Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10th August 2014, 21:16   #46
BHPian
 
Sridhar K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chennai
Posts: 587
Thanked: 188 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

^^^ I too have the same issue. I haven't had any time recently to spend with MASS to even show them the problem let alone them diagnose the problem.

However, the most logical explanation and diagnosis where the issue was resolved was with a member from another forum.

Posting his experience here verbatim.
Quote:
"In the lower gears it will not be easily felt, but in 4th and 5th, if it is in an rpm range you should be able to find out.

My car had a similar problem between 2000 - 2200 rpm and the issue was identified as a problem with the cushion spring in the clutch. Not even in my wildest imagination would I have thought of clutch as the root cause. I suspected the engine mounting, ECU (fuelling problem), etc. The technical trainer at the dealership workshop had faced a similar problem in the past, and he had done enough R&D with that vehicle then. So when he saw the problem I had, it did not take him much time to pin point the root cause.

In this case, one of the cushion springs was broken, and the resonant vibration was felt in the cabin at those rpm ranges. I could even notice it in the lower gears, just that I had to really observe hard. In 5th it was very evident.

Maruti and the dealer workshop replaced the clutch assembly under warranty (as it was a defective product) and that sorted out the problem for me then.. This was about 12k kms back."
Sridhar K is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2014, 16:24   #47
Distinguished - BHPian
 
deetjohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Kochi
Posts: 3,752
Thanked: 6,129 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post
However, the most logical explanation and diagnosis where the issue was resolved was with a member from another forum.
Thank You Sridhar. Hadn't seen your post till now. Clutch is what was mentioned by the mechanic at AutoTeam as well. Even though, the TSM denied any problems with the car whatsoever.

Need to get it changed ASAP. Yes, its much more perceivable in 5th.
deetjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2014, 17:03   #48
Distinguished - BHPian
 
a4anurag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 8,871
Thanked: 11,745 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post
Posting his experience here verbatim.
Thank you Sridhar for a pointer to the root cause of this issue being faced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
Need to get it changed ASAP. Yes, its much more perceivable in 5th.
My SA too says the same thing when I pointed out at the clutch.

Since the explanation points out to a part in the clutch shall get it inspected.

Anurag.
a4anurag is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2014, 21:53   #49
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 42
Thanked: 29 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

A bit hello to everyone on this thread, especially the ones who have been suffering the same vibration issue with their Swifts as I was.

I am really happy to inform you all that after months (seven months to be precise) of feeling my car vibrate itself to pieces my car now feels as good as new. The solution lies in replacing the clutch plate and pressure plate and basically getting the clutch overhauled. This was the solution mentioned by one of the forum members in an earlier reply and it holds true. One small difference was that in my case the issue was caused due to constant bumper to bumper driving in Mumbai and not because of a broken spring. Mumbai traffic conditions caused the clutch to overheat and resulted in uneven wear of the fingers. These unevenly worn fingers then rattled under high load and especially when the engine was producing peak torque.

With the new clutch my car literally runs butter smooth and that all too familiar vibration has been completely eliminated.
Potenza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2014, 09:56   #50
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Trivandrum
Posts: 890
Thanked: 341 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Potenza View Post
Mumbai traffic conditions caused the clutch to overheat and resulted in uneven wear of the fingers. These unevenly worn fingers then rattled under high load and especially when the engine was producing peak torque.
Sometimes the diaphragm spring and the release bearing (throwout bearing) may not be in perfect alignment to each other. In such a case, you can feel the clutch pedal vibration at the moment the bearing comes in contact with the diaphragm spring. (To check this, start the engine, press the clutch and keep it at the position where the free play ends. A perfectly aligned bearing would touch all the fingers of the diaphragm spring equally. If it is not perfectly aligned, only some fingers would be touching the bearing at this position, hence the clutch pedal vibration while rotating.)

