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Old 26th December 2014, 00:04   #61
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Originally Posted by humyum View Post

No, definitely not alignment/balancing. Did you check everything from the list I had mentioned above ? Fuel filter/airfilter/exhaust mountings?
Yup, I did check all points on the list but that vibrations persist.

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
I have my doubts on the clutch too, sounds kind of impossible. It feels like, when they down the gearbox to fix the clutch set and get the gearbox back in and retorque all the mountings, exhaust below the engine mounting, the problem is vanishing, but I feel its actually the re torquing that is doing the trick rather than the clutch set and people are misunderstanding it to be the clutch.
Will try re - torquing the books to be doubly sure.

I am double minds whether to replace the clutch set or no.

Anurag.
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Old 26th December 2014, 09:59   #62
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Yup, I did check all points on the list but that vibrations persist.

Will try re - torquing the books to be doubly sure.

I am double minds whether to replace the clutch set or no.

Anurag.
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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post

I have started noticing this vibration from 25K onwards IIRC.

Here it is not floor vibration. It is the whole car juddering between 1900-2100 RPM, which incidentally is the peak RPM for torque + turbo spooling. Initially I had suspected the engine mounts nut my SA did have a check on it so ruled it out.

I now have my doubts on the clutch set! Could it be WA/WB?

Anurag.
Exactly same issue with my 43K run ZDI variant. Have tried every thing except Clutch replacement. It all started after 25K kms.

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Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post
Thanks. You had suggested this earlier as well. I tried the above but was not helpful. In my case, the vibration is exactly between 1900-2K RPM and vanishes after a few seconds while accelerating.

.
Have visited 2 different Maruti Service Masters in Delhi and one MASS. None of them acknowledged this issue. They say that it is absolutely "NORMAL" as engine generates peak torque and hence vibrations
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Old 30th December 2014, 00:47   #63
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

So here goes my 18 kilometer of analysis on the issue and some of the conclusions I drew with respect to my car

While coming back from town (proper bombay) in the later part of the night, I had the entire freeway for myself and I thought of trying out the exact zones and under what conditions the vibrations started and ended.

1) In 4th gear, no vibration at all at any speeds what so ever

2) In 5th gear, they start exactly at 1900 rpm which corresponds to 75-78 on the speedo meter

3) As the RPM nears 2000 and speed increases to 85 kmph and the turbo kick starts, it vibrates for a second or two until the rpm crosses 2050 and speedo needle is at 90

4) Then it behaves like nothing has ever happened and chugs along with the turbo kick until whatever speed you want to take it to.

5) These vibrations are felt by the passenger sitting next to me as well as people sitting behind. My dad said that even without looking at the speedo, he knew what speed I was passing by from. This was because of the vibrations that were creeping in through the floor.

I have concluded that it is 99.99% something in the exhaust which is causing this. Also you can observe when you ramp up your car, the exhaust is not entirely stagnant from moment, even while you shake it with your hand, it moves, the center part as well as the end part. Something is touching the body and causing this.

When I get time, I am going to reach the bottom of this and find a solution to this as rightly said, it takes a lot of ignoring your sensory functions to drive the car @ 80, it either has to be 70 or 90, 80 is not an option.
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Old 30th December 2014, 01:08   #64
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So here goes my 18 kilometer of analysis on the issue and some of the conclusions I drew with respect to my car
Thank you sir for the exact description. This is what I have been experiencing from the past 3 months i.e. from last 10000 kms.

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I have concluded that it is 99.99% something in the exhaust which is causing this.
Can you please explain a bit in detail as to why you feel it is something to do with the exhaust system and not the clutch or something else. Thanks. No offence!

Quote:
it takes a lot of ignoring your sensory functions to drive the car @ 80, it either has to be 70 or 90, 80 is not an option.
80 kmph is such a beautiful speed for cruising, now it is become a pain. Just hate driving it at that speed.

The engineers at MASS are confident that it is a normal vibration which is coming thanks to the 190Nm torque produced and turbo spooling up. Henceforth I decided to chuck these guys and diagnose it myself.

