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Old 4th July 2013, 17:40   #1921
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

Hi Gurus,

Just clocked in 7K in the last three months of driving the beast with negligible set of problems.
Suspension : No issues
Brakes : No Issues and good bite.
AC Functions : Very good
Nav : Brilliant
HU Functions : Flawless.

All in all, a very good experience so far. Just did first servicing a couple of weeks back on a little over 5K levels.
Got some queries which I'm unable to find in the posts so far. So trying to fit myself in for knowing whether these are issues or just regular behavior of the beast.

1> Have noticed a little 'clug' in the gears when i depress the accelerator padel again without use of clutch while on stead drive in 6th. Is it present for all ? I have never experienced it in my Octi anytime during my 150K run. So just curies if this is just the ratio aspect of XUVs gear box.
2> Quiet a good loss of steer controls under hard acceleration. If you go full pedal press, you can literally feel vehical steering on its own.
3> If I go over the low hight group of speed breakers (the kind you find on highway road meeting points), again the vehical goes sideways. If your speed is too fast, you almost end up loosing steer control.

Never experienced these issues earlier and hence checking here. Would appreciate any sort of feedback to check out my approach to this vehical too. Thanks in advance.
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Old 4th July 2013, 18:44   #1922
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogibear007 View Post
...
1> Have noticed a little 'clug' in the gears when i depress the accelerator padel again without use of clutch while on stead drive in 6th. Is it present for all ? I have never experienced it in my Octi anytime during my 150K run. So just curies if this is just the ratio aspect of XUVs gear box.
2> Quiet a good loss of steer controls under hard acceleration. If you go full pedal press, you can literally feel vehical steering on its own.
3> If I go over the low hight group of speed breakers (the kind you find on highway road meeting points), again the vehical goes sideways. If your speed is too fast, you almost end up loosing steer control.

Never experienced these issues earlier and hence checking here. Would appreciate any sort of feedback to check out my approach to this vehical too. Thanks in advance.
For #2 and #3, most likely the cause is torque-steer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_steering)
Its normal.

Sorry, no idea about #1.
I see that you are based in Mumbai. Let's meet up. Would love to compare vehicles.


PS: Please watch out for spelling mistakes.

Last edited by SDP : 4th July 2013 at 19:02.
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Old 4th July 2013, 18:55   #1923
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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Originally Posted by SDP View Post
HHC-HDC malfunctions (without any warning/indicator on the dashboard) have not been reported. At least not to my knowledge. So please do report these to the service-center.

About OBD2 and turbo, HotChillyPepper is the best person who can help.

Post diagnosis by the service center, please do let us know what caused this.
I tried the HHC [which is always on] on a medium level incline today. It worked. Tried it quite a few times and it did not cause any problem.

Drove to work, then while coming up the incline towards the parking lot, I slowed down, slotted into 1st gear and with full clutch, released the brakes. HHC did not kick in. Very weird behavior. Switched off the vehicle, applied handbrakes, waited for a minute. Switched on with full clutch in 1st gear, released handbrakes/brakes and viola HHC kicks in.

I am confused and scared by the intermittent change in behavior from the actual expected behavior. With the fear of HHC not kicking in, I have stopped releasing full brakes on slopes while stuck in traffic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldie_malhotra View Post
I noted while crawling on flyovers - you need to first apply the brakes firmly to come to a stop. Then you need to release the brake with the clutch pressed completely.
If you come to a stop without the brakes - at very slow speeds, then the HHC does not kick in.
Exactly. I have seen this behavior as well. The manual does not however describe the intended situations in which HHC kicks in and does not kick in.
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Old 4th July 2013, 21:18   #1924
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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Originally Posted by Xryder View Post
Never cleaned the EngineBay by myself. Have always got it done at the service center or a 3M outlet. Infact, the EngineBay was never opened for the time the issue was noticed after the wash nor during the rains.Was unable to find this issue reported earlier on this thread. Has anyone faced something like this ?
Yes Debuda faced a similar issue. Water had entered his fuse box in Kargil following a wash at a service station. He has reported this issue on his thread. Suggest you discuss this issue with him.
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Old 5th July 2013, 21:01   #1925
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
For #2 and #3, most likely the cause is torque-steer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_steering)
Its normal.

Sorry, no idea about #1.
I see that you are based in Mumbai. Let's meet up. Would love to compare vehicles.


