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Old 12th May 2012, 18:24   #1
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Default Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

Posting this with the hope that it will benefit a lot of Palio 1.6 owners, and other high displacement car owners. Today I went to Mr. Pandian's workshop to get the gas kit serviced on my Palio S10. T-BHP members suggested Mr.Pandian's workshop as the best autogas workshop in bangalore (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/bangal...bangalore.html (LPG Specialist : Mr. Pandian (Bangalore)))

On reaching there, he immediately asked me the symptoms and asked me to pop up the hood. First glance into the engine bay, and his face became pale. He told me that the "open loop kit", is highly unrecommended for the FIAT 1.6 engine as the FIAT 1.6 Torque engine is very advanced for its category, and secondly, it is very sensitive to mods. He however recommended that, open-loop kits can be passed on to the 1.2 engines without any second thoughts.

The reasons that he stated for the above statement are as follows :
1. By installing Open loop kits we are literally converting a MPFI engine to a carburetted engine.
2. The Air intake hose has to be stretched to fit the MIXER of the LPG kit, and hence, the cushioning in the air intake hose reduces, leaving it at a risk of getting cracked under prolonged vibrations from the engine.
3. An Emulator is fixed to fool the ECU that the engine is actually running on petrol, however, all sensors work as per petrol specifications, sending potential incorrect readings to the ECU. The ECU in turn works continuously to stabilize the mixture, but to no use, as the ECU doesn't have control over PETROL flow when running on LPG. This particular phenomenon can be responsible to damage the ECU altogether. Based on his experiences, he said, he has had 4 Petras/Palios/Adventures (1.6 versions) with busted ECU's because of this open loop emulator thing. He even made me speak to a few FIAT 1.6 owners who installed open loop systems, and hearing their horror stories was terrifying.
4. Because the ECU consistently receives wrong inputs when running on LPG in open loop systems using emulators, a lot of error codes get registered in the ECU, thus, reducing the overall mileage on Petrol also, as the ECU generally tends to pass a richer mixture because of wrong inputs it has received when the car was running in LPG mode in open loop system.

The solution for all these that Mr.Pandian suggested is to use Sequential Injection Kits (that has separated slave ECU and separate injectors for LPG) for FIAT 1.6 engines, and all other High Displacement engines.

Now, listening to all this, I am tending towards taking the decision of removing the entire LPG kit altogether installed in my Palio S10. After that will go to the FIAT A**, connect it to the Scanner, delete the error codes, and reset the ECU to stock config (which would give me a boost in petrol mileage also). Don't want to take chances with such a beautiful car after all.

Just want to state that my car was running smooth with the open loop kit (no misfires etc), but the problem was with starting. It would just refuse to start in first crank because of wrong data fed to ECU in the previous run of LPG (Maybe 1.6 ECU's were of different config).

Please pour in your suggestions as to what shall I do, shall I remove the kit installed, or install sequential kit for 30K (Don't find it worth it though), and how much is true of whatever Mr.Pandian said above.
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Old 12th May 2012, 22:30   #2
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Default Re: Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

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Originally Posted by RevvMusic View Post
Posting this with the hope that it will benefit a lot of Palio 1.6 owners, and other high displacement car owners. Today I went to Mr. Pandian's workshop to get the gas kit serviced on my Palio S10. T-BHP members suggested Mr.Pandian's workshop as the best autogas workshop in bangalore (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/bangal...bangalore.html (LPG Specialist : Mr. Pandian (Bangalore)))
What he said is correct. But I doubt the emulator would cause damage to the ECU because of overloading. It could be that the ECU interface electronics might get fried due to the bad voltage levels of the emulator.

Here are some of the discussions on the LPG usage in Palio 1.6.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...o-1-6-gtx.html (LPG Kit fitment for a 2001 Palio 1.6 GTX)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...ml#post1423802 (LPG Kit fitment for a 2001 Palio 1.6 GTX)

drpullocaran has used the open loop Stargas kit for several years without any issues. Apparently he specifically did not install the emulator to avoid the complications.

Sequential kits have been used by many 1.6 owners and they work flawlessly, with very minimal drop in average and power.
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Old 12th May 2012, 22:49   #3
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Default Re: Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

I do not know whether this will damage the ECU or not, but everything you have mentioned about Emulator fooling the ECU and engine converted into carburetted in a open loop system is correct. I know this because i have owned a Hyundai Accent LPG with a open loop kit.
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Old 13th May 2012, 14:55   #4
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Default Re: Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

As far as I know, in an open loop system, there is no feedback and correction from lambda sensor or as such.. Hence, technically, we are just replacing the fuel to LPG and cutting off the feedback system. This is not a right way of doing things.

If you replace the fueling, then one has to make all the necessary changes, which almost turns out to be the closed loop sequential kit, which is the almost right way.

However, Honda and Hyundai engines respond very nicely to the open loop kits, its just the Europeans and Americans that throw tantrums with too many sensors and complicated feedback systems and corresponding ECU response. (It seems, not sure)

That said: I dont think an ECU can be damaged in an open loop system.

Experts can comment better.
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Old 13th May 2012, 15:11   #5
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Default Re: Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

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Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
its just the Europeans and Americans that throw tantrums with too many sensors and complicated feedback systems and corresponding ECU response. (It seems, not sure)
Do we have any American engines around?
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Old 13th May 2012, 15:17   #6
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Default Re: Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

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Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
Do we have any American engines around?
I meant Ford. None of which are reliable in open loop kits. Infact, in ~2004, I remember the intake plumbing from Air Filter to manifold, popping out of my cousins IKON every ~50kms or so, due to 'back pressure' (?) .

