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Old 28th May 2013, 23:08   #1786
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

HCP,
Thanks for the data. It definitely looks like I have a problem.

SDP,
My interpretation of the graph is same as yours and that is why I think turbo isn't working.

I delayed my trip by a few hours so that the service center can take a look before my long drive monday morning. My RM wasn't picking up the phone and other RMs present there were quite unresponsive. They showed least interest and kept asking me to wait. Meanwhile I saw the driver who did the test drive and I told him his drive seems to have conked off the turbo. He and another driver asked a mechanic to check the vacuum oscillator (not sure what this is) under the air filter. No problem was found. Next the exhaust pipe to turbo was removed and the driver asked the mechanic to start the engine. There was a puff of soot from the turbo and the driver declared turbo was working. I have no idea what this test was. Meanwhile I learn from the mechanic and the drivers that my RM is on leave. They assured me it was fine to go ahead with the long drive. I have covered 300km since then and still no errors have shown up. Sometimes I feel there is some boost but not as strong as it used to be. I haven't had a chance to do any more OBD logging after that. Will try during my return tomorrow.

When the mechanic could not find anything wrong, I asked him to check another vehicle for the turbo whine above 1500rpm. Surprisingly an XUV with about 22k didn't have the sound either. Will update further tomorrow.
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Old 29th May 2013, 00:10   #1787
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlg View Post
HCP,
Thanks for the data. It definitely looks like I have a problem.

SDP,
My interpretation of the graph is same as yours and that is why I think turbo isn't working.

I delayed my trip by a few hours so that the service center can take a look before my long drive monday morning. My RM wasn't picking up the phone and other RMs present there were quite unresponsive. They showed least interest and kept asking me to wait. Meanwhile I saw the driver who did the test drive and I told him his drive seems to have conked off the turbo. He and another driver asked a mechanic to check the vacuum oscillator (not sure what this is) under the air filter. No problem was found. Next the exhaust pipe to turbo was removed and the driver asked the mechanic to start the engine. There was a puff of soot from the turbo and the driver declared turbo was working. I have no idea what this test was. Meanwhile I learn from the mechanic and the drivers that my RM is on leave. They assured me it was fine to go ahead with the long drive. I have covered 300km since then and still no errors have shown up. Sometimes I feel there is some boost but not as strong as it used to be. I haven't had a chance to do any more OBD logging after that. Will try during my return tomorrow.

When the mechanic could not find anything wrong, I asked him to check another vehicle for the turbo whine above 1500rpm. Surprisingly an XUV with about 22k didn't have the sound either. Will update further tomorrow.
From the data that you posted, it is evident that your turbo is spinning. Otherwise it cannot create 0.06 bar pressure. But the problem is with the boost pressure. Just by looking at the turbine of the turbo those folks will not be able to identify the problem. You may ask them to connect the OBD scanner and laptop and show you the boost pressure.

As you said from day one, in my car I never heard of any turbo whine. My assumption was that the turbo in XUV is way too silent. But the loaner vehicle that I am using the turbo whining is very evident as in my Optra magnum and the power delivery is just amazing. I am not going to send this vehicle back until they figure out why the power is less in my vehicle. My RM started searing the power delivery difference is due to ESP function in W8. I asked him for Mahindra documentation for the same that points to W8 will be sedate in acceleration due to ESP. He is yet to get back. Meanwhile I shown him the gear shift quality difference between my car and the W6 they provided. For this as well his reply was W8 vs W6. That as well I am asking for Mahindra documentation. I told him that I will only accept the vehicle back if the gear shift quality is same as the loaner vehicle or a relevant documentation in writing.

I am going to take the ODB scanner along with me and check the data during the trial run. Will report the findings after that.

Thanks
HCP
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Old 29th May 2013, 12:13   #1788
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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Originally Posted by Heavy Horse View Post
Some of you may be aware that Debuda is on an expedition to Ladakh from Jamshedpur. This morning I received a call from him from Kargil. His XUV was refusing to start despite the crank. Fuel tank was full and the battery was fine. Very soon the engine malfunction alert came on, and shortly thereafter several other alerts relating to ABS and other stuff. My details are a bit sketchy but I'm sure Debuda will update everybody in his inimitable style thru' his technical report over the next week to ten days.

He filed a complaint with M&M and they said that the nearest XUV dealer was at Srinagar 300 kms away and they were sending a flatbed to tow it back. Debuda was convinced that mechanically the car was fine and that the on board computer was shutting down the engine etc, and he was not at all keen for the car to be towed back since that would upset all his plans.