PS: Please watch out for spelling mistakes.
Sorry for the spell-takes SDP.
I thought of the torque steer, but never faced this kind of loss of control in my earlier octi even when it was new and I used to rough it up in the Kasara ghat sections. That's what surprised me.
Also, on the group of low hight speed breakers that I talked about, I think that has to do something with the suspension design . My experience in Octy is, if you go over these kind of group of speadbreakers at intersections anywhere beyond 70/80, it used to be just a 'turrrrrrrr...' from the tires. Nothing else. There was hardly any loss of control in steer although a small amount of veering is always present. Probably I drove the XUV over these things at below the 'run over' speed. Will definitely check .
The first issue was related to the slight 'tak' sort of push that you can feel on the geer lever when you engage the accelerator. I have a habit of letting the vehical run for around 15-20 KMs with steady accelerator and then run it for a couple of KMs on idle without depressing the clutch. My concept in doing this is to let the engine breath normaly intermittantly while on steady high speed highway drives. When I do this in XUV, you can distinctly feel the 'Tak' on the gear lever when you press the accelerator again even if you are unable to hear the sound. The sound is also there. This happens only in sixth gear. I tried this on my morning run to office on estern express way, same results. I never felt this in 5th gear. I never experienced this in my earlier cars except in my Indica V2 more than a decade back. Hence checking if this is with my vehical only or if its the norm due to gear mesh gap/tolarence of sixth gear in XUV.
And yes, I would love to meet up once I'm back in Mumbai in a couple of weeks time. In fact, would surely take your help in getting into the Thane/Mumbai BHP group.
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Old 6th July 2013, 00:35   #1926
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogibear007 View Post
Sorry for the spell-takes SDP.
I thought of the torque steer, but never faced this kind of loss of control in my earlier octi even when it was new and I used to rough it up in the Kasara ghat sections. That's what surprised me.
Torque steer is prominent in vehicles like XUV with traverse mounted engines.
Does Octavia has a traverse mounted engine as well?

Quote:
Also, on the group of low hight speed breakers that I talked about, I think that has to do something with the suspension design . My experience in Octy is, if you go over these kind of group of speadbreakers at intersections anywhere beyond 70/80, it used to be just a 'turrrrrrrr...' from the tires. Nothing else. There was hardly any loss of control in steer although a small amount of veering is always present. Probably I drove the XUV over these things at below the 'run over' speed. Will definitely check .
Yes, there is a momentary loss-of-control feeling. I have experienced it a few times. The vehicle has a tendency to veer left at every possible opportuity. Going through potholes and over rumble-strips provides ample opportunity. With wheel-alignment and balancing done, it did seem reduced. Not completely sure though.

Quote:
The first issue was related to the slight 'tak' sort of push that you can feel on the geer lever when you engage the accelerator. I have a habit of letting the vehical run for around 15-20 KMs with steady accelerator and then run it for a couple of KMs on idle without depressing the clutch. My concept in doing this is to let the engine breath normaly intermittantly while on steady high speed highway drives. When I do this in XUV, you can distinctly feel the 'Tak' on the gear lever when you press the accelerator again even if you are unable to hear the sound. The sound is also there. This happens only in sixth gear. I tried this on my morning run to office on estern express way, same results. I never felt this in 5th gear. I never experienced this in my earlier cars except in my Indica V2 more than a decade back. Hence checking if this is with my vehical only or if its the norm due to gear mesh gap/tolarence of sixth gear in XUV.
Let's try it on a couple of more vehicles when you get a opportunity.
Do you suspect this to be a problem?

Quote:
And yes, I would love to meet up once I'm back in Mumbai in a couple of weeks time. In fact, would surely take your help in getting into the Thane/Mumbai BHP group.
Sure, done deal!

Last edited by SDP : 6th July 2013 at 00:36.
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Old 6th July 2013, 11:21   #1927
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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Originally Posted by Xryder View Post
Could be turbo-whistle. Since it is intermittent, not able to confirm. I have a OBD II device with Torque Pro. Will it show up any different values indicative of the Turbo whistle? If there is a Turbo issue, would it have to be replaced ?
You can check the turbo boost under real time data menu on torque pro. Or an alternative you can add a linear graph by choosing turbo boost as y axis. this is under plot graph sub menu. You should see a value around 20.5 to 21.5 psi. If the boost reported is around this figure you should be good with turbo.

You will have to actually drive the car at high throttle to see the boost. This is because ECM will detect if you are really moving and regulate the boost. Be careful and only try at very safe environment.

Thanks
Hcp
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Old 6th July 2013, 16:52   #1928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post

HHC will only work when you release the clutch with a forward gear selected, if you are reversing on an incline Reverse gear has to selected for HHC to work.
HHC works on both down slope or up slope with forward gear. I do this every day as my garage has ramp before the garage and I always take the car in on reverse and park. In the morning, with first gear on forward down slope, the HHC is put to use.

Anyway the point is, press the clutch fully, select the gear while still on the break, now remove right foot in slope, car holds right there for 3 seconds. After that it will roll side you have clutch pissed. So before 3 seconds if you are on fly over going up, slowly remove clutch with accelerator, you will not go and hit car behind. Similarly, when going down the fly over, if you follow this method, you will not hit the car ahead of you if you start ahead of the other car .

HHC is very important for me because of reverse every morning from home and fly over in 10kms from home towards office. This always work fine for me and you probably have to take time to master this if you are scared of rolling back on fly over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xryder View Post
Exactly. I have seen this behavior as well. The manual does not however describe the intended situations in which HHC kicks in and does not kick in.
The angle of incline is the key and there is no mention of this.

Last edited by krishnaraja : 6th July 2013 at 16:56.
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Old 6th July 2013, 22:16   #1929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotChillyPepper View Post

You can check the turbo boost under real time data menu on torque pro. Or an alternative you can add a linear graph by choosing turbo boost as y axis. this is under plot graph sub menu. You should see a value around 20.5 to 21.5 psi. If the boost reported is around this figure you should be good with turbo.

You will have to actually drive the car at high throttle to see the boost. This is because ECM will detect if you are really moving and regulate the boost. Be careful and only try at very safe environment.

Thanks
Hcp
Hi,

Got myself a OBD bluetooth device similar to what you have. Have a doubt regarding the boost pressure, is it specific to the gear we are in? That is if we are in 1st gear we will not be able to achieve the full boost. I was able to test to a max of 3rd gear only and i got a max of 17.5 psi boost, ran out of usable road after that and had to drop speed.

Got the device from DX.com for $11.5 and am using pcmscan from Palmer tech.
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Old 7th July 2013, 13:01   #1930
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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Originally Posted by anandtheleo View Post
Hi,

Got myself a OBD bluetooth device similar to what you have. Have a doubt regarding the boost pressure, is it specific to the gear we are in? That is if we are in 1st gear we will not be able to achieve the full boost. I was able to test to a max of 3rd gear only and i got a max of 17.5 psi boost, ran out of usable road after that and had to drop speed.

Got the device from DX.com for $11.5 and am using pcmscan from Palmer tech.
We observed that the boost depends on a lot of parameters while testing. For example in same gear and in same RPM two different occurrences shows entirely different boost value. Probably throttle position also been considered. But I haven't captured throttle position in logs. Will do that next.

I have attached a table contains peak turbo boost values observed (Sorted based on Boost pressure and copied the few top most rows)
Name:  table1.png
Views: 1309
Size:  30.0 KB

If you observe the second row data the peak boost is coming at 38 km/h and the rpm is 3057. So most likely it is has to be 1st or second gear. Hence the third parameter (Or even more ?) other than gear position need to be identified.

I m not aware of pcmscan software, but in torque pro there is a specific setting that take care of atmospheric pressure. By default it is 0 psi. As per Torque pro help contents this is due to brands like Mitsubishi reports boost pressure in negative values so they have to provide a -14.7, 0, +14.7 option to choose from. Probably before testing you need to make sure this kind a settings is available in your software and make sure it is set properly. If it is a licensed software you may want to take the help of after sales support team for assistance.

Another parameter that passively influence the boost pressure is the atmospheric pressure by itself. For example in Banglare current pressure is 13.7 which is a clear drop from standard sea level 14.7 psi. Found the turbo boost dropped as well in real world testing.

-HCP

Last edited by HotChillyPepper : 7th July 2013 at 13:07.
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Old 7th July 2013, 13:56   #1931
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotChillyPepper View Post
We observed that the boost depends on a lot of parameters while testing. For example in same gear and in same RPM two different occurrences shows entirely different boost value. Probably throttle position also been considered. But I haven't captured throttle position in logs. Will do that next.

I have attached a table contains peak turbo boost values observed (Sorted based on Boost pressure and copied the few top most rows)
Attachment 1106735

If you observe the second row data the peak boost is coming at 38 km/h and the rpm is 3057. So most likely it is has to be 1st or second gear. Hence the third parameter (Or even more ?) other than gear position need to be identified.

I m not aware of pcmscan software, but in torque pro there is a specific setting that take care of atmospheric pressure. By default it is 0 psi. As per Torque pro help contents this is due to brands like Mitsubishi reports boost pressure in negative values so they have to provide a -14.7, 0, +14.7 option to choose from. Probably before testing you need to make sure this kind a settings is available in your software and make sure it is set properly. If it is a licensed software you may want to take the help of after sales support team for assistance.

Another parameter that passively influence the boost pressure is the atmospheric pressure by itself. For example in Banglare current pressure is 13.7 which is a clear drop from standard sea level 14.7 psi. Found the turbo boost dropped as well in real world testing.

-HCP
Thanks HCP for the info. You are absolutely right about the atmospheric(Barometer) pressure being an influence on the boost. The OBD sensor was not able to read this value though from the vehicle. Since Chennai is at sea level I have assumed the Baro pressure to be 14.5 psi.