Almost all of the 1.6 Rocam and 1.6 Duratec owners I know, are not happy with the conversion, with various niggling problems.

Last edited by dhanushs : 13th May 2012 at 15:23.
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Old 13th May 2012, 15:30   #7
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Default Re: Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
We are just replacing the fuel to LPG and cutting off the feedback system. This is not a right way of doing things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoy View Post
It could be that the ECU interface electronics might get fried due to the bad voltage levels of the emulator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
I do not know whether this will damage the ECU or not, but everything you have mentioned about Emulator fooling the ECU and engine converted into carburetted in a open loop system is correct.
First of all, thanks for all your prompt responses. Can you please suggest whether I should remove the Kit altogether, then reset the ECU and enjoy peace of mind, or is it okay to use the kit as it is? (Vitamin M doesn't allow investing in a sequential kit right now )
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Old 13th May 2012, 16:42   #8
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Default Re: Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
I meant Ford. None of which are reliable in open loop kits. Infact, in ~2004, I remember the intake plumbing from Air Filter to manifold, popping out of my cousins IKON every ~50kms or so, due to 'back pressure' (?) .

Almost all of the 1.6 Rocam and 1.6 Duratec owners I know, are not happy with the conversion, with various niggling problems.
I know about the issues involved with fitting LPG and CNG to these engines. BTW none of these engine have their roots from America, not even the Ford cars we have are from America. Same applies for Chevy except Cruze which is a global car.
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Old 27th July 2012, 15:14   #9
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Default Re: Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

Hi Revv, ask Mr.Pandian whether it is better to convert your open loop system to closed loop system for time being and later go for sequential injection system. I know Pandian Sir close to 2 years he is very reliable with his advice.
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Old 27th July 2012, 15:28   #10
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Default Re: Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

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Originally Posted by deehunk View Post
Hi Revv, ask Mr.Pandian whether it is better to convert your open loop system to closed loop system for time being and later go for sequential injection system. I know Pandian Sir close to 2 years he is very reliable with his advice.
deehunk, unfortunately, I have already gone ahead and got rid of the LPG kit altogether. And with rising LPG prices I thought there's not much use of retaining it, as the margin of benefit diminishes. Moreover, I now get a huge boot space to cater to my family outings
Yes Pandian sir is a very knowledgeable person and is very honest and humble.
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Old 27th July 2012, 15:31   #11
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Default Re: Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

Oh man, even we were disappointed with the price of LPG in May, but now it is back to Rs.45 so once again it has become economical. What you did is probably right, Palio 1.6 is designed for its ruthless performance so enjoy it.
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Old 27th July 2012, 15:55   #12
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Default Re: Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

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Originally Posted by deehunk View Post
Oh man, even we were disappointed with the price of LPG in May, but now it is back to Rs.45 so once again it has become economical. What you did is probably right, Palio 1.6 is designed for its ruthless performance so enjoy it.
Exactly, I'm Actually enjoying it's ruthless beastly performance again, and this time, without any fuss. 90% of the problems that were with the car vanished instantaneously the moment I got the LPG kit removed, and the petrol mileage too increased by 2 kmpl. The price of peace of mind is far more than the price of petrol I guess. And as GTO says, "There is more to life than just kmpl"

Recently, took the S10 to the Western Ghats and it returned a fantastic 15kmpl.
Here's the travelogue :
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travel...o-1-6-s10.html (Western Ghats of Wayanad conquered in a Palio 1.6 S10)

Last edited by RevvMusic : 27th July 2012 at 16:04.
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Old 19th September 2013, 23:14   #13
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Talking Re: Palio 1.6 - LPG Conversion Warning

I wanted to LPGfy my Fiat Palio Stile (1.1 L petrol, 2007).

After reading many threads like this, I contacted Mr Pandian and asked for a reliable LPG specialist in Chennai. He referred to a contact of his in Royapettah Mr. Murali. Murali runs Dhanalaxmi Car Gas conversion, a govt authorised LPG conversion place.
http://www.justdial.com/Chennai/Dhan...617135156-A5F8

It has been more than 1 month now, my Palio 1.1 is running fine. The BRC kit makes my Palio 1.1 run a bit more smoother. I was told its because sequential kits are capable of using more of the 105 octanes of LPG than open loop ones. Palio 1.1 owners will find this useful as there is always some rattling in 1st gear when you run petrol.

It costs well upwards of 30k for the fitment but I feel its worth a shot (so far fingers crossed).

I wouldn't do it for a new car but given that mine has done ~50k KMS, I will get my money back if I drive it to office (44 kms to and fro) for 12 months! Mileage is 10-11 kms per litre. On petrol I get 11-12 kms per litre.

Cabin noise is higher when idling, but lesser when not idling. Engine temperature is higher (say 10% more), but not alarming. So far driven only in city and suburbs, never pushed it beyond 85kmph so far.

RC book:
******
Needs LPG stamping. It costs Rs 2000 :( agent expenses included. I got it done anyway as some told insurance will be invalid without it. Documentation includes emission test (Rs 50/-), weight certificate in an approved weigh bridge (Rs 80/-) and insurance copy.

******************************************
Can someone give expert opinion on the below 2 points?
******************************************
1) As Palio is a 'TANK', he wasn't able to drill holes beside the petrol fuel port for LPG inlet. The LPG inlet is instead on the rear beneath the bumper. He explained there is a non-return valve which will prevent LPG from leaking even if the delivery pipe beneath bumper gets destroyed on impact.

2) I was told the only recurring expense would be to replace the gas-filter every 12000 kms.

************
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