From what I can gather, M&M response was pretty good and they had a dealer in Kargil that basically handles Scorpios, Boleros etc. Those guys were the first responders, and they identified the problem as moisture in the fuse box. Apparently while crossing Zozila pass yesterday, they had to wade through some watery stretches and that caused the problem.

From what I gather after the fuses were cleaned out, the car was just fine. I think Debuda drove off as per his itinerary around mid day.

Just to share this "FIR" with everybody as this is a pretty new experience. You'll hear loads more from Debuda in a few days replete with pictures.
Thanks, Heavy Horse. Here's a quick update on my expedition :
  1. I started from Jamshedpur on 07 May and drove to Delhi, Srinagar, Uri, Srinagar, Kargil, Leh, Pangong Tso, Leh, Khardung La, Diskit, Hunder (Nubra Valley), Leh, Srinagar, Gulmarg, Pahalgam, Delhi so far. I'll leave Delhi tomorrow and expect to reach Jamshedpur on 31 May.
  2. I got a real scare when I started from Kargil (for Leh) on the morning of 17 May and after 500m or so the car stopped and refused to restart. 'Check Engine' lamp came on and there were also some strange symptoms. I called M&M Roadside Assistance and also requested Heavy Horse to escalate the matter as there were 5 (including 2 young ladies) of us in the XUV and the entire Ladakh trip was at stake. M&M were planning to send a flat bed truck from Srinagar and carry the XUV to a Service Center at Srinagar. This was going to be a major exercise as Zozi La pass (very bad and treacherous roads) needed to be crossed between Srinagar and Kargil. Also, at least 2-3 days would have been lost. I was convinced that the problem was with electronics only and could be rectified in-situ. After many phone calls I finally convinced the Service Manager in charge of J&K to render in-situ assistance and not take the XUV to Srinagar. My car was towed to a M&M workshop (Boleros, Scorpios) just 2 KM from where I was stranded. Some moisture was found inside the fuse-box inside the engine compartment. After drying it with compressed air everything became normal and the engine started.
  3. Apparently, the problem occurred because I got the XUV washed at Kargil the previous evening. Some water was splashed inside the engine compartment during the washing.
  4. Overall, the support and response received from M&M during this ordeal was quite positive. Because the Kargil workshop was not equipped to service XUVs, M&M decided to follow their standard operating procedure of towing the car to the nearest XUV workshop (Srinagar). It took a lot of effort on my part to persuade them to deviate from their SOP and render in-situ assistance. This turned out to be the best decision (both for M&M and me) as the root cause of the electronic fault was a relatively minor one.
  5. Subsequently, I completed the Ladakh trip without any significant problems. While crossing a deep water-filled crater near Zozi La the engine bottom guard (plastic) was damaged (probably by a submerged / unseen boulder) and a part of the guard was hanging and touching the ground. I jacked up the car front, got under the car and cut off the hanging plastic guard with a mini hacksaw. Subsequently, after many hundred KM of driving in Ladakh, I noticed that the remaining part of the bottom guard had come loose (see picture) but not touching the ground. I left it as it is and intend replacing the plastic bottom guard when I reach Jamshedpur. I'm also toying with the idea of getting a sheet metal guard fabricated which might serve a much more useful purpose.
  6. After returning home I shall post a picture-travelogue and also a more detailed tech report.


Present state of my engine bottom guard.
XUV 500 niggles and their solutions-xuv.jpg
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Old 29th May 2013, 13:38   #1789
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

Quote:
Originally Posted by debuda View Post
...
  1. I got a real scare when I started from Kargil (for Leh) on the morning of 17 May and after 500m or so the car stopped and refused to restart. 'Check Engine' lamp came on and there were also some strange symptoms. .... My car was towed to a M&M workshop (Boleros, Scorpios) just 2 KM from where I was stranded. Some moisture was found inside the fuse-box inside the engine compartment. After drying it with compressed air everything became normal and the engine started.
  2. Apparently, the problem occurred because I got the XUV washed at Kargil the previous evening. Some water was splashed inside the engine compartment during the washing.
Welcome back Sir! Good to hear that the moisture issue was beacuse of the washing and not because of normal water splash from a road puddle.