High load or slip can only wear out the clutch plate or cause uniform wear to the fingers of the diaphragm spring, it cannot cause uneven wear to the diaphragm spring.

It is very difficult to fix this alignment issue - even if you replace the clutch assembly, the fingers of the diaphragm spring will keep on getting damaged/bent at short intervals (say around 15K kilometers).

Do give us an update after another 15K.

Last edited by jinojohnt : 28th October 2014 at 10:12.
jinojohnt is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2014, 10:59   #51
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 42
Thanked: 29 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

Quote:
Originally Posted by jinojohnt View Post
High load or slip can only wear out the clutch plate or cause uniform wear to the fingers of the diaphragm spring, it cannot cause uneven wear to the diaphragm spring.
I am not too sure what the real reason was and what you are saying could well be true. The reason for the vibration mentioned by me was given by the SA at the dealership. I also forgot to mention that the release bearing was also replaced and hopefully the vibration should not resurface.

Eitherways, since a few other BHPians also had exactly the same problem as mine I think we now have a definitive solution. For the time being at least.
Potenza is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2014, 12:15   #52
Distinguished - BHPian
 
a4anurag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 8,871
Thanked: 11,745 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post
I too have the same issue. I haven't had any time recently to spend with MASS to even show them the problem let alone them diagnose the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
Need to get it changed ASAP. Yes, its much more perceivable in 5th.
Has anyone of you got these cushion springs changed?

Any idea of the cost? Are these springs available at Spare dealers or is it available with the whole clutch set?

Anurag.
a4anurag is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2014, 09:49   #53
BHPian
 
Sridhar K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chennai
Posts: 587
Thanked: 188 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Has anyone of you got these cushion springs changed?

Any idea of the cost? Are these springs available at Spare dealers or is it available with the whole clutch set?

Anurag.
I haven't done anything with it as I had been tied up but from what I heard, the entire clutch assembly has to be replaced. For the 4th and 5th gear, I try to upshift close to 3k RPM so that I avoid driving at 1.9-2.1k rpm in 4th and 5th gear.

On @jinojohnt point, vibration in my car started after 20k kms perhaps indicating an alignment issue causing uneven wear. .

Considering that the issue is prevalent in most Maruti diesels, just wondering if this is a design issue? Raghav, an auto enthusiast who runs the ignite garage in Chennai told me that the issue is very common to most swifts he had driven/serviced. He mentioned that there are two different issues he has seen in the Maruti DDis
a) Juddering/vibration felt on the clutch petal at all gears
b) Resonant vibration issue at peak torque.

The person from the other forum whose clutch was changed sold his car within another 12k kms for us to ask if the issue has come back or not.It would be interesting to ask @potenza's for an update post 15k kms after the clutch change.

Last edited by Sridhar K : 29th October 2014 at 09:53.
Sridhar K is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2014, 10:06   #54
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 42
Thanked: 29 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post
It would be interesting to ask @potenza's for an update post 15k kms after the clutch change.
Sure Sridhar. I have no intention of selling my car for the next few years and will be keeping this thread updated on the progress of my car.
Potenza is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2014, 23:22   #55
BHPian
 
Sridhar K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chennai
Posts: 587
Thanked: 188 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

Finally got to take my juddering issue with MSM Chennai. The mechanic who did the test drive of my vehicle
a) Admitted that the vibration at 2k RPM (peak torque rpm) is due to the cushion spring weakness on the clutch (may not be broken) and seen in most Maruti diesels.
b) The vibration can start any time from 10k kms and depends on various factors like driving style and conditions.
c) Replacing the clutch plate alone would help sort the issue but unless the whole assembly is changed, it may cause juddering issues due to other factors.
d) Even after changing the entire clutch, he stated that the issue is bound to come again after 10-20k based on his experience.
e) Clutch is not covered under warranty and they would charge me for it in case I want the clutch replaced. The total cost would be around 10-12k and it may resurface again after 10-20k. Hence suggested that I live with it as it does not affect anything now.

I heard the same from another person who owns a myTVS garage in Chennai and incidentally is also a owner of a new Dzire VDI. Since he owns a garage, he changed the clutch plate alone which does not cost much but involves a lot of work . He was quoting something close to 3.8-4k with a major chunk for labor to change the clutch plate alone.
Sridhar K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2014, 23:30   #56
Senior - BHPian
 
humyum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Leicester/Mumbai
Posts: 2,265
Thanked: 2,104 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

I have been getting the same vibration in 5th gear since 2500 kilometers in my Swift now, but I am not new to this vibration as intermittently before too I have faced these vibrations. My car is a 2008, 1 lakh 6 thousand kilometers run Swift Diesel.

It starts only in 5th gear for me, neither 3rd, nor 4th. It starts with a slight floor vibration at around 1850 rpm and vanishes at 2000 rpm exact in 5th gear. I have't recently got the time to fix it, but I know what the problem is as I have always managed to get rid of it.

This has happened in my car before too when the car was 75 thousand odd kilometers, before that at 62 thousand kilometers ( the clutch was just 4 thousand kilometers old then as after the ladakh trip, I had got the clutch/pressure plate and flywheel changed). Right now my clutch is around 50 thousand kilometers old.

Let me list out the fixes, it may not necessarily be the clutch.

1) Drain water from the fuel filter, too much water in the filter can cause this.

2) Clean the air filter

3) Get the car on the ramp and check if the exhaust is touching the body. Start from the mounting at the engine end of it, progressing to the mountings on the middle part and finally the end part. Tighten them up and make the mechanic pull the exhaust pipe down if its near to the body.

All this should most probably take care of the floor vibrations that we are facing. It has always for me.
humyum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2014, 23:38   #57
Distinguished - BHPian
 
a4anurag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 8,871
Thanked: 11,745 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

First of all thank you for reporting an update on this issue that a major chunk of owners are facing. This is what I was looking for as my SA too says it better to live with it rather than spending 10K for the replacement!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post
a) Admitted that the vibration at 2k RPM (peak torque rpm) is due to the cushion spring weakness on the clutch (may not be broken) and seen in most Maruti diesels.
Could this be an issue with a particular batch of 'Clutch set'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post
b) The vibration can start any time from 10k kms and depends on various factors like driving style and conditions.
I have started noticing this vibration from 25K onwards IIRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post
d) Even after changing the entire clutch, he stated that the issue is bound to come again after 10-20k based on his experience.
How is that possible? If replacing the clutch set is the answer then it is better to first get the clutch set on the car being opened then keep it beside a new clutch set and compare the 'cushion' springs. If the new one is different then that's the problem source and should not get damaged with usage.

IMO, once a new set is put in place the issue shouldn't repeat if the part is genuine!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post
Hence suggested that I live with it as it does not affect anything now.
This 'living with' IMO is the worst part of the ownership! Paying 8L with a fun-to-drive tag whats the point in driving it the way it shouldn't be!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sending a link of this thread to the customer care @ Maruti Suzuki! Lets see how they respond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
All this should most probably take care of the floor vibrations that we are facing. It has always for me.
Here it is not floor vibration. It is the whole car juddering between 1900-2100 RPM, which incidentally is the peak RPM for torque + turbo spooling. Initially I had suspected the engine mounts nut my SA did have a check on it so ruled it out.

I now have my doubts on the clutch set! Could it be WA/WB?

Anurag.

Last edited by a4anurag : 25th December 2014 at 23:42. Reason: Added a Quote!
a4anurag is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2014, 23:38   #58
BHPian
 
Sridhar K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chennai
Posts: 587
Thanked: 188 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

Quote:
Let me list out the fixes, it may not necessarily be the clutch.

1) Drain water from the fuel filter, too much water in the filter can cause this.

2) Clean the air filter

3) Get the car on the ramp and check if the exhaust is touching the body. Start from the mounting at the engine end of it, progressing to the mountings on the middle part and finally the end part. Tighten them up and make the mechanic pull the exhaust pipe down if its near to the body.
Thanks. You had suggested this earlier as well. I tried the above but was not helpful. In my case, the vibration is exactly between 1900-2K RPM and vanishes after a few seconds while accelerating.

Guess MSIL is happy as they are not replacing it under warranty and making good money out of selling replacement clutches. I can live with it but unable to cruise at 80kmph on 5th gear at all.

Last edited by Sridhar K : 25th December 2014 at 23:40.
Sridhar K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2014, 23:44   #59
Senior - BHPian
 
humyum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Leicester/Mumbai
Posts: 2,265
Thanked: 2,104 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post


Thanks. You had suggested this earlier as well. I tried the above but was not helpful. In my case, the vibration is exactly between 1900-2K RPM and vanishes after a few seconds while accelerating.

Guess MSIL is happy as they are not replacing it under warranty and making good money out of selling replacement clutches. I can live with it but unable to cruise at 80kmph on 5th gear at all.
Hey, I forgot to mention, try asking the MASS to retorque the engine and gearbox mounting nuts too. Just an after thought, see if it makes any difference.

I know what you mean by not being able to drive at 80, I face this problem too while driving these days, its either 90-100 or below around 70. 80 gets the accelerator pedal, floor vibrate a bit which is irritating. Earlier I used to get this srrrrrr sound too like the turbo is sucking in air kinds at 1900-2000 rpm, but that vanished on its own.

Let me get free time one of these days and try the remedies I have mentioned above which work on my car, lets see if they work this time too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post


Here it is not floor vibration. It is the whole car juddering between 1900-2100 RPM, which incidentally is the peak RPM for torque + turbo spooling. Initially I had suspected the engine mounts nut my SA did have a check on it so ruled it out.

I now have my doubts on the clutch set! Could it be WA/WB
Anurag.
No, definitely not alignment/balancing. Did you check everything from the list I had mentioned above ? Fuel filter/airfilter/exhaust mountings?

I have my doubts on the clutch too, sounds kind of impossible. It feels like, when they down the gearbox to fix the clutch set and get the gearbox back in and retorque all the mountings, exhaust below the engine mounting, the problem is vanishing, but I feel its actually the re torquing that is doing the trick rather than the clutch set and people are misunderstanding it to be the clutch.

Last edited by humyum : 25th December 2014 at 23:50.
humyum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2014, 23:47   #60
BHPian
 
Sridhar K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chennai
Posts: 587
Thanked: 188 Times
Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Could this be an issue with a particular batch of 'Clutch set'?
How is that possible? If replacing the clutch set is the answer then it is better to first get the clutch set on the car being opened then keep it beside a new clutch set and compare the 'cushion' springs. If the new one is different then that's the problem source and should not get damaged with usage.

IMO, once a new set is put in place the issue shouldn't repeat if the part is genuine!
Anurag.
Don't know but just wondering if it is appearing in a lot of Maruti diesels and even in replacement clutch sets, is it a design issue. Remember the Ciaz recall issue with the clutches.

My neighbor works for Valeo's clutch division who supplies the clutch to MSIL and have mentioned this to him as well a few times. His response was that there are two suppliers to MSIL for clutches including Valeo and they keep improving the design based on feedback from MSIL but he said that he was not aware of this issue being reported.
Sridhar K is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ford Fusion Clutch Judder sridhar-v Technical Stuff 10 31st March 2012 09:48
Swift Diesel Clutch Judder! humyum Technical Stuff 11 29th June 2011 12:33
04' WagonR - Poor FE, Hard clutch and judder DCEite Technical Stuff 12 30th September 2008 10:17
Judder while downshifting (Safari 2.2) rb2399 Technical Stuff 8 15th May 2008 00:44


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 21:58.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks