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Old 30th May 2012, 16:59   #31
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal View Post
1 liter SOHC engines ECU to run a 1.3 liter DOHC 100 hp engine ?
That's right. It is running perfectly well. No issues at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbz180 View Post
Fantastic stuff! I've been a little busy for the past few days and haven't had a chance to go through the full details but it's great to know that the project is complete and the car is a rocket with no problems.

AFAIK, an engine transplant is never quite easy, so the fact that you've been able to do this smoothly is brilliant and am sure that you must have a great sense of fulfillment and satisfaction to bring a dream project to a successful end and now you can enjoy it too!

About the running in part, err, why don't you just drive the car over to Cal? That way, the engine will be settled, you can then storm the car and I'll have a helping hand for my car

Kudos to you.

Best
Prithvi
Thanks Prithvi. Will consider your offer. Although i definately plan to come down to cal soon.

What's the status on your car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nim_peter View Post
Congrats on the transplant, hope you are having fun. Could you please share the procedure for RTO paper work, like, what are the things required to get it done and the cost involved. Some queries on the engine bill and papers/documents required for applying in RTO. My GTX engine is having some problems and the members here suggested to go for new engine, I am considering that. Thanks in advance.
Thanks.I have a friend in the local RTO who is doing the needful. Haven't paid any money as yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rakesh_r View Post
Congratulations and kudos for the successful transplant.I too have a 98 zen back in my native place(Kerala).In Mumbai i have a swift di.But always loved the way the zen handled,with the only draw backs being the underpowered engine and lousy brakes.I had been looking forward to swap out the engine,limited to either an esteem/baleno engine.

Please keep us updated.
Thanks. The Zen Carb was quite under powered. But the MPFI ones had enough power for daily use. The brakes are quite good i find on the Zen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by basky View Post
Congratulations on the Major Heart Transplant. One quote I got was for 1.5L for the 1300 GTI engine + ecu + wiring. High is it not for a used engine?

Sourcing of car parts is the biggest pain. Getting it abroad officially subjects it to a CIF Duty of 35(?)% unless it is carried in as passenger luggage. Any idea if they allow the personal or commercial import of used components, assemblies or engines ? Or is it these are brought in as scrap metal ?

Glad if you throw some light.
Thanks.

The quote you got is what is the market price they sell for now. Sourcing parts is not at all a pain if you have your network established. The customs duty is 33% on the declared value. One car always bring them by hand to avoid customs duty and shipping charges. Used Components are easier to get than engines. I had imported a Brand New engine for someone a few months back and i did have a bit of trouble getting it cleared.

Quote:
Originally Posted by basky View Post
Got around to searching the Forum which gives most answers to my questions - should have done it before the previous post .
The must reads for those interested are linked below.

1 (Engine Graveyard - Where old engines go to die..)
2 (Import Engine from US/UK)
3 (Importing used engines/Spare Parts?)
4 (importing engine into india)
Those threads are quite mis-leading to the present laws and norms. The customs have become more strict nowadays. Importing used engines is almost impossible unless you are a scrap recycler. I guess it should be avoided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m4ugr8 View Post
The Engine will be running very lean at high revs because the zen ECU cant give so much fuel as required by this DOHC engine. Rev limit should also be what the stock G10 engine/ecu has. I recommend getting an aftermarket ECU installed so you can run engine safely and also enjoy the real potential of the GTi.

What gearbox are you using ?? The stock Zen or running custom ratios ??

Why will it run very lean at high revs ? The ECU is a self learning device. It changes its programming depending on a number of parameters like, throttle position, air temperature, Air Pressure etc. The amount of fuel will be controlled as per the inputs the ECU will be getting from the various parameters. The injectors are what are important in this setup and how the calibration has been done. The Engine is running safely and i still do enjoy the real potential of the GTi.

I am using the Stock Zen gearbox. Will be running custom ratios at a later stage.
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Old 31st May 2012, 00:18   #32
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

So this was your project which you told me about.Lovely work,nice to see people getting their hands dirty.

Considering that engine is heavier,wont the car be more front heavy,understeer a lot?
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Old 31st May 2012, 17:50   #33
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
That's right. It is running perfectly well. No issues at all.

Why will it run very lean at high revs ? The ECU is a self learning device. It changes its programming depending on a number of parameters like, throttle position, air temperature, Air Pressure etc. The amount of fuel will be controlled as per the inputs the ECU will be getting from the various parameters. The injectors are what are important in this setup and how the calibration has been done. The Engine is running safely and i still do enjoy the real potential of the GTi.
If that was the case wont all cars with similar cc engines run common ECU's ?

How about installing a wideband o2 & knowing the actual situation ?
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Old 31st May 2012, 22:29   #34
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by avishar View Post
So this was your project which you told me about.Lovely work,nice to see people getting their hands dirty.

Considering that engine is heavier,wont the car be more front heavy,understeer a lot?
Yes the same one.The weight difference is not very much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal View Post
If that was the case wont all cars with similar cc engines run common ECU's ?
They do but then there is a small difference, some cars with the similar cc engines have a distributor type ignition system(esteem) and some have igniter type ignition system(Swift petrol, Gypsy). Hence the parameters from which the ecu will work change in that scenario. IF the parameters are the same it will definitely work.

For example, many people run their gypsy's on a wagon R ECU. They run well because the paramaters are the same. The Gypsy and WagonR both run on igniter type ignition. The swift Petrol ECU should work as well . The thing to also remember is both are the same euro compliant. Because the sensors are a bit different over the other complaints.


For example, run a euro 3 gypsy on a WagonR euro 3 ECU. One cannot run a Euro 2 Gypsy with a Euro 3 wagon R ECU.
Similarly the Esteem ECU cannot be used on the Gypsy but the Swift petrol one can be .


If you also compare the Zen and Wagon R ecu couplers are exactly the same but then they cannot be interchanged as the Zen has a distributor type iginition system and the Wagon R has a Igniter type ignition system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal View Post
How about installing a wideband o2 & knowing the actual situation ?
Have thought of doing that. Will be done at the next stage.
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Old 1st June 2012, 15:51   #35
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post


Why will it run very lean at high revs ? The ECU is a self learning device. It changes its programming depending on a number of parameters like, throttle position, air temperature, Air Pressure etc. The amount of fuel will be controlled as per the inputs the ECU will be getting from the various parameters. The injectors are what are important in this setup and how the calibration has been done. The Engine is running safely and i still do enjoy the real potential of the GTi.

I am using the Stock Zen gearbox. Will be running custom ratios at a later stage.
Lets compare your swap to a very common honda swap that people do!!

Swapping their SOHC vtec engines to a DOHC vtec engine!!

The most common swap being the indian B15c2 to a B16 (1498cc to a 1595cc), notice the difference here in terms of CC's, it is just about 97 cc smaller than the B16, still, when you plonk a wideband to a honda city with a B16 engine running on a non B16 (aka stock ecu), you will come to see that the engine starts to run super lean at higher revvs!!

Without getting further into the technical details like the injector size and a lot of other factors!! The point is, with such a small difference in cc, the honda ecu cant fuel the B16 and tends to run it lean at the higher revvs!!

In your case, there is a massive difference, in terms of cc and also the revvs!! Its unimaginable that the stock zen ecu will be able to handle the G13 to its full potential!! You better put a wideband and check, or else, you might end up frying your motor.


My two cents!!

Cheers
Shrey

Last edited by ssjr0498 : 1st June 2012 at 15:56.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 11:26   #36
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

Running the Engine is one part and running it at optimum and full potential is one thing, I advised you to put a aftermarket ECU because I have seen the difference it makes since my friend also has a Twin Cam GTi in his Zen. Like I said if you want to experience the real potential of the GTi get a ECU
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Old 3rd June 2012, 18:09   #37
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

Just To summarize what Shrey mentioned- 'Its all about CFM' .Air Flow rates, more air volume - that the stock ECU cannot fuel.

The G13B Head flows a lot more than the esteem sohc head ,G10's notwithstanding.

