being parked for more than 2 - 3 days, white smoke (maybe CO) is emitted in the first 5 seconds of the engine running. (Coolant & oil levels are not dropping abnormally, so it can't be coolant / oil leaking into the cylinders)

4. Airfilter & Oil Filter was changed during my last oil change about 5000km back, spark plugs were last changed about 10,000Km back, this time they were just cleaned and their gaps were adjusted. Injectors were last serviced about 30,000 Km back.

5. I have been told by other Esteem owners & mechanics that my clutch pedal is slightly hard, but I dont find it a problem. It bites evenly and doesn't feel like it is slipping, even with hard acceleration.

I suspect that the problem could be caused by a combination of factors:
1. Fuel pump is weak / wiring to FP is old and dropping too much voltage
2. Injectors partially clogged
3. Clutch nearing the end of its life

I'm planning send the car to a MASS to get the problem looked at, but esp. since the parts I suspect are going to cost a bomb, I want to be sure of changing only what is necessary.

Guys / gals, let me know if anybody else has faced a similar problem and how it was solved.

Thanx,

- T u r b o C -
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Old 9th March 2006, 09:15   #2
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did u check the engine mountings ???????
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Old 9th March 2006, 09:34   #3
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Hi,

From what you describe it sounds like an electrical problem. There is some sort of current draw in your car which may cause some of the sensors to send wrong inputs to the ECM thereby causing the shuddering. I would recommend you check the following.

1> Plug wires - check for leaks
2> Alternator charging
3> Engine RPM at the time of shuddering
4> O2 Sensor

It would be best you take it to a MASS and ask them to perform a HI Scan on your car. That should be able to point out to some fault greatly and is the fastest way to detect faults. They should ideally not charge you for the scan.It should not take more than 3-4 mins to scan the car.

A new Fuel pump assembly costs approx 9k and a motor approx 4k from Maruti. Clutch/Pressure/Brg approx 2500-3000k. Injector cleaning 600-800.

Hope I have been of some help.
Keep us posted on the progress.

Viper
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Old 9th March 2006, 09:45   #4
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Its highly likely that the culprit is the clutch...
My car's clutch is near its end...and i experience similar judders.

Drifter
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Old 9th March 2006, 09:47   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drifter
Its highly likely that the culprit is the clutch...
My car's clutch is near its end...and i experience similar judders.

Drifter
Hi Drifter,

If you read carefully he experiences this problem at idle where the clutch has no role.

Viper
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Old 9th March 2006, 14:38   #6
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Well, looks like 2 can share the same probs, just dropeed in my esteem thats done 78000 km for a clutch change the problems that you described are similar. Only suggestion that you change the entire clutch assembly for it to last.
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Old 9th March 2006, 14:41   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper
Hi Drifter,

If you read carefully he experiences this problem at idle where the clutch has no role.

Viper
Hey Viper the idle judders could be because of low idling, for that the air filter will have to be checked and replaced if necessary.

As for the judders when he starts driving the only cause is the clutch.
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Old 9th March 2006, 14:59   #8
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Yeah, even i had a hunch on the clutch.
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Old 9th March 2006, 15:06   #9
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Thanks for all the inputs guys... keep it coming !

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedsatya
did u check the engine mountings ???????
Engine mountings could contribute to transmitting the vibration to the body but the vibrations should not be happening in the first place. Still, I dont think the engine mountings are a problem because the vibration is not constant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper
1> Plug wires - check for leaks
Plug wires look fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper
Quote:
Originally Posted by viper
2> Alternator charging
Already checked this: Alternator is putting out a healthy 14Volts even at idle; battery is fully charged (12.7 Volts with engine off), so I guess the alternator is fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper
3> Engine RPM at the time of shuddering
It happens below 1000 rpm on no load (neutral) but also happens at 1500+ RPM in reverse... gets worse if reversing up an incline. RPM does not fall during the shuddering, if that's what you were suspecting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper
4> O2 Sensor
I guess I will have to take a reading with the sensor in place while the engine is warm and running... Should I measure the voltage across its terminals with it connected or should I disconnect it and measure resistance ? It is right on the HOT exhaust headers... is there an easier way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper
It would be best you take it to a MASS and ask them to perform a HI Scan on your car. That should be able to point out to some fault greatly and is the fastest way to detect faults. They should ideally not charge you for the scan.It should not take more than 3-4 mins to scan the car.

The "Engine" light is not glowing with the engine running, (but it does glow in "check" mode), so I figure that the ECU doesn't know that something is amiss... I doubt scanning it will reveal the problem, still, it wouldn't hurt to try (esp. if they are willing to do it for free )

I suspect that the engine is running lean & at low RPM, when the injector pulses are short, possible low pressure (weak FP) along with partially clogged injectors is making the mix even leaner. Increasing the electrical loads makes the engine work harder on the lean mix and also the voltage drop causes the weak FP lower the pressure still further.

Can the Fuel Pump be taken apart and serviced? I have seen it while some work was beind done on my fuel tank and it looked like it was a sealed unit.

At 9k a piece, I dont want to change the FP if it is not at fault ! I dont think the clutch is the problem becuase the shuddering happens even while idling in neutral. I'm hoping that injector cleaning will do the trick.

Still, keep me posted on any other ideas anybody has...

- T u r b o C -
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Old 9th March 2006, 15:12   #10
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I have a very strong hunch that you have a clutch problem. Its worn out and will probably need a complete assembly change.
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Old 9th March 2006, 15:15   #11
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Running really really lean is also a suspect!!

Only 2 reasons for running lean:

1) inadequate air intake -MAF sensor,O2 sensor or clogged air filter.

2) inadequate fuel injection- check if fuel filter is clogged with muck(happens sometimes),

Last edited by nitrous : 9th March 2006 at 15:17.
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Old 9th March 2006, 15:42   #12
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You might need to check your stepper motor. It is fixed on the bottom of the tjrottle body and increses idle when engine is cold and also when there is electrical load or when power steering is operated. Malfunction of the stepper motor should have come up on the scan.
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Old 12th March 2006, 23:58   #13
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Guys,

I will be dropping my car off at a nearby MASS most probably on Tuesday morn; will post my findings as soon as I know...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zappo
I have a very strong hunch that you have a clutch problem. Its worn out and will probably need a complete assembly change.
Maybe... but I dont think it is responsible for the vibration while idling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous
1) inadequate air intake -MAF sensor,O2 sensor or clogged air filter.
You mean you think it is taking in too little air ? Never thought of this... How do I confirm it?

- MAF / O2 Sensor malfunction: Could be... scan should show it
- Clogged air filter: Don't think so... it's new ! (< 5k km)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous
2) inadequate fuel injection- check if fuel filter is clogged with muck(happens sometimes),
Yep, that's what I'm thinking too, but I suspect clogged injectors. Didn't strike me about the clogged fuel filter... can't remember the last time it was changed... maybe as long as 30k + ago ! Will definately get it replaced this time around. Thanx

Quote:
Originally Posted by sideways
You might need to check your stepper motor. It is fixed on the bottom of the tjrottle body and increses idle when engine is cold and also when there is electrical load or when power steering is operated. Malfunction of the stepper motor should have come up on the scan.
Not sure if the E2 Esteem has this. I read somewhere (on t-bhp) that Marutis just run slightly rich while warming up and I assumed that the Esteem did the same when it was expecting heavier loads on the engine. Will try to confirm this from my car.

In anycase, the problem doesn't seem idle speed related, because, even if I rev up the car (mildly) via the accelerator, the vibration is still there.

- T u r b o C -
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Old 31st August 2011, 23:45   #14
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Default Re: Problem: MPFI Esteem Engine Shudder

I am facing similar problems, with my car. 2004 Esteem MPFI.

The MASS person is saying the problem is with the Engine as there is excess engine oil consumption and some sound from the engine.

Recently done 600 kms and got an average of 14 Kmpl with AC.

I have got the following changed - AC Cooling Coil and Magnetic Clutch coil and rear wheel bearing.

I presume to have been fooled recently after the AC stopped working after driving through water logged roads of Kolkata,when the AC stopped working and had to pay rs 5500/- for Piston change and Refilling of AC gas.

Within two months again the Ac stopped working and found oil leakage from the compressor and leakage from the cooling coil. The condition of the cooling coil clearly indicated it was not serviced last time.It was done at the same MASS where I had again gone.

Please guide on the following
1) What should be the cost of Piston Change
2)Was it the responsibility of the MASS to service the full AC when they were changing the PISTON
3)Can oil leakage from the compressor be a reason of faulty repair work two months back.Can the gas sustain two months.
4) What should be the idea cost of Piston change
and lastly
5)What should I do with the engine and the cost of reairing or replacing the same.

My experience suggests MASS have lost the professionalism it used to have.

Please guide if there is any good garage or mechanic in Kolkata who specializes in Esteem.

My last option is to change my performer ,but it will be really a sad day for me.
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Old 1st September 2011, 11:17   #15
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Default Re: Problem: MPFI Esteem Engine Shudder

If it is judder due to engine mounts the symptoms would be
. judder at idling
. judder when there is sudden load change

If it is due to clutch then
. judder would start when ever the clutch is engaged/disengaged
. all the time if the clutch is slipping permanently. In that case the FE will drop, and so will acceleration.

If due to engine/fuel pump
. low FE
. bad acceleration

From what I can make out of your symptoms, it is an engine/gearbox mount problem. You can do the following
. Go to a good mechanic and change the engine mounts. At the same time check the clutch and replace it.
. If the clutch springs are weak change the whole assembly.
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