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Old 30th July 2014, 18:06   #31
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Originally Posted by Added_flavor View Post
Guys, I have a question here. Are engine "mounts" same as engine "bedding"?

My understanding of the term "bedding" is nothing but rubber that's supposed to stop the transmission of engine vibrations into the cabin and other parts of the car. Please correct if I'm wrong.

Now, in case the bedding is weak (Symptoms = The car shakes during starting and stopping and also jarring/vibrations at lower speeds in higher gears), will the rubber bedding have to be replaced or can it be "repaired"?
Hope I have understood what you wanted to convey but AFAIK and IIRC,

The two terms that you have mentioned are totally different, no connection whatsoever.

Engine Mounts: The part on which the engine is connected to the chassis.

Engine Bedding: This is nothing but 'running-in' of an engine.

Apologies if I have understood you wrong.

Anurag.
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Old 30th July 2014, 18:33   #32
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Engine Bedding: This is nothing but 'running-in' of an engine.
Old School folks always referred the Engine mounts as Bedding or Foundation. In fact in my Kinetic Honda, the Rubber bushes for the Engine's pivot locked to the chassis was referred to as "Engine Bedding Bush" whenever I went to pick one from the Automobile shop.

Going by that inference, Bedding and Engine mounts are the same.
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Old 30th July 2014, 18:34   #33
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
Old School folks always referred the Engine mounts as Bedding or Foundation. In fact in my Kinetic Honda, the Rubber bushes for the Engine's pivot locked to the chassis was referred to as "Engine Bedding Bush" whenever I went to pick one from the Automobile shop.

Going by that inference, Bedding and Engine mounts are the same.
Thank you for enlightening me. I have learnt a new thing today!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Added_flavor View Post
Now, in case the bedding is weak (Symptoms = The car shakes during starting and stopping and also jarring/vibrations at lower speeds in higher gears), will the rubber bedding have to be replaced or can it be "repaired"?
If both are the same then the bedding / mounts can't be repaired.

Anurag.

Last edited by a4anurag : 30th July 2014 at 18:35.
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:47   #34
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

As mentioned above my Swift was with Sai Service Hinjewadi to rectify the vibration issue which has been well documented in my previous posts.

As promised Sai Service changed the hydraulic engine mount. The total cost of replacing all the mounts was Rs. 4,909/- The work was done under warranty and I only had to sign on the bill.

With regards to the vibration- The car feels much smoother now. The vibration which was happening between 1800~2000 rpm in 4th and 5th gear has almost been eliminated. Whilst earlier it used to happen at all times irrespective of throttle position now i can feel only a muted vibration when i floor the throttle at around 1800 rpm in the above mentioned gears.

So basically the vibration is not eliminated. But its probably at 10% of what it was earlier. The SA says that he has noticed this in all Swift diesels and he does not have an answer why. He will be raising a technical query with MSIL and will update me with an answer.

Can anyone on the forum throw some light on this?
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:57   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potenza View Post

So basically the vibration is not eliminated. But its probably at 10% of what it was earlier. The SA says that he has noticed this in all Swift diesels and he does not have an answer why. He will be raising a technical query with MSIL and will update me with an answer.

Can anyone on the forum throw some light on this?
Even my Swift ZDi does have this little vibration when the RPM is between 1800-2100. My car shall be going for 20K service tomorrow. Will talk to my SA and see what can be done.

I suspect it to be the engine mounts but after reading your post then it is something more than engine mounts. Hopefully the clutch is fine else that'll also go kaput soon.

Anurag.
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Old 5th August 2014, 10:09   #36
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Need some advice on possible fixes for a Swift lxi clutch judder.

The car is my dad's and is from the first few batches when launched in 2005, run 42k Kms.
I take it out once a while to see if all is fine.
There were few issues out of which one has been there for quite a while now and very annoying. When moving in first gear, mainly from standstill, there is a clutch judder which just goes on and on until I lift off the clutch completely, which results in a jump or I have to depress the clutch again.
It got so annoying that I floored the throttle once when this was happening and the tires started squealing in jerk mode., not a constant squeal.

The funny part being the issue is not there when my dad drives, probably since he got used to adjusting in the clutch release,.and mainly there is no free revving in any gears when accelerating which I believe is the sign of worn plates and gear shifts are typical Swift still.