Quick Fix: The esteem ECU is a plug and play,But It will run havoc with your AC operation though.
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Old 4th June 2012, 18:43   #38
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

Nice conversion, looks very tidy. Depending which engine / ECU combo you're running your redline will change.

Standard redline is 7450RPM with 75kw but no point revving that high
Cultus special engine from Japan online is 8600RPM with 86kw

As to your ECU you'll need to retain the AFM unless you go for an aftermarket ECU.

What you can do on the standard ECU - you can change the cams for BD10 or BD14 spec (google this) and still run on a standard ECU with a little more fuel pressure, hi flow airfilter, 4-1 or 4-2-1 extractor and you'll have a nice responsive engine.

Then you can try to source a reverse intake cultus manifold for some more power.

There are chips for the ECU that'll add more fuel and more timing but you'll need to make sure you can get high octane fuel in it all the time.

With the cultus intake manifold, more fuel pressure, 11.5:1 compression and a 4-1 extractor you can expect around 86kw from the engine as it'd be essentially cultus spec.

try RedlineGTi.com - Home of the Suzuki Swift GTi (ssgti) it's an Australia based website with a forum that has a wealth of knowledge on the engine, modifications etc. There are always lots of things in the for sale section as well. They'd be interested to see your conversion no doubt
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Old 18th June 2012, 01:47   #39
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

Sorry guys have been a little busy with things hence couldn't respond sooner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
Lets compare your swap to a very common honda swap that people do!!

Swapping their SOHC vtec engines to a DOHC vtec engine!!

The most common swap being the indian B15c2 to a B16 (1498cc to a 1595cc), notice the difference here in terms of CC's, it is just about 97 cc smaller than the B16, still, when you plonk a wideband to a honda city with a B16 engine running on a non B16 (aka stock ecu), you will come to see that the engine starts to run super lean at higher revvs!!

Without getting further into the technical details like the injector size and a lot of other factors!! The point is, with such a small difference in cc, the honda ecu cant fuel the B16 and tends to run it lean at the higher revvs!!

In your case, there is a massive difference, in terms of cc and also the revvs!! Its unimaginable that the stock zen ecu will be able to handle the G13 to its full potential!! You better put a wideband and check, or else, you might end up frying your motor.


My two cents!!

Cheers
Shrey

Thanks for that. I also did borrow a wideband from a tuner friend and instaqlled it to check the results. Well the engine mixture is Rich throughout till the rev limiter.

Also would like to point out here, that if you were to bore out your stock honda block to an oversize, it would increase the CC of the engine. If you were to even bore it get half of the displacement of the DOHC honda engine (50cc) approx, in that way the car should run lean? If the honda SOHC ECM isn't able to supply enough fuel to the DOHC honda engine i guess then there is some mistake being made somewhere.

P.S. I am running custom injectors on my motor. I am having no issues whatsoever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by m4ugr8 View Post
Running the Engine is one part and running it at optimum and full potential is one thing, I advised you to put a aftermarket ECU because I have seen the difference it makes since my friend also has a Twin Cam GTi in his Zen. Like I said if you want to experience the real potential of the GTi get a ECU
I agree with you. The engine is being used at optimum requirement.

Where the question of running it at full potential is concerned, my engine is revving less than its potential and the power is unbeatable. I really on't know what i will end up doing and where i will end up running this car at its full potential. If you doubt what i say about how the car runs, you are most welcome to come and drive the car at your convenience. I have experienced a Zen running of a programmable ECU in Maharashtra sometime back, it was about 20% more faster than my car.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
Just To summarize what Shrey mentioned- 'Its all about CFM' .Air Flow rates, more air volume - that the stock ECU cannot fuel.

The G13B Head flows a lot more than the esteem sohc head ,G10's notwithstanding.

Quick Fix: The esteem ECU is a plug and play,But It will run havoc with your AC operation though.
How can you say it cannot fuel ? The ECU is self learning. The readings are well within the range of the stock ECU.

