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View Poll Results: If you have faced a DSG mechatronics failure, please vote here(Multiple option poll):
My car is a Laura Petrol 1 5.88%
My car is a Laura Diesel 4 23.53%
My car is a Superb Petrol 5 29.41%
My car is a Superb Diesel 3 17.65%
It is a 6-speed DSG 6 35.29%
It is a 7-speed DSG 11 64.71%
The car is mostly chauffeur-driven 6 35.29%
The car is mostly self-driven 9 52.94%
Most of my drive is in crawling / stop-start traffic 6 35.29%
Most of my drive is in free-flowing traffic 4 23.53%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 21st December 2011, 20:21   #31
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
+1 to that.

Firstly, there are far harsher driving conditions. Boston, for instance, has a freezing cold winter, a hot summer, bumper to bumper traffic and pothole'd roads.
This reminded me of a video that I'd watched a few days ago. It was very interesting. It talks about Porsche's new 991 type 911 Carrera (which incidentally, comes with a similar DSG 'box, but PDK in Porsche speak) and how they put it through murderous treacherous conditions.

And one must remember, the PDK 'box is built to cope with massive power. We see it in the Turbo S that makes close to 550 horses.



Now I'm assuming Skoda puts their cars through testing under harsh conditions as well. We do see spy-shots of the cars in other countries, before we eventually see it here in India. But could it be, that Skoda are having issues with their DSG 'box due to faulty assembly? Because it seems like VW have it sorted, somewhat. Going by the lack of Passats and Jettas with similar issues. Or is it too soon to tell, perhaps? I'm not sure.
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Old 21st December 2011, 20:39   #32
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
But could it be, that Skoda are having issues with their DSG 'box due to faulty assembly? Because it seems like VW have it sorted, somewhat. Going by the lack of Passats and Jettas with similar issues. Or is it too soon to tell, perhaps? I'm not sure.
Demographics. Population/ age. Of the DSG equipped cars, not people.

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Sutripta
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Old 21st December 2011, 21:09   #33
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

6 months and 18,000 kms on the DSG so far, no issues, runs like a dream.
Some more info on the DSG failures in the west...

Quote:
Originally Posted by luky_13 View Post
VW had issues with the DSG on many models between 2007 and 2010, apart from Skoda other VW brands/models were effected - TT, R32, GTI, Jetta. In US this phenomenon was popularly known as 'Flash of Death'. A large number of premature DSG-Mechatronics failure cases were reported in America, Europe and India, with issues hovering around:
  • Sudden lack of motive power
  • Auto-shift to neutral in motion
  • Jerkiness while auto-shifting
In July 2009 the NHTSA opened an investigation into the case, Defect Investigations Results | Safercar.gov | NHTSA. VW announced a recall twice of more than 66,000 (13,500 + 53,000) DSG boxes in Aug, 2009. Although I don't have concrete information on hand but I believe post late 2010 this DSG issue was fixed. VW has now extended the warranty on DSG to 10 years or 100,000 miles (only in the States).

Following is the analysis summary...
VOLKSWAGEN DESCRIBED A POTENTIAL DEFECT IN THE WIRING HARNESSES OF THE DSG GEARBOX TEMPERATURE SENSORS USED IN APPROXIMATELY 16,000 MODEL YEAR (MY) 2009 AND 2010 VOLKSWAGEN (EOS, JETTA AND GTI) AND AUDI (A3 AND TT/TT ROADSTER) VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH DSG TRANSMISSIONS AND BUILT FROM SEPTEMBER 2008 THROUGH AUGUST 2009 (NHTSA RECALL NO. 09V-333, VOLKSWAGEN RECALL NO. 37E3/S7 AND AUDI RECALL NO 37E4/J7). VOLKSWAGEN PROVIDED THIS DESCRIPTION OF THE DEFECT, "THE WIRING HARNESS OF A TEMPERATURE SENSOR IN THE DSG MAY HAVE CONNECTOR WIRES THAT WERE INSUFFICIENTLY CRIMPED BY THE CONNECTOR SUPPLIER DURING A LIMITED PRODUCTION PERIOD. WITH INSUFFICIENTLY CRIMPED CONNECTOR WIRES, A TEMPERATURE SENSOR HAS THE POTENTIAL TO FALSELY DETECT A HIGH GEARBOX OIL TEMPERATURE, CAUSING THE TRANSMISSION TO ABRUPTLY SHIFT TO NEUTRAL.
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Old 21st December 2011, 21:56   #34
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

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Originally Posted by luky_13 View Post
Some more info on the DSG failures in the west...
Quote:
WITH INSUFFICIENTLY CRIMPED CONNECTOR WIRES, A TEMPERATURE SENSOR HAS THE POTENTIAL TO FALSELY DETECT A HIGH GEARBOX OIL TEMPERATURE, CAUSING THE TRANSMISSION TO ABRUPTLY SHIFT TO NEUTRAL.
And this is a lac+ to repair 'mechatronic' failure?! Please.
This is I suppose a 'cover our backsides' in case of a class action suit reply.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 21st December 2011, 22:36   #35
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

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Originally Posted by shashank.nk View Post
If i'm not wrong, the same DSG used in Skoda is also used in other VAG cars like the Jetta, Passat etc. right ?

Why is it that only the Skoda cars have reliability issues when it comes to DSG ? I've come across many threads highlighting 'DSG woes' and almost all the time its either the Laura or the Superb (petrol). I'v enot come across a DSG failure on say a Passat or a Jetta
Well, AFAIK, VW cars never had the 7-speed DSG in any of their petrol offerings in India. It's always the 6-speed DSG in Passat & Jetta diesels. Only Skoda have the 7-speed AT with the 1.8 TSI.
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Old 21st December 2011, 22:40   #36
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Somehow, I don't buy this explanation.
As you have mentioned, if this was really the problem, the DSG has more than enough intelligence to protect itself. And this type of problem should be caught in testing. Certainly not beyond ver 1.0.

The 'too good for Indians' is a leitmotif which I find alternately amusing and irritating. Am talking w.r.t Skoda, (well, their dealers) and on subjects other than the DSG.

Regards
Sutripta


Regards
Sutripta
Correct!
Cities like San Fransisco have traffic jamps on hills with 3 times the gradient as our steepest flyover.
I remember the distinctive burning smell coming from all auto cars in such a jam.
Many companies want to hide their shoddy engineering and incompetent personnel expertise behind the catch all phrase of "Indian driving conditions". Furthermore, this is reinforced in the minds of foolish public by the Auto-rags, which claim again and again that Indian driving conditions are tough and blah blah.
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Old 22nd December 2011, 02:30   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979
Correct!
Cities like San Fransisco have traffic jamps on hills with 3 times the gradient as our steepest flyover.
I remember the distinctive burning smell coming from all auto cars in such a jam.
Many companies want to hide their shoddy engineering and incompetent personnel expertise behind the catch all phrase of "Indian driving conditions". Furthermore, this is reinforced in the minds of foolish public by the Auto-rags, which claim again and again that Indian driving conditions are tough and blah blah.
+100. The whole "Indian Driving Conditions" is a big scam. Each and every big US metro has much higher traffic jams than in India. IMO, Indians are driving the auto correctly, it's Skoda's gearbox that is having issues and they are not able to fix the issues. If DSG's are failing due to driver error, do you think that Skoda will cover that even in warrant? NO WAY.

IMO, the thread title needs to be changed as well. We have ample evidences of DSG'S failure all over the world, and not just in India.
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Old 22nd December 2011, 09:35   #38
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

The DSG automatic is essentially an automated "manual gearbox" with 2 clutches, right?

If I was driving a "manual gearbox", I would not wait at the red light in gear with the clutch engaged, automated or not.

Cheers.
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Old 22nd December 2011, 09:45   #39
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

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Originally Posted by Nitrous Power View Post
IMO, the thread title needs to be changed as well.
@Nitrous Power: The thread title and poll were specifically chosen to find out certain details about DSG ownership & mechatronics failure patterns, and to find out whether (if at all) Skoda has actually been blaming a particular driving style for the high failure rate of these gearboxes (i.e. not shifting to 'N' when stopped in traffic). The fact that DSGs fail frequently across the globe is not preventing Skoda from selling the same gearbox in India, and this thread hopes to prove the following myths to be true or false:
  1. that Indian driving conditions are different from those across the world;
  2. that Indian drivers are less trained and drive in a worse manner than their counterparts in other markets where Skoda sells DSGs;
  3. that shifting to 'N' from 'D' at traffic stops should be an essential manoeuvre while driving auto 'boxes including DSG; and
  4. that DSG boxes fail due to poor operating conditions rather than poor engineering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gthang View Post
The DSG automatic is essentially an automated "manual gearbox" with 2 clutches, right?
If I was driving a "manual gearbox", I would not wait at the red light in gear with the clutch engaged, automated or not.
Huh??! Now that's a new way of looking at things! Someone must've missed something when designing the DSG 'box and writing its user manual!

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 22nd December 2011 at 09:53.
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Old 22nd December 2011, 12:36   #40
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
The DSG automatic is essentially an automated "manual gearbox" with 2 clutches, right?

If I was driving a "manual gearbox", I would not wait at the red light in gear with the clutch engaged, automated or not.

Cheers.
In case you are at a signal with 120 sec or so and you are holding the clutch for the whole time, that would increase clutch wear and tear according to me.

For shorter signals it should not have significant effect.

Anyway if it was just for argument then point noted else I don't think that's a good idea.

Cheers !!
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Old 22nd December 2011, 12:44   #41
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shashank.nk View Post
If i'm not wrong, the same DSG used in Skoda is also used in other VAG cars like the Jetta, Passat etc. right ?

Why is it that only the Skoda cars have reliability issues when it comes to DSG ? I've come across many threads highlighting 'DSG woes' and almost all the time its either the Laura or the Superb (petrol). I'v enot come across a DSG failure on say a Passat or a Jetta

Worldwide the VW DSG has an equal number of issues. In India Skoda introduced the first VW DSG unit in the Laura 1.9 PD and ofcourse faced the first lot of problems. Also skoda DSG unit cars have sold multifold compared to VW ones till now it is only recently that the new Jetta has started selling in decent numbers. So obviously most reported DSG box issues would pertain to SKODA (unit sold being higher expecially the early generation ones). But these are totally sealed boxes that pretty much from the VW plant/s itself.
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Old 22nd December 2011, 13:17   #42
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

This has changed my perspective quite considerably.

So the pretext of 'Indian driving conditions' cannot be applied.

However, several have mentioned the traffic-snarls in the US, and the steep streets of San Fransisco . That said, I'm not sure how popular the lesser VAG cars are in the USA. As far as I know, Skoda isn't much of a known brand in the US, and it's VW that represents the entire VAG?

American and Japanese cars outsell everything else in that part of the World. And most American and Japanese cars haven't been introduced with DSG 'boxes or anything similar, right? I'm not quite sure. Most cars still run on CVTs and torque-converters.

It's just an idea that I'm putting forth, and not an implication.

It would be best to wait and see how the Fiesta AT works in India, after a year or so. I'm looking forward to observing the Passats and Jettas equipped with the same.
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Old 22nd December 2011, 14:58   #43
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthang View Post
The DSG automatic is essentially an automated "manual gearbox" with 2 clutches, right?

If I was driving a "manual gearbox", I would not wait at the red light in gear with the clutch engaged, automated or not.

Cheers.
If you are going to drive an automatic like a manual(shift to neutral and D continuosly), why spend more on an automatic, might as well buy a manual.
Automatics have always been driven like this.
As for manual transmission, pressing clutch disengages clutch. Clutch wear happens when clutch is slipping. Fully disengaged, there is no cluch plate wear.
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Old 22nd December 2011, 16:07   #44
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthang View Post
The DSG automatic is essentially an automated "manual gearbox" with 2 clutches, right?

If I was driving a "manual gearbox", I would not wait at the red light in gear with the clutch engaged, automated or not.

Cheers.
Absolutely.
And the clutches do wear.
I would tend to think that DSG should decide on it's own if it should shift to N during a halt, after whatever no. of seconds, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Huh??! Now that's a new way of looking at things! Someone must've missed something when designing the DSG 'box and writing its user manual!
So do you really belive that the 2 clutches inside the DSG have infinite lifetime and need no replacement??? It's not a fluid coupling - unlike the torque convertor.
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Old 22nd December 2011, 16:28   #45
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Default Re: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?

Overheating is an issue with auto transmissions generally (in stall conditions). I think with DSG, they might not have done design modifications to rein in the waste heat or to eliminate such conditions.

I do shift to neutral with my automatic since I switch off the engine and I have to be in neutral to start the engine again !!

Last edited by srishiva : 22nd December 2011 at 16:30.
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