Anurag.
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Old 30th December 2014, 17:02   #65
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

Hello Humyum

Get the flywheel changed from MASS which is resulting in the vibration during that RPM range . I also was experiencing it after 40 K kms on my swift and at around 66 K i got the whole clutch assembly replaced . Reason for clutch replace at 66k kms because i was driving the remapped car since 25 k kms .

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
So here goes my 18 kilometer of analysis on the issue and some of the conclusions I drew with respect to my car

Last edited by bblost : 30th December 2014 at 21:52. Reason: Please avoid quoting large posts in full. Thanks.
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Old 30th December 2014, 20:39   #66
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Thank you sir for the exact description. This is what I have been experiencing from the past 3 months i.e. from last 10000 kms.
Aha, don't worry, we ll find a solution.

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Can you please explain a bit in detail as to why you feel it is something to do with the exhaust system and not the clutch or something else. Thanks. No offence!
Hey, of course. none taken at all.

The sound that accompanies the vibration is like the sound of resonance. I feel it's coming from the exhaust because I can faintly hear it from the front lower part of the car and mildly from the center part of the car.

Try this, see if you hear anything while the vibrations occur. Roll up you windows, shut down all the music and fan and see if you hear anything and pin point the location.

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80 kmph is such a beautiful speed for cruising, now it is become a pain. Just hate driving it at that speed.
I agree, try getting the same feelings for 90 kmph till we find a solution


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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
The engineers at MASS are confident that it is a normal vibration which is coming thanks to the 190Nm torque produced and turbo spooling up. Henceforth I decided to chuck these guys and diagnose it myself.

Anurag.
Well if it was normal, why not it be there since day one ? The 190 Nm was present at day 1 too. They just try to put anything under the rug which they can't be bothered to figure out or use their head for.

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Originally Posted by Safari_Beast View Post
Hello Humyum

Get the flywheel changed from MASS which is resulting in the vibration during that RPM range . I also was experiencing it after 40 K kms on my swift and at around 66 K i got the whole clutch assembly replaced . Reason for clutch replace at 66k kms because i was driving the remapped car since 25 k kms .

Okay, let us analyse this a bit. If the flywheel is indeed the problem, how come the same vibration does not persist in 3rd gear ? or say 4th gear ? I would agree if the vibration did not show itself in 1st and 2nd gear as the rpm rise during those gears is too fast for anyone to notice the vibration, but in 3rd , 4th and 5th its not that fast.

Also, usually dual mass flywheels have this problem of vibrations when the springs in them wear out, in a single mass flywheel, the chances of it happening are there but rare. Also how can it suddenly crop up in so many Swift Diesels as I would agree if some of them are abused with launches and burnouts and what not, causing the flywheel to take a lot of abuse and unbalance itself, but how come so many of us out here.

Also, the flywheel theory does not seem right because how can the flywheel unbalance itself for all of us only at 'this particular rpm' of 1900 to 2000 ? It should vary from car to car as the left foot usage for all of us is different.
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Old 31st December 2014, 10:00   #67
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
1) In 4th gear, no vibration at all at any speeds what so ever

2) In 5th gear, they start exactly at 1900 rpm which corresponds to 75-78 on the speedo meter

3) As the RPM nears 2000 and speed increases to 85 kmph and the turbo kick starts, it vibrates for a second or two until the rpm crosses 2050 and speedo needle is at 90
...
I have concluded that it is 99.99% something in the exhaust which is causing this. Also you can observe when you ramp up your car, the exhaust is not entirely stagnant from moment, even while you shake it with your hand, it moves, the center part as well as the end part. Something is touching the body and causing this.

...
In my case, the vibration is also felt on the 4th gear and very pronounced at 5th. In fact, I demoed the vibration to the SA and the mechanic at 4th gear only as I did not get a stretch to up shift to 5th gear. If there is a resonant vibration due to exhaust touching the body, should it not appear when the car is in neutral or in any gear. I get nil vibration at neutral and increasing vibration from 3 onwards.

Pardon my rusty physics and I may be completely wrong, but in the 3rd and 4th gear at 2k rpm, wouldn't the load on the clutch, flywheel and transmission likely to be different than in 5th gear? Something is not able to handle the mismatch in peak torque produced by the engine at ~2K RPM. my guess is that it is related to transmission or even related to gear box mounting as you suspect and less to do with exhaust touching the body.