Has the clutch plates failed in this case or is there any adjustment to get rid of the jerks? It's so annoying driving a car which otherwise is fun.
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Old 5th August 2014, 13:03   #37
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Originally Posted by tharian View Post

Has the clutch plates failed in this case or is there any adjustment to get rid of the jerks? It's so annoying driving a car which otherwise is fun.
Try looking at the clutch release bearings which could have gone kaput and also the pressure plates for wear and tear. It could be uneven.

Anurag.
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Old 5th August 2014, 15:16   #38
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
I suspect it to be the engine mounts but after reading your post then it is something more than engine mounts.
Based on your earlier reply I was suspecting the same. And after the rubber mounts were changed made me believe that once the hydraulic mount was replaced the problem will be solved. But that wasn't the case.

From the beginning there's been one thing that has bothered me. The specific rpm mark is attained in all the gears. If it really is the engine mounts why does it vibrate only in 4th and 5th gear? This thought originally made me feel that there's something wrong with the gearbox.

Anyways, I guess we will wait for your SA's inputs.
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Old 5th August 2014, 17:37   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potenza View Post

Based on your earlier reply I was suspecting the same. And after the rubber mounts were changed made me believe that once the hydraulic mount was replaced the problem will be solved. But that wasn't the case.

From the beginning there's been one thing that has bothered me. The specific rpm mark is attained in all the gears. If it really is the engine mounts why does it vibrate only in 4th and 5th gear? This thought originally made me feel that there's something wrong with the gearbox.

Anyways, I guess we will wait for your SA's inputs.
Indeed killing me too. There is vibration 'only' in that RPM range and none below it or above.

May be the clutch / flywheel also could contributing something here.

Hopefully there is some solution. Fingers crossed.

Anurag.
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Old 6th August 2014, 10:06   #40
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Indeed killing me too. There is vibration 'only' in that RPM range and none below it or above.

May be the clutch / flywheel also could contributing something here.

Hopefully there is some solution. Fingers crossed.

Anurag.
I have been facing exactly same issue since last 12 thousand Kms. Mine Swift ZDI has done 37k. This has something to do with "Resonance". Below is the extract from Wikipedia

Quote:
Natural frequency is the frequency at which a system tends to oscillate in the absence of any driving or damping force.[1]

Free vibrations of any elastic body is called natural vibration and happens at a frequency called natural frequency. Natural vibrations are different from forced vibration which happen at frequency of applied force (forced frequency). If forced frequency is equal to the natural frequency, the amplitude of vibration increases manifold. This phenomenon is known as resonance
Hence I believe when the Natural Frequency of Mounts matches with that of Engine/ Turbo at this RPM Range, strong vibrations are felt.

On my Bike too; the RVMs used to vibrate at only certain RPM range and not below and above it.
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Old 6th August 2014, 16:50   #41
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Originally Posted by beast_within View Post
Hence I believe when the Natural Frequency of Mounts matches with that of Engine/ Turbo at this RPM Range, strong vibrations are felt.

On my Bike too; the RVMs used to vibrate at only certain RPM range and not below and above it.
Totally agree with the fact that vibrations happen when two frequencies match.

However the question here is: Why does this happen only in 4th and 5th gear? The engine crosses 1800~2000 rpm in every gear. This means that the turbo spools up and the same amount of torque will be produced at a particular rpm in every gear. The throttle position can be modulated and kept the same in every gear. When all these conditions happen in all forward gears why does the vibration show its head only in two gears?
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Old 7th August 2014, 14:09   #42
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Originally Posted by Potenza View Post
Totally agree with the fact that vibrations happen when two frequencies match.

However the question here is: Why does this happen only in 4th and 5th gear? The engine crosses 1800~2000 rpm in every gear. This means that the turbo spools up and the same amount of torque will be produced at a particular rpm in every gear. The throttle position can be modulated and kept the same in every gear. When all these conditions happen in all forward gears why does the vibration show its head only in two gears?
Agreed! But I Turbo alone is not responsible for these vibrations. May be during there 2 gears the combination of vibrations or Frequencies of Transmission system and other moving components under the hood has a cascading effect and hence results in these vibrations.

Also I feel that there vibrations may be present in 1-2 and 3 Gears also but may not be so prominent and are subsided under Engine and body vibrations. They are felt only in 4-5 gears since the overall Engine and ride becomes smoother in higher gears.

In my car these vibrations are not felt if I upshift at around 2500 rpms from 3rd gear onwards.

Have visited couple of MASS and MSM in Delhi and they do not acknowledge this as an issue.
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Old 8th August 2014, 08:28   #43
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

I took the Swift to Autoteam last week to check on the vibrations. It will come around 2K rpm irrespective of the gear. But more evident in 5th at 80kmph than 3rd at 60kmph. Its more like a resonance vibration and goes away after the engine crosses 2200 rpm. And it's very feeble and one would miss it if not paying attention.

The technician Benny drove the car and he suspected the clutch. Then, for good or bad the Territory Service Manager from MSIL, Mr. Manikandan was there and the SA sought his help to look into the issue. As usual, the SA couldn't find any during trial and wanted to take the car on a longer drive. I then drove it and the TSM acknowledged the vibration.

He wanted the car to be hooked to the scanner and ran multiple checks on all systems but there was no error to be found anywhere.
Clutch judder & vibrations-wp_20140725_001.jpg

He then got on the car on the lift and and some five folks including him walked under the car, looked up, touched a few things and gave the verdict that the car is fine. They then noticed the 195/60 R15 XM2 on the car and opined that could be the reason.

And then the TSM gave his two very valuable suggestions for the day.

1) Keep the Swift below 2K. Always shift before 1800 rpm and one will be rewarded with no vibrations and a superb fuel efficiency.
To which, I told him I could have bought a Beat Diesel.

2) Switch back to the stock 185/65 R15 MRF by ditching the Michelin.
I thanked him and left the place soon after. I didn't want to pursue it with them as I didn't want them to experiment on the car.

Looks like I will need to get a mail down to MSIL. MASS is good for doing regular stuff, but problem solving, no that's not their cup of tea.

And this issue looks like some problem with the clutch. And looking at the cases here, maybe a manufacturing defect of a part.
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Old 8th August 2014, 09:06   #44
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I too have been facing this issue in both my 2010 Ritz VDi and currently on the Swift ZDi.

Below is the answer by the SA in my case when I pointed out the vibrations reported yesterday during the 20K service.

Cross posting from my thread for easy reference:

Quote:
Coming to the problem of vibrations that I had felt. Hearing my problem another customer who drives a 76K Ritz VDi spoke up and demanded an answer.

A cool and simple answer given, it is common in all DDiS engines be it Swift / Ritz / SX4 / Ertiga.

I didn't believe it, so my SA to prove his statement went to the security office and bought 19 keys with him of Swift, Ritz and Ertiga's DDiS that had come for service. He asked me to drive all and see if it was a common issue or no and going by their registration numbers they were manufactured at different periods.

Though I didn't drive all of them but just 2 cars and yes they were vibrating at the same RPM range but at a much higher threshold than what I was experiencing. So I thanked the SA & Service Manager, paid the bill and walked out.
--------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
1) Keep the Swift below 2K. Always shift before 1800 rpm and one will be rewarded with no vibrations and a superb fuel efficiency.
Wow! The best suggestion I have heard till date. This guy takes the crown. Instead of solving or finding the root cause to the problem they are saying not to touch 2K so that vibrations aren't felt. How silly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
2) Switch back to the stock 185/65 R15 MRF by ditching the Michelin.
I am running on stock alloys and tyres but still face the issue. Please tell that SA / TSM that the vibrations felt are NOT related to tyres.

I am suspecting the clutch or engine mounts. But one BHPian has changed the engine mounts but the problem still persists.

And I did write a mail to Maruti but no reply on this matter. This issue needs some digging.

Anurag.

Last edited by a4anurag : 8th August 2014 at 09:14.
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Old 8th August 2014, 11:44   #45
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
I am running on stock alloys and tyres but still face the issue. Please tell that SA / TSM that the vibrations felt are NOT related to tyres.
I did. BHPian vaisakhr' ZDi running the stock MRF also has these vibrations.
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