Didn't get the thing on the head.Esteem and the GTi motor are both G13B.

If you refer to the service manuals of the Zen and Esteem, both the ignition timing is the same, The AFR is determeined by the other parameters detected from the sensors. Hence how do you say its a quick fix ? The only thing that will happen is the engine will rev 700rpm more with the esteem ecu.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulstar View Post
Nice conversion, looks very tidy. Depending which engine / ECU combo you're running your redline will change.

Standard redline is 7450RPM with 75kw but no point revving that high
Cultus special engine from Japan online is 8600RPM with 86kw

As to your ECU you'll need to retain the AFM unless you go for an aftermarket ECU.

What you can do on the standard ECU - you can change the cams for BD10 or BD14 spec (google this) and still run on a standard ECU with a little more fuel pressure, hi flow airfilter, 4-1 or 4-2-1 extractor and you'll have a nice responsive engine.

Then you can try to source a reverse intake cultus manifold for some more power.

There are chips for the ECU that'll add more fuel and more timing but you'll need to make sure you can get high octane fuel in it all the time.

With the cultus intake manifold, more fuel pressure, 11.5:1 compression and a 4-1 extractor you can expect around 86kw from the engine as it'd be essentially cultus spec.

try RedlineGTi.com - Home of the Suzuki Swift GTi (ssgti) it's an Australia based website with a forum that has a wealth of knowledge on the engine, modifications etc. There are always lots of things in the for sale section as well. They'd be interested to see your conversion no doubt
Thanks Paul for writing in.
I did rebuild the complete engine. I plan to run this car on this setup for now and at a later date may consider going in for an aftermarket ecu. It is much faster than any of our cars here that are NA since they are all SOHC.

Regards

Indrojit
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Old 19th June 2012, 14:59   #40
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

Buddy,

your answers are very confusing! However, good to know that your build is running well!

Cheers
Shrey

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
Sorry guys have been a little busy with things hence couldn't respond sooner.





Thanks for that. I also did borrow a wideband from a tuner friend and instaqlled it to check the results. Well the engine mixture is Rich throughout till the rev limiter.

Also would like to point out here, that if you were to bore out your stock honda block to an oversize, it would increase the CC of the engine. If you were to even bore it get half of the displacement of the DOHC honda engine (50cc) approx, in that way the car should run lean? If the honda SOHC ECM isn't able to supply enough fuel to the DOHC honda engine i guess then there is some mistake being made somewhere.

P.S. I am running custom injectors on my motor. I am having no issues whatsoever.




I agree with you. The engine is being used at optimum requirement.

Where the question of running it at full potential is concerned, my engine is revving less than its potential and the power is unbeatable. I really on't know what i will end up doing and where i will end up running this car at its full potential. If you doubt what i say about how the car runs, you are most welcome to come and drive the car at your convenience. I have experienced a Zen running of a programmable ECU in Maharashtra sometime back, it was about 20% more faster than my car.




How can you say it cannot fuel ? The ECU is self learning. The readings are well within the range of the stock ECU.

Didn't get the thing on the head.Esteem and the GTi motor are both G13B.

If you refer to the service manuals of the Zen and Esteem, both the ignition timing is the same, The AFR is determeined by the other parameters detected from the sensors. Hence how do you say its a quick fix ? The only thing that will happen is the engine will rev 700rpm more with the esteem ecu.




Thanks Paul for writing in.
I did rebuild the complete engine. I plan to run this car on this setup for now and at a later date may consider going in for an aftermarket ecu. It is much faster than any of our cars here that are NA since they are all SOHC.

Regards

Indrojit
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:15   #41
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

quick question

are you selling the Twin Cam ? I saw one on sale in another forum and observed your name.
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:05   #42
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

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Originally Posted by anand_lukose View Post
quick question

are you selling the Twin Cam ? I saw one on sale in another forum and observed your name.

Yes one of my twin cam engine's are up for sale.

Thanks

Indrojit
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Old 2nd July 2013, 06:19   #43
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

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Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
Yes one of my twin cam engine's are up for sale.

Thanks

Indrojit
Hey do you still have the car with the engine? how is it performing, did you make the suspension and tyre changes?
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Old 24th February 2015, 20:42   #44
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

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Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
One day i remember sitting with a friend and asking him about the great GTi engine. For those of you who do not know what a GTi engine is, its the Twin Cam 1300cc engine that came on the swift abroad and had 100BHP on stock. He told me that there were a few Zen's, Esteem's and a Gypsy running with the same engine. I didn't take much interest in it at first. My friend then said that he would be interested in an engine if could get him one. After searching high and low I found some engines but the prices were quite high. And hence he dropped the idea.

One day i found a good engine for sale and told my friend but then at that point he wasn't interested in it at that price. By that time after doing a lot of research on the internet i started developing an interest towards it. I then decided and picked up the engine.

The Engine reached me after a month's time and i finally had the engine with me. The next thing in question was, what vehicle to install this engine in? We had a 2003 Maruti Zen at home which clocked about 80k kms on the odo. This car was being used but not as much as we had got 2 other replacement cars in the house in the mean time. So then after discussing the idea of plonking the engine into this idea with many people over several months and then again doing more research on how to get it running, the work finally was started in April,2012 at Mr. Rahul Dutt's workshop.

He is one of the most knowledgeable people around and is technically very sound apart from being a hands on person. The engine was taken to him and it was decided that we would rebuild the engine as the condition was unknown.

We sat and made a list of items required and then they were ordered. The whole engine was rebuilt on the table first by the Expert himself. After that the car was taken to his workshop. The old engine was taken off. While the all the mountings and fittings were transferred from one engine to the other, the Suspension & steering were overhauled.

The engine was then finally plonked into the car and was fired up. The car start in half a self. I was really apprehensive of how the car would turn out but then i had the expert telling me that its gonna turn out well.

The basic purpose of doing this modification was to learn on the job about modifications as my knowledge is very limited and i have always been very keen to know more. It was also to try and participate in events like autocross and other motor sports events along with keeping this a daily driver. I sincerely believe that the best way to make a car reliable is to keep driving it and sorting out problems that arise one after the other.

Things on the cards -

1). Intake - Pipercross - Done
2). Exhaust - Free flow - Semi finished
3). Tyres - To be bought
4). Tacho Meter - To be bought
5). Stiff Suspension - To be done

Most people running this setup go in for either a twin carb setup or a go in for an after market programmable ECU. Mr. Rahul Dutt is a firm believer that the car should be driven with the stock MPFI setup and that is what we are running. The car is being driven 25-30kms a day to run the new engine in. There is more than enough torque and power than one can ever imagine. It can be driven on top gear at about 35kms/hr and there is enough power to pull through. It is also taking alot of effort not to step on the accelerator and fly the car so that the engine runs in well.

Sorry for the poor quality of the pics. Pics all taken from my phone. Request the mods if they can change the resolution to a smaller size and the quality would improve. The pics are clear on my computer but are very pix elated on the forum.

Looking forward to valuable comments and feedbacks.

Some photographs of the work in progess. Will update with recent pics soon.

Thank You

Regards

Indrojit Sircar
Hello Indrojit Sircar,
Firstly, I would like to congratulate you for such a bold decision to swap engines in cars. I had purchased a 118NE with the intention of installing a Toyota Diesel Engine, but somewhere down the lane failed to procure a reliable engine.

Is it possible to do an engine swap on the 118NE? And from where did you get the 1300cc GTI Engine? Can suggest some good engines for the 118 NE? And where can I find trusted engine suppliers in Kharagpur?

Thanks in Advance.
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Old 24th February 2015, 22:31   #45
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Default Re: 2003 Maruti Zen Engine Swap : Twin Cam 1300cc GTi Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashok Naik View Post
Is it possible to do an engine swap on the 118NE?
Technically it is possible, but it isn't legal to swap an engine (other than a brand new engine from manufacturer) People do upgrade their engines (swapped from other / bigger cars) to use them on tracks. On road, no issues until everything goes well, but it is illegal.
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