Quote:
  1. ....While crossing a deep water-filled crater near Zozi La the engine bottom guard (plastic) was damaged (probably by a submerged / unseen boulder) and a part of the guard was hanging and touching the ground. I jacked up the car front, got under the car and cut off the hanging plastic guard with a mini hacksaw. Subsequently, after many hundred KM of driving in Ladakh, I noticed that the remaining part of the bottom guard had come loose (see picture) but not touching the ground. I left it as it is and intend replacing the plastic bottom guard when I reach Jamshedpur. I'm also toying with the idea of getting a sheet metal guard fabricated which might serve a much more useful purpose.
...
What sort of thickness you have in mind for the custom-made guard?
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Old 29th May 2013, 14:52   #1790
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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Originally Posted by HotChillyPepper View Post
As you said from day one, in my car I never heard of any turbo whine. My assumption was that the turbo in XUV is way too silent. But the loaner vehicle that I am using the turbo whining is very evident as in my Optra magnum and the power delivery is just amazing. I am not going to send this vehicle back until they figure out why the power is less in my vehicle. My RM started searing the power delivery difference is due to ESP function in W8. I asked him for Mahindra documentation for the same that points to W8 will be sedate in acceleration due to ESP. He is yet to get back. Meanwhile I shown him the gear shift quality difference between my car and the W6 they provided. For this as well his reply was W8 vs W6. That as well I am asking for Mahindra documentation.

I am going to take the ODB scanner along with me and check the data during the trial run. Will report the findings after that.
Went to ASC to check my vehicle today. They kept telling power delivery in my vehicle just fine. I have connected the ODB scanner in front of them and took the chief technician for a trial run. As expected my car is getting 14.6 psi boost only. All test was carried out by switching off the ESP so they cannot give me that funta.

Now seeing real data they started acting on it. Connected M&M provided Software through official ODB connector to my car and the results were same as my measurement through Torque Pro. Finally they took out another XUV W8 model and did the same test. The boost was touching 25+ psi in their own tool and the turbo whining sound was very audible. Finally they have no option than admitting in my car there is either a faulty turbo or a leak in the plumping. Worst of it is the main technicians itself are completely clueless on what should be the maximum boost pressure in XUV. They had to compare the results with another car to come to a conclusion. I felt empathy for them; what kind of training would they be received to repair this car.

thanks
HCP
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Old 29th May 2013, 15:51   #1791
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Hi.
Isn't the car supposed to go into limp/safe mode if there's such a problem with the turbo? (at least in rlg's case)
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Old 29th May 2013, 18:33   #1792
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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Hi.
Isn't the car supposed to go into limp/safe mode if there's such a problem with the turbo? (at least in rlg's case)
That assumes that the dignostic module itself is working!

Jokes apart, a turbo failure would mean reduced power output and limited drivability, which is exactly what the limp-mode gives albeit in a different fashion.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 24th September 2013 at 14:25.
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Old 29th May 2013, 18:50   #1793
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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Originally Posted by SDP View Post
What sort of thickness you have in mind for the custom-made guard?
I haven't really made up my mind regarding fabrication of the metallic engine bottom guard. Inputs from anyone who have actually got such guards made would be very useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotChillyPepper View Post
I have connected the ODB scanner in front of them and took the chief technician for a trial run. As expected my car is getting 14.6 psi boost only.
I am interested in purchasing an OBD-II (with bluetooth) device for my XUV which I can use in conjunction with my Android smartphone. Would like to know about reliable brands and sources.
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Old 30th May 2013, 01:12   #1794
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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Originally Posted by debuda View Post
I am interested in purchasing an OBD-II (with bluetooth) device for my XUV which I can use in conjunction with my Android smartphone. Would like to know about reliable brands and sources.
Here is a link to ebay site who sells the exact same item that I am using: http://www.ebay.in/itm/ELM327-OBD-OB...ht_2227wt_1139

Though while searching on ebay, I found much cheaper options now and they have mentioned about using it with Torque software in description. So they should work well too: http://www.ebay.in/itm/Android-Torqu...ht_3950wt_1139

Thanks
HCP

Last edited by HotChillyPepper : 30th May 2013 at 01:13.
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Old 30th May 2013, 11:58   #1795
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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Originally Posted by Gerardfdz View Post
Has the new version come out? Mahindra customers were to get it end April along with a blue tooth/ software update.
You will need to get it upgraded at any Mahindra service station.
Not sure about this. My XUV is scheduled for its 20K servicing in the coming weeks. Will get this checked then. Anyways with voice based navigation coming to Google Maps and the SatGuide app loaded on my iPhone, i am fine even if I don't get the upgrade.
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Old 30th May 2013, 17:24   #1796
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

After the opening and refixing intercooler and air filter pipes at the service center, the turbo got a little bit of life.

I could not get a good log during the trip as torque kept freezing. Torque did not report any adapter errors though. Could be a problem with the OBD connector, mine is a old USB unit. Now I'm wondering if the steady value I got earlier was an error or actual reading. I was in a hurry planning for the trip and it is possible I didn't notice the freeze. The RPM also freezes when this happens, which was not the case in the old log. So it might have been correct data and something really changed after the service center visit. Anyway today I got a reliable connection long enough to make a log. I was parked, not on the road for this log.

Turbo boost is now varying with RPM in the log. I could also feel the same during the drive. After the service center visit, I could feel the turbo above 2200 or so RPM and could hear the whine too. But it still felt weaker than the power I had earlier.

Noticed an interesting fact during the test. The boost increases with RPM to about 1350RPM and then the pressure drops suddenly. It increases again with further increase in RPM. The second log shows this behaviour repeatedly. Is this loss of pressure the reason I don't get the power at 1500 ? Problem with waste gate ?

The new logs are with pressure in PSI units.

Torque also shows a powertrain fault code now. The infontainment unit still does not show any error codes.

HCP, which service center do you use ? Please post the RPM vs Turbo boost graph when you get a chance. You could just send me the csv log if you are hard pressed for time. I think the pressure I get is low and would like to compare with the values you have for similar RPMs.
Attached Thumbnails
XUV 500 niggles and their solutions-chart_1.png  

XUV 500 niggles and their solutions-chart_2.png  

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Old 30th May 2013, 21:50   #1797
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlg View Post
After the opening and refixing intercooler and air filter pipes at the service center, the turbo got a little bit of life.

Turbo boost is now varying with RPM in the log. I could also feel the same during the drive. After the service center visit, I could feel the turbo above 2200 or so RPM and could hear the whine too. But it still felt weaker than the power I had earlier.

Noticed an interesting fact during the test. The boost increases with RPM to about 1350RPM and then the pressure drops suddenly. It increases again with further increase in RPM. The second log shows this behaviour repeatedly. Is this loss of pressure the reason I don't get the power at 1500 ? Problem with waste gate ?

Torque also shows a powertrain fault code now. The infontainment unit still does not show any error codes.

HCP, which service center do you use ? Please post the RPM vs Turbo boost graph when you get a chance. You could just send me the csv log if you are hard pressed for time. I think the pressure I get is low and would like to compare with the values you have for similar RPMs.
rlg, I don't doubt your initial readings since the RPM was varying. The data we get from ECU is digital data from individual sensors and there is no analog transfer between OBD port and the adapter. So if some of the sensor values coming correct, all of them expect to reach the app. So I believe the service visit indeed not a waste.

But the your boost is way too low. At 3K RPM you should be getting approximately 18 - 20 psi but I see only 6 psi.
I was a bit confused about the logging functionality in Torque. Today I think I found out how to log the data through out the trip. Will log the data fresh from the loaner car and send it over.

Can you post the error code you are seeing?


thanks
HCP.
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Old 31st May 2013, 01:41   #1798
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

Here is the data from last trial run. Just to summarize I have seen a boost of 21.18 psi. One interesting factor form the data is, the peak boost is not produced at highest RPM value. So boost should be dependent on some more parameters. May be throttle position?
Highest torque (on wheels) recorded: 330 NM
Higest BHP ( on wheels) recorded: 130 BHP


thanks
HCP
Attached Files
File Type: xlsx trackLog_excel.xlsx (281.1 KB, 267 views)
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Old 31st May 2013, 13:30   #1799
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

Thanks HCP. I created the graph from your data. The difference is quite obvious.

The fault code I got was "P1641 - Powertrain"
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Old 1st June 2013, 11:34   #1800
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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Thanks HCP. I created the graph from your data. The difference is quite obvious.

The fault code I got was "P1641 - Powertrain"
Thanks rlg. The fault code is manufacturer controlled. So we need to get info from M&M to figure out what exactly it means. I wish Indian manufactures release service manual as well like in many other countries.

You may want to take the reading while car is in motion. The new ECUs are smart enough to detect car in stationary condition when you throttle it and will limit the turbo boost. I have seen in XUV boost will be limited to below 10 psi.

Update from my car is, ASC "suspect" turbo to be faulty, ordered new turbo and waiting for it. But my gut feeling is that it is a side effect of some other failure, mostly fuel pump. New turbo will take a weeks time to arrive.

Last edited by HotChillyPepper : 1st June 2013 at 11:44.
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