Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 15th January 2012, 14:51   #76
Team-BHP Support
 
Rehaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 22,367
Thanked: 22,583 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Interesting info Neil.Nhujbal,

However....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal View Post
Don't know about other manufacturers but Mercedes in India won't sell the direct injection petrol engines with the name CGI. They won't have the CGI logo on trunk.
...this is not true. (Or is it a recent change?)



(There's a badged C200 CGI parked outside my window right now too)

Source Thread : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post1905165 (Mercedes Benz C 200 CGI driving footage)

cya
R
Rehaan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2012, 15:42   #77
BHPian
 
Neil.Bhujbal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 189
Thanked: 57 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Even the ones which we PDI have the badges but the next batch of cars won't
Atleast thats what we are told.

Last edited by Neil.Bhujbal : 15th January 2012 at 15:43.
Neil.Bhujbal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2012, 21:23   #78
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 3,506
Thanked: 2,071 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal View Post
It also proves TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines are useless in India.
(By useless I mean the stratified charge technology and not direct injection which is a part of it.)

Yesterday in workshop I had a chance to service a C-200 CGI. When I took it up on ramp I was surprised to find a normal exhaust rather than a complicated one with 2 catalytic converters, 4 sensors, bypass pipe etc which we had studied about.

So to cut it all in short these are just normal direct injection petrol engines running normal AF ratios.
They don't run on stratified mode (crazy lean mode) for which they are actually designed.

Reason : low octane fuel , they need atleast 95 Ron fuel.

Countries which have high octane fuel available have these engines running what they are designed for.

Don't know about other manufacturers but Mercedes in India won't sell the direct injection petrol engines with the name CGI. They won't have the CGI logo on trunk.

And all these pages we were discussing how are various manufacturers compensating for bad fuel when running on stratified mode LOL
Hi,
Some solid news at last.

Could you check out (from the parts catalogue) what catcon is being run in India. And how it matches with what is being sold abroad.

And could you check out from the OBD in what mode the engine is being run?

And time for some owners to drop a line to the manufacturers asking for a clarification.

Regards
Sutripta

PS. I still dont see the difficulty for a manufacturer to handle any octane.
Sutripta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2012, 09:23   #79
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Chennai
Posts: 818
Thanked: 1,647 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
Interesting info Neil.Nhujbal,

However....

...this is not true. (Or is it a recent change?)


R
It looks like the "Blue Efficiency" badge may also be the next to go. Elsewhere Mercedes C200 CGI with Blue Efficiency badging have the following features that help in increasing fuel efficiency (however small it may be) which are not available on the models sold in India:

1. A power steering pump that disengages when it is not needed (traffic lights etc).

2. Six speed manual gearbox with an automatic start-stop function - admittedly difficult to handle in India's continual stop start city traffic.

3. Low rolling resistance tyres.

4. Smaller mirrors to reduce cd.

Looks like the Blue Efficiency badge was given to get customers to think they were getting the equivalent of rival B's "Efficient Dynamics".
VeyronSuperSprt is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2012, 21:58   #80
BHPian
 
vinj14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Chennai
Posts: 305
Thanked: 259 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal View Post
Even the ones which we PDI have the badges but the next batch of cars won't
Atleast thats what we are told.
I think you are right. Spotted two facelifted c 200's without the cgi badge. Does that mean these cars arent turbocharged? Strange that mercedes decided to pull the plug on the CGI technology when the likes of skoda and audi continue to sell their TSI's and FSI's??
vinj14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2012, 22:29   #81
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Mpower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 10,432
Thanked: 1,682 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal View Post
Yesterday in workshop I had a chance to service a C-200 CGI. When I took it up on ramp I was surprised to find a normal exhaust rather than a complicated one with 2 catalytic converters, 4 sensors, bypass pipe etc which we had studied about.

So to cut it all in short these are just normal direct injection petrol engines running normal AF ratios.
They don't run on stratified mode (crazy lean mode) for which they are actually designed.

Reason : low octane fuel , they need atleast 95 Ron fuel.

Countries which have high octane fuel available have these engines running what they are designed for.

Don't know about other manufacturers but Mercedes in India won't sell the direct injection petrol engines with the name CGI. They won't have the CGI logo on trunk.

And all these pages we were discussing how are various manufacturers compensating for bad fuel when running on stratified mode LOL
IIRC there are 2 versons of the engine, one stoich and one stratified. Even the US version is similar to the Indian one ie it does not have the lean NoX trap. The reason is more to do with price rather than fuel availability.
Mpower is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2012, 01:36   #82
BHPian
 
Neil.Bhujbal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 189
Thanked: 57 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
IIRC there are 2 versons of the engine, one stoich and one stratified. Even the US version is similar to the Indian one ie it does not have the lean NoX trap. The reason is more to do with price rather than fuel availability.
Possible.. but then they shouldn't be putting CGI badges on the stoich version engines. (which they were in the beginning)
Neil.Bhujbal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2012, 06:48   #83
BHPian
 
autocrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 668
Thanked: 537 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Isn't MPFI (multi point fuel injection) engines which are used in ALL petrol cars now, direct injection engines? MPFI was essential to meet even BS2 norms IIRC.

4 injectors in my Indica Xeta, just like in CRDI.

I have always been under the impression that MPFI is direct injection. If its not, then, is the fuel injected into the inlet manifold just before the port?