Had another run in the morning today and was able to acheive 19.8 psi boost once in the 4th gear (not able to log that data). I observed that in the lower gears the boost is capped to a certain extent in my vehicle, for e.g in 3rd gear the boost does not exceed 16 psi. Please find attached the readings from my vehicle. I did not exceed 3rd gear in this run.

Does this indicate a problem with my turbo, since I see that you are able to achieve higher boost even at lower gears.
Attached Thumbnails
XUV 500 niggles and their solutions-boostrpm.jpg  

XUV 500 niggles and their solutions-boostspeed.jpg  


Last edited by anandtheleo : 7th July 2013 at 14:10.
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Old 7th July 2013, 19:18   #1932
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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I observed that in the lower gears the boost is capped to a certain extent in my vehicle, for e.g in 3rd gear the boost does not exceed 16 psi.
Does this indicate a problem with my turbo, since I see that you are able to achieve higher boost even at lower gears.
From the readings I think your turbo is just fine. May be there is a minute leak in the plumping (most likely the connection from turbo to inter-cooler, which is notorious for coming out of the slot in XUVs). Also try a different filling station for your test after emptying the current running fuel.

If the ECM is purposefully limiting the boost at initial gears, there must be a reason for it, and it will be logging a corresponding DTC for the same. Can you run the diagnostics check in your scan tool and look out for any error code? Just idle the engine in neutral gear and collect the log. Once logged, these codes are persistent so even previous errors will be displayed. If there are no error codes I don't see any reason to worry.

-HCP

Last edited by HotChillyPepper : 7th July 2013 at 19:32.
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Old 7th July 2013, 20:03   #1933
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Originally Posted by HotChillyPepper View Post

From the readings I think your turbo is just fine. May be there is a minute leak in the plumping (most likely the connection from turbo to inter-cooler, which is notorious for coming out of the slot in XUVs). Also try a different filling station for your test after emptying the current running fuel.

If the ECM is purposefully limiting the boost at initial gears, there must be a reason for it, and it will be logging a corresponding DTC for the same. Can you run the diagnostics check in your scan tool and look out for any error code? Just idle the engine in neutral gear and collect the log. Once logged, these codes are persistent so even previous errors will be displayed. If there are no error codes I don't see any reason to worry.

-HCP
Thanks for the suggestions, will follow them. I checked for any error codes and there were none. I tried with two programs to be sure. Both are full versions, so i am sure there are no errors.

I am currently using IOC petrol, trying this from a new bunk different from my usual BP bunk i use. Maybe that is the reason. Will also try to check if there is any leak in the plumbing to the turbo. Thanks again for the pointers.
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Old 7th July 2013, 22:30   #1934
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotChillyPepper View Post
We observed that the boost depends on a lot of parameters while testing. For example in same gear and in same RPM two different occurrences shows entirely different boost value. Probably throttle position also been considered. But I haven't captured throttle position in logs. Will do that next.
I think the relation between RPM and boost will be consistent if the measurements are taken with slow changes in RPM. Turbo is slow to react and this is what causes the inconsistency when engine RPM changes fast. For example, I have noticed that if the engine is revved up and and I suddenly lift off the accelerator the pressure shoots up. As engine comes down to idle RPM suddenly, the amount of air it takes in also reduces suddenly. But turbo takes time to spool down and hence continues to develop high pressure for some time. With slow changes in RPM, turbo will get time to catch up.
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Old 7th July 2013, 23:01   #1935
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Default Re: XUV 500 niggles and their solutions

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I think the relation between RPM and boost will be consistent if the measurements are taken with slow changes in RPM. Turbo is slow to react and this is what causes the inconsistency when engine RPM changes fast. For example, I have noticed that if the engine is revved up and and I suddenly lift off the accelerator the pressure shoots up. As engine comes down to idle RPM suddenly, the amount of air it takes in also reduces suddenly. But turbo takes time to spool down and hence continues to develop high pressure for some time. With slow changes in RPM, turbo will get time to catch up.
Hmmm, what I observed today during a extended run in the city in moderate traffic is that, even when I held the RPM steady at 2500-3000 RPM in same gear, the boost started tapering off. I was under the impression the boost for a given RPM would stay constant. Am I wrong? I could not achieve more than 19 psi of boost even @ 4000 RPM.

Was dropping off my in-laws in their place tonight, given below are 2 graphs, the first one for the onward journey (with my in-laws, so RPM would be moderate ) in the second graph I was alone, that is when I observed the boost falling phenomenon.
Attached Thumbnails
XUV 500 niggles and their solutions-trip-1.jpg  

XUV 500 niggles and their solutions-trip-2.jpg  

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