It would be interesting to see torque figures through a OBD readers at different gears.
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Old 6th January 2015, 13:08   #68
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post
In my case, the vibration is also felt on the 4th gear and very pronounced at 5th. In fact, I demoed the vibration to the SA and the mechanic at 4th gear only as I did not get a stretch to up shift to 5th gear. If there is a resonant vibration due to exhaust touching the body, should it not appear when the car is in neutral or in any gear. I get nil vibration at neutral and increasing vibration from 3 onwards.

Pardon my rusty physics and I may be completely wrong, but in the 3rd and 4th gear at 2k rpm, wouldn't the load on the clutch, flywheel and transmission likely to be different than in 5th gear? Something is not able to handle the mismatch in peak torque produced by the engine at ~2K RPM. my guess is that it is related to transmission or even related to gear box mounting as you suspect and less to do with exhaust touching the body.

It would be interesting to see torque figures through a OBD readers at different gears.
Sorry for the late reply. I was pondering over your reply as well as trying to find a solution to this issue. So finally, one morning I got time and decided to head to Ravi Automobiles and get many things done to the car to see if the vibrations subsides.

To answer some of the questions, yes load will be different in 5th gear as compared to 4th gear but in a Swift Diesel, 4th and 5th are overdrive ratios so load should be quite high even in 4th too.

I tried accelerating in neutral and I did get a faint shake at the particular rpm in question.

Anyway let me mention the things I did to my car over the weekend.

Since my car is 1 lakh 6 thousand old, I decided to first inspect the mountings and sure enough they were weak, one of them had a tear and so the first thing we replaced are both the engine mountings and one gear box mounting. Expensive fix this, set me back by 4 thousand rupees including labor.

Then I touched the exhaust, the bolts holding the exhaust from its first connection to the headers was loose, that was tightened. Rest everything seemed in order, so I guess you were right about it not being the exhaust.

Next, we proceeded to remove water from the fuel filter (This has been one of the causes of the vibration before). Almost half a liter of water was found in the fuel filter even though it was only 5 thousand kilometers before I had changed it. The two times run to Gujarat and filling from small towns and cities in Gujarat must have had its fair share of adulterated diesel and caused the water to accumulate. Kudos to the car for running on anything and everything and still giving no signs of any power loss or failure.

Anyway, the water was removed, the fuel filter kept to dry and refixed

After going through this entire procedure, I went on a drive to check if the vibration has gone or not.

Well, its 80% gone. If the music system is on and I am not concentrating on the problem, I will never realize now that there is a vibration.

I will run the car for somedays and see if things change.
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Old 6th January 2015, 14:39   #69
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

I think the vibrations experienced by various users on this forum (Humyum, a4anurag, SridharK etc) are pretty much the same vibrations that I had on my swift. From what I have read on this thread, the overall description matches perfectly to my issues.

Its been 4000 km since I got my clutch plate, pressure plate and release bearing changed. Yes 4000 km may not be a good enough yardstick but as on date I am not having any of those vibrations that plagued my car. Moving from 1800 rpm to > 2000 rpm is now a complete breeze.

I am pretty sure as of now that the issue lay with either or all of the three components replaced by me.
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Old 6th January 2015, 14:59   #70
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Since my car is 1 lakh 6 thousand old, I decided to first inspect the mountings

Next, we proceeded to remove water from the fuel filter
Thank you the troubleshooting.

My car has run 33K kms in 1 year, done (1K, 5K, 10K, 20K, 30K services).

--- Do you think the mounting (engine mount and gearbox mounts) would go weak?

--- Will get the water drained from the fuel filter though.

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Originally Posted by Potenza View Post
I think the vibrations experienced by various users on this forum (Humyum, a4anurag, SridharK etc) are pretty much the same vibrations that I had on my swift. From what I have read on this thread, the overall description matches perfectly to my issues.

I am pretty sure as of now that the issue lay with either or all of the three components replaced by me.
Aren't all the three parts which you changed available as a set? Will changing the clutch set solve the issue?

What was the cost for the replacement? Can you give the breakup, please!

Shall get this done under warranty but the issue is the SA and the Service Manager are adamant that this is a common problem with all Swift's.
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Old 6th January 2015, 15:10   #71
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Aren't all the three parts which you changed available as a set? Will changing the clutch set solve the issue?

What was the cost for the replacement? Can you give the breakup, please!

Shall get this done under warranty but the issue is the SA and the Service Manager are adamant that this is a common problem with all Swift's.
I believe the clutch plate and pressure plate are available as a set. The release bearing is not a part of the set and needs to be bought separately.

The work on my car was done under warranty. The approx break up of the parts was as under:

1. Clutch plate and pressure plate ~ Rs. 2,500/-
2. Release bearing ~ Rs. 2,000.
3. Labour charge ~ Nil- since the work was done under warranty.

I will try and retrieve the copy of the bill and put up the exact part numbers and prices, but I am pretty sure that the amounts I have mentioned above are more or less accurate.

This does seem to be a very common problem on the Swift DDIS. I am just checking if there is a way to get this to the attention of the MSIL technical guys.

Yes, to answer your question, the vibration on my Swift has been completely eliminated post the Clutch replacement. No vibrations now at the dreaded 1800~2000 rpm

Last edited by Potenza : 6th January 2015 at 15:12. Reason: Added more information
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Old 13th January 2015, 13:01   #72
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

Once again, I spoke to the owner of Bhagavathy Auto works (My TVS) in Chennai, who owns a Dzire Vdi and services quite a lot of cars. The owner is an enthusiast himself. He had replaced the clutch plate once on his dzire and the vibration vanished but for it to appear again after 25K kms. He is now living with it.

I had question him on whether the re-torqing during replacement is doing the trick (as humyun suspected)or whether the plate is the problem. He replied that

a) He had tried retorqing without success before changing the clutch plate and
b) He said that if one takes the clutch plate in the hand and shake it lightly, he/she can feel the cushion spring vibrate, kind of indicating that it is the culprit.

From what I infer from another source, MSIL sources clutch plates from Valeo primarily and LUK in some cases. All the clutched worked by Bhagavathy auto works have been from Valeo.
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Old 13th January 2015, 15:41   #73
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I'm also on the verge of getting the clutch changed. Driving the car is horrible now a days. Have shot a mail to Maruti Suzuki along with the link of this thread.

Trying to get warranty to favour the parts change.

Can someone list out what all needs to be changed along with the approx costs for this job?
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Old 23rd January 2015, 21:55   #74
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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
If the music system is on and I am not concentrating on the problem, I will never realize now that there is a vibration.
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Originally Posted by Sridhar K View Post
a) He had tried retorqing without success before changing the clutch plate and
b) He said that if one takes the clutch plate in the hand and shake it lightly, he/she can feel the cushion spring vibrate, kind of indicating that it is the culprit.
To all three of you, here is an update. I am going to Bosch service centre tomorrow to open up and check the clutch plates + cushion springs on my car.

They have said it is 2-3 hour job. If the springs seen fine then ok else will buy a new clutch set from the MGP dealer and replace it tomorrow.

Shall update the thread ASAP.

BTW, Any pointers for the work?

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Originally Posted by Potenza View Post
I believe the clutch plate and pressure plate are available as a set. The release bearing is not a part of the set and needs to be bought separately.
You are right,

Clutch plate + pressure plate = 3100
Release bearing = 3000.

What MGP dealer days is the clutch and pressure plate are the most that is replaced as compared to the bearings. Generally the release bearings have a good life and don't wear out quick.

Most of the Swift owners change the clutch plate + pressure plate.

In my case the clutch and pressure plate along with the cushion springs shall be checked for its health tomorrow.

Excited and nervous too.
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Old 8th February 2015, 14:23   #75
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Default Re: Some issues (clutch judder, vibrations etc.) with my new Swift ZDi

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Excited and nervous too.
Did you take the car to Bosch and get it checked ? I went on a nice long drive recently and my car only has this vibration between 1700rpm to 2000 rpm. Cruising at 80 wasn't a problem IIRC,though I cant be sure since I was driving around 90-100 most of the times.
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