I was under the impression that TSI is the next generation of MPFI.
autocrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2012, 16:24   #84
BHPian
 
Neil.Bhujbal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 189
Thanked: 57 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinj14 View Post
I think you are right. Spotted two facelifted c 200's without the cgi badge. Does that mean these cars arent turbocharged? Strange that mercedes decided to pull the plug on the CGI technology when the likes of skoda and audi continue to sell their TSI's and FSI's??
The 200's are turbocharged its just that they wont be having the CGI badges. About Skoda and Audi we dont know weather they really run on stratified mode (lean mode) or just have the badges stuck behind.
(But they all re direct injection petrol engines)

Quote:
Originally Posted by autocrat View Post
Isn't MPFI (multi point fuel injection) engines which are used in ALL petrol cars now, direct injection engines? MPFI was essential to meet even BS2 norms IIRC.

4 injectors in my Indica Xeta, just like in CRDI.

I have always been under the impression that MPFI is direct injection. If its not, then, is the fuel injected into the inlet manifold just before the port?

I was under the impression that TSI is the next generation of MPFI.
Yes you are right MPFI / FI engines means the fuel is injectetd into the track of intake manifold before the head ports.

Where as direct injection petrol engines have fuel being injected directly into the cylinder just like the diesels.

Last edited by Neil.Bhujbal : 8th March 2012 at 16:26.
Neil.Bhujbal is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2012, 17:42   #85
BHPian
 
autocrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 668
Thanked: 537 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal
Yes you are right MPFI / FI engines means the fuel is injectetd into the track of intake manifold before the head ports.

Where as direct injection petrol engines have fuel being injected directly into the cylinder just like the diesels.
Ok, so this is the reason for relatively lower system pressure in MPFI. The rail pressure in DI has to be much much higher (greater than pressure of compressed air in cylinder) to be injected.
autocrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2012, 23:43   #86
BHPian
 
Neil.Bhujbal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 189
Thanked: 57 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by autocrat View Post
Ok, so this is the reason for relatively lower system pressure in MPFI. The rail pressure in DI has to be much much higher (greater than pressure of compressed air in cylinder) to be injected.
The rail pressure in Mecedes DI engines is 50bar at idel & 120 bar at full throttel.

The pump in the tank (feed pump) generates a pressure of 4bar & gives input to a high pressure pump (3 cylinder pump driven by camshaft) which finally generates the further pressure & stores it in the fuel rail.

In diesels the high pressure pump generates around 1800bar pressure.
Neil.Bhujbal is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2012, 23:30   #87
BHPian
 
vinj14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Chennai
Posts: 305
Thanked: 259 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal View Post
The 200's are turbocharged its just that they wont be having the CGI badges. About Skoda and Audi we dont know weather they really run on stratified mode (lean mode) or just have the badges stuck behind.
(But they all re direct injection petrol engines)
.
So im closing in on the c200 avantgarde. If everything goes well i should have by next week. They gave me some explanation about removing the cgi technology to make the cars more fuel efficient. So without the cgi system can these cars run on normal 91 ron petrol??

Last edited by vinj14 : 8th June 2012 at 23:31.
vinj14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2012, 15:57   #88
BHPian
 
Neil.Bhujbal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 189
Thanked: 57 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinj14 View Post
So im closing in on the c200 avantgarde. If everything goes well i should have by next week. They gave me some explanation about removing the cgi technology to make the cars more fuel efficient. So without the cgi system can these cars run on normal 91 ron petrol??
Removing CGI tech to make cars more fuel efficient ?
You probably talked with a sales person.

Yes the cars can run on 91 without problem since CGI tech isnt really present. Its just a direct injection engine. Even if you use normal 89 octane in case of problem all the ECU values are reset & everything is taken care off during normal service of your vehicle.

Last edited by Neil.Bhujbal : 9th June 2012 at 16:00.
Neil.Bhujbal is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 11th June 2012, 11:04   #89
BHPian
 
vinj14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Chennai
Posts: 305
Thanked: 259 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal View Post
Removing CGI tech to make cars more fuel efficient ?
You probably talked with a sales person.

Yes the cars can run on 91 without problem since CGI tech isnt really present. Its just a direct injection engine. Even if you use normal 89 octane in case of problem all the ECU values are reset & everything is taken care off during normal service of your vehicle.
Thanks. Just a question though. So the CGI technology makes the car more fuel efficient and possibly mildly more powerful right? But speed 97 costs 15rs more than normal unleaded petrol for litre. So even if the car gives you 1.5 or 2 kms more per litre you actually would not be saving much. Does this logic make sense?

Or are there other advantages in the CGI technology?

Also, do you have any idea about the FE i can expect on this car?
vinj14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th June 2012, 13:29   #90
Team-BHP Support
 
Rehaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 22,367
Thanked: 22,583 Times
Default Re: TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinj14 View Post
....Or are there other advantages in the CGI technology?
Lately, the industry move is towards more ECO-friendly / Green vehicles. The CGI technology has a higher fuel-economy (i.e. uses less fuel per kilometer), therefore creating less pollution per kilometer.

cya
R
Rehaan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Problem with Skoda Superb 3.6 V6 FSI Petrol Turbo Head Technical Stuff 70 1st June 2016 05:01
Do Diesel engines generate more Torque than Petrol engines? ex670c Technical Stuff 224 25th November 2013 12:20
Mercedes E200 CGI (Petrol) versus E220 (Diesel) mudittandon Luxury, Imports & Niche 27 29th March 2013 03:28
Difference between old engines and new engines (petrol and diesel) srijit Technical Stuff 32 26th January 2011 10:20
Spied – 2010 Mercedes Benz C250 CGI on Indian soil. EDIT : Maybe not after all Sudan_NFS The Indian Car Scene 10 14th May 2010 20:47


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 11:37.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks