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Old 27th January 2015, 16:14   #91
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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Originally Posted by justin.das View Post
As per the dealer Fiat recommends half engine replacement for smoother and trouble free ownership . if we opt for half engine replacement fiat will offer 6 month warranty for the parts and will cost around 1.2 lakhs including labor .In other case we are of our own and the cost will be around 60-90 k as per the condition of internal components .
Okay, sounds all right with respect to the price. What all is included in the half engine, do you have a list ?

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Originally Posted by justin.das View Post
Fiat rejected the good will warranty claim as the vehicle is 5 years and 7 months old.Dealer agreed that the issues is there in many vehicles and the fiat is one to blame .since fiat is not ready to do any favor they are helpless .

Since dealer agrees with a 'lot of problems part', push for as much discount as possible, email fiat your cars service history and the list of timing chain fiasco's along with long recorded engine oil consumption problem.

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
If you are out of warranty, then please remove EGR and delete EGR from ECU so that this problem would not recur. Otherwise even if you change half engine, this problem will come up in another 40,000 kms in city driving conditions.
I am scratching my head, what does an EGR have to do with any of the problems he is having ?
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Old 27th January 2015, 16:21   #92
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Justin, the reasons are very simple. Just go methodically. Timing chain problem was due to long oil change interval. But engine getting clogged up with gunk is due to EGR. But these events can also happen simultaneously as well. In most turbo diesel engines including trucks fitted with EGR valves, this will be a problem.

Unless they can proactively resolve issues by opening and cleaning engine intake manifold ever 30,000 kms. Clean EGR valve every 30,000 kms. Change oil (for mineral every 5K and synthetic every 7K) in light of Indian city driving conditions. (it's not possible to drive above 100 kmph at steady throttle at all times in India, so that EGR valve remains closed).
Open any TDI or Euro FIAT forum, this will be a common occurence in all diesel engines. Unless the driver is exclusively running the engine only one highways and expressways, in which case there is no problem and one can leave the EGR unmolested.

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
I am scratching my head, what does an EGR have to do with any of the problems he is having ?
EGR is responsible for the gunk in his engine. He is driving more in cities than on highways where EGR valve can close. As a result of city driving the soot buildup is much more and that is clogging the engine and creating compression problems and oil consumption.

Last edited by lurker : 27th January 2015 at 16:23.
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Old 27th January 2015, 20:50   #93
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Who owns the original parts after the short block swap? If you still remain the owner, take it to a competent person for a commented stripdown. Inspect and Measure known wear points.
Ask Fiat to get the new engine number endorsed in your RC.

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Sutripta
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Old 27th January 2015, 22:05   #94
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Originally Posted by "lurker;3632426",
EGR is responsible for the gunk in his engine. He is driving more in cities than on highways where EGR valve can close. As a result of city driving the soot buildup is much more and that is clogging the engine and creating compression problems and oil consumption.
Italian tune-up is required here in this case for every 1000 kms if only city driving is majority. If it is highway then 5000 kms can be followed.

The above is just my thought.
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Old 28th January 2015, 22:32   #95
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

I would not touch the EGR if I were you Justin. Like Anurag said, an Italian tuneup every 500 to 600 kilometers and you are fine. It does not even have to be like a 10 kilometer high speed run, just a 4 to 5 kilometer stretch, rev it till 3500 in every gear and you are good to go.

You will need to get a plate fixed in place of an EGR, EGR system removed and the ECU tuned by a tuner to delete the EGR so that it does not throw an error code. Not worth all the trouble.

Last edited by humyum : 28th January 2015 at 22:34.
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Old 30th January 2015, 12:42   #96
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

I changed engine oil on the punto 2 days ago. Now after 200 kms down the line, it is black as ever. Then again I changed engine oil on my Honda Unicorn and Maruti Versa about a month back but they still look original via dipstick test. I have thus devised my own service schedule for the MJD.

1.Engine oil change (5000 kms)
2.Oil filter change (as often as possible)
3.Air filter change (as often as possible)
4.Intake manifold cleaning (10000 kms)
5.EGR cleaning (10000 kms)
6.Intercooler cleaning (10000 kms)

As soon as warranty period gets over. Delete EGR from ECU via Code6/Wolf remap.

Also just imagine if MJD is developing timing chain issues pulling weight of Linea, then how much more it would be stressed out pulling the Avventura.

On some Fiat forum in UK, one person was mentioning how in a Fiat dealership/factory, none of the employees drive a Fiat and the only Fiat cars around are the company cars. One of the main reasons is that Fiat suggests 20000 kms interval for MJD engines in Europe. They have same issues there as the ones in India.

Last edited by lurker : 30th January 2015 at 12:45.
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Old 30th January 2015, 18:39   #97
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Note from Mod:

A few posts discussing EGR and its functioning in general, have been moved to another relevant thread:
LINK (EGR system - What's it purpose & when does the EGR valve open/close?)

cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 30th January 2015 at 18:44.
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Old 30th January 2015, 19:02   #98
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
I changed engine oil on the punto 2 days ago. Now after 200 kms down the line, it is black as ever.

1.Engine oil change (5000 kms)
In case you are using the selenia 5w40 or equivalent fully synthetic, then you are wasting precious resources. 5k if full of city runs/short runs and 10k if city+highway, 15k if fully highway runs is optimal.

during your next oil change, do it at a FNG and let the oil drip fully- pull the plug when engine is hot and let it for about half hour. I bet that if your engine internals are in good/average condition, then oil won't get black so soon(harsh acceleration is another reason).

i did that for a 1L run ford engine and oil was brown till about 1k km from the oil change.
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Old 30th January 2015, 20:23   #99
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
I changed engine oil on the punto 2 days ago. Now after 200 kms down the line, it is black as ever. Then again I changed engine oil on my Honda Unicorn and Maruti Versa about a month back but they still look original via dipstick test. I have thus devised my own service schedule for the MJD.

1.Engine oil change (5000 kms)
2.Oil filter change (as often as possible)
3.Air filter change (as often as possible)
4.Intake manifold cleaning (10000 kms)
5.EGR cleaning (10000 kms)
6.Intercooler cleaning (10000 kms)

As soon as warranty period gets over. Delete EGR from ECU via Code6/Wolf remap.

Also just imagine if MJD is developing timing chain issues pulling weight of Linea, then how much more it would be stressed out pulling the Avventura.
Please don't misguide others.

How can you compare petrol engines with diesel engine ?
Oil color in diesels is not an indication of its quality/ remaining life.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...mediately.html (Why does engine Oil go Black immediately?)

I am speechless after reading the rest of your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Why half engine ? Can't they overbore it, add new sleeves and add a plus 1 size pistion's ?

Half engine is a better option as the block, piston,piston rings, con-rods, crankshaft, bearings, caps etc will all be new and factory spec. No need to worry about proper clearances and torquing of bearing cap bolts and the job will take less time as there is no waiting for the block to arrive from lathe.

AFAIK, a new half engine costs 60-65k.


How did they suddenly find a compression leak when it was not there the last time ? Engine compression has only one way to be checked by a simple compression gauge.
Ask them to do up all of this under warranty as you have been facing these issues since a long time.
Can you post the compression readings ?

.
My replies in bold.

Last edited by interc00led : 30th January 2015 at 20:51.
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Old 30th January 2015, 20:46   #100
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzsys View Post
In case you are using the selenia 5w40 or equivalent fully synthetic, then you are wasting precious resources. 5k if full of city runs/short runs and 10k if city+highway, 15k if fully highway runs is optimal.

during your next oil change, do it at a FNG and let the oil drip fully- pull the plug when engine is hot and let it for about half hour. I bet that if your engine internals are in good/average condition, then oil won't get black so soon(harsh acceleration is another reason).

i did that for a 1L run ford engine and oil was brown till about 1k km from the oil change.
only short city runs sir. That is why I said 5K.

Quote:
How can you compare petrol engines with diesel engine ?
think of the soot that the engine is sucking in via the EGR & intake to make it so gunky so quick. Petrol is much finer and doesn't throw in so much soot back into the engine via EGR. But the engine oils are not that very different. We are just talking of difference in grades and not earth and sea difference.

Then again to each his own. It's your car at the end of the day. Do whatever you want to do with it. You have your priorities and I have mine. Can't imagine sticking around FASS for a problem they will refuse to solve or take ownership of.
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Old 30th January 2015, 20:49   #101
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
I changed engine oil on the punto 2 days ago. Now after 200 kms down the line, it is black as ever. Then again I changed engine oil on my Honda Unicorn and Maruti Versa about a month back but they still look original via dipstick test. I have thus devised my own service schedule for the MJD.

1.Engine oil change (5000 kms)
2.Oil filter change (as often as possible)
3.Air filter change (as often as possible)
4.Intake manifold cleaning (10000 kms)
5.EGR cleaning (10000 kms)
6.Intercooler cleaning (10000 kms)

As soon as warranty period gets over. Delete EGR from ECU via Code6/Wolf remap.

Also just imagine if MJD is developing timing chain issues pulling weight of Linea, then how much more it would be stressed out pulling the Avventura.

On some Fiat forum in UK, one person was mentioning how in a Fiat dealership/factory, none of the employees drive a Fiat and the only Fiat cars around are the company cars. One of the main reasons is that Fiat suggests 20000 kms interval for MJD engines in Europe. They have same issues there as the ones in India.
If you are changing oil based on color in a diesel engine, then you should change it every 100kms in a MJD

And you plan to pull out all the components for a clean up every 10K kms, may god bless you and your car.

I have Linea with 1.3L kms, and you know how many times i have cleaned EGR?; Only once; that too mechanic mentioned that it was not needed.
Yes, It spends 95% of its time on open highways, and i make it a point to rev it until 3.5-4K RPM in 3-4-5th gears on a highway on a regular basis.
And i have been using Delvac 1 every 10K kms since 60K kms.
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Old 30th January 2015, 21:00   #102
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
think of the soot that the engine is sucking in via the EGR & intake to make it so gunky so quick. Petrol is much finer and doesn't throw in so much soot back into the engine via EGR. But the engine oils are not that very different. We are just talking of difference in grades and not earth and sea difference.

Then again to each his own. It's your car at the end of the day. Do whatever you want to do with it. You have your priorities and I have mine. Can't imagine sticking around FASS for a problem they will refuse to solve or take ownership of.
What is the source of this soot ? The soot that was produced in the combustion chamber in the first place becomes very harmful if some part of it routed back into the combustion chamber ?

Most of the the fine soot that is produced during combustion is let out via exhaust. Some of it sticks to the bore and when the oil lubricates the bore, it takes away the soot and holds it in a suspension. The engine oil will turn black even without an EGR.

Yes, to each his own. It's your money and car at the end of the day. Do whatever you want to do with them.
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Old 30th January 2015, 21:21   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
I have thus devised my own service schedule for the MJD.

1.Engine oil change (5000 kms)
2.Oil filter change (as often as possible)
3.Air filter change (as often as possible)
4.Intake manifold cleaning (10000 kms)
5.EGR cleaning (10000 kms)
6.Intercooler cleaning (10000 kms)
Wow! Now that is some schedule you have designed yourself for your MJD!

Can I know how many kms do you travel in a day?

I have owned a Ritz DDiS for 3 years and 3 days clicking 107959 kms. The oil (mineral) + oil filter was changed egret 5K kms till the car clocked 20K kms. Part which I stick to manufacturer recommendation of 10K kms.

In those 1.08L kms, IIRC, I would have cleaned the EGR once post which I never felt the need nor did my SA. I click 100 kms a day.

Other point of engine oil turning black, With 100 kms of the engine oil change, it looks black. AFAIK, nothing happens if it does look black.

All you need to do is change the following every 10K kms:

1) Air filter
2) Engine oil
3) Engine oil filter.

These three are the main components that keep the internals healthy. Getting the intake manifold and EGR opened to clean every 10K kms is am overkill.

Today's engine's are rugged and not so delicate to be taken care of so much.

Also don't forget, do an"Italian tune-up" every 1-2K kms if driven in city majorly or else 3-4K kms if spent on highways. Dies care of the 'sooth'

Quote:
Originally Posted by akshay4587 View Post
If you are changing oil based on color in a diesel engine, then you should change it every 100kms in a MJD
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Old 30th January 2015, 21:42   #104
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
In those 1.08L kms, IIRC, I would have cleaned the EGR once post which I never felt the need nor did my SA.
a4anurag: Lurker mentions that he is doing 5k city runs only. So cannot be compared with your sub-urban/highway type running. In my opinion, your ritz ddis wouldn't have even crossed half the designed life.

----------------------------

Lurker- if you are blocking egr, then you don't need to take apart the intake manifold and do egr cleaning again(redundant)+ no need intercooler cleaning too.

Have a look at sankar's swift DDiS thread- it's done away with the EGR.
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Old 30th January 2015, 21:55   #105
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Originally Posted by ramzsys View Post

a4anurag: Lurker mentions that he is doing 5k city runs only. So cannot be compared with your sub-urban/highway type running.
Even then.

Why go so much into extensive cleaning of the engine internals be it city runs. I understand it is start-stop traffic that kills but not so much.
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