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Old 20th September 2012, 18:18   #1
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Angry '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

This is in regard to my Complaint No. 1-16751433531 with Tata Motors.

We are a proud owner of Tata Vista model Quadrajet Aura, with Registration No. UP14 AV 9756 since Feb 2009.

We were so happy with the vehicle that we became a strong supporter of TATA cars and always recommending in our friends circle of leading software technocrats, engineers, business men and like-minded people to go only for a quality, value-for-money product – a car from TATA.

We had taken an extended warranty for 2 years. Other than the TATA car & quality, we were lucky to have a caring Service provider M/s Urmil Motors, Ghaziabad, who are always ready to listen & solve our small problems by offering quick, efficient and reliable service. Above all these factors, TATA has a very good call centre doing regular cross check up and collecting data for any service complaints. They used to call up at regular intervals, checking up the status of any complaints.

In all these 2 years we had only minor service calls.

But all of a sudden, a few days back, our car started emitting black smoke and suffered loss of power. We have given the car to M/s Urmil Motors, Ghaziabad vide Job Work dated 23-7-2012 for servicing. To our shock we are told that engine needs to be changed/overhauled costing a fortune. To convince us, they attempted by showing two small rubber hose pipes by lifting the car and explained the criticality of same causing the engine damage .

In light of above, following is my submission:
1. The vehicle is in good exterior condition and has never met an accident in its service life.
2. The Vehicle is covered under valid extended warranty.
3. The vehicle has been serviced apropos Service Schedule from Tata Authorized Service Centre.
4. I have strictly followed the Owner’s Manual for Cautions and Precautions, whereby there is no mention of visual check by owner of these critical hoses which may lead to engine damage.
5. The instrument cluster of the Vehicle has no indicator warning of any engine damage till date.

Urmil Motors, Ghaziabad, the service station and Mr. Abhishek Jangda, the Customer Relationship Manager from Tata Motors have been very nice and friendly but failed to convince me how dust got into the engine and how was it my fault.

Tata Motors has agreed to compensate Rs. 20,000/- as “goodwill gesture”.

My questions to Tata Motors here are:

1. The reply they/GAS is giving is unconvincing and standard.
2. I would like to reiterate that I have had strict adherence to service schedules and periodicity for the vehicle which can be verified in the ERP system.
3. How could the rubber hose as displayed by the service supervisor get damaged when there is no access to it? It is a clear case of bad product design/poor quality.
4. There is no mention of visual inspection by the Owner in Manual for this critical component for dust entry/cracks etc.
5. If it is so critical then there should be an alarm to indicate the damage to the pipe. Why did the CHECK ENGINE light not go on in the dashboard? Why is there no LED or light in the dashboard like for high temperature, low fuel or low oil?
6. Replacement/Inspection of this critical component is not mentioned in the Service Manual.

Vista, it seems, has a design fault. The Intercooler is located inside front bumper and it has very less ground clearance at this section. There is possibility that bumper scraps at speed breakers, which increases possibility of intercooler damage. In any case, I am not in sync with the standard reply from GAS. Request someone from TATA/GAS to please convince me technically. Simply shrugging off shoulders is not done, I will not accept this design flaw, the damages have to be compensated by Tata Motors.

Further, the car has been stationed at the service station since past 2 months and I am having a hard time without the vehicle.
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Old 20th September 2012, 19:27   #2
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Default re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

Hi,

In all probability, the problem lies in turbo plumbing. I see no chance for an engine over haul so quick, for a vehicle is maintained as per company recommendation.

DO NOT GIVE IN. Please seek the advice of another A.S.S
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Old 20th September 2012, 20:03   #3
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Default re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

You mentioned about TATA's excellent customer care service. How about escalating this issue to them? They can easily verify the vehicle's service history from the ERP. Furthermore, there is probably a higher chance that the TATA guys can recognize this technical fault (if there is one) that the ASC guys. And in that case, I presume you may not have such a hard time to get your car repaired.

Thinking along other lines though, the ASC just cannot shrug responsibility off their shoulders. If you think you have a strong enough case, it might be a good idea to consult a lawyer and get his opinion. After all, the cost of overhauling/replacing an engine is considerable, and specially if it warrants a replacement, then I think 20k should not account for much. In this scenario, it might be worth taking the legal route.

On another thought, how about getting the car diagnosed from another dealership/ASC? The technicians at Urmil Motors might be missing something, or it may be an attempt of their's to fleece a customer, who, as they must have known by now, really cares a lot about his car and would hence probably give in to the con. For all you know, the issue might be minor and something that can be fixed in a jiffy. I say this especially since no warning has come before this, no check engine light, etc.

Do keep us updated about what happens. All the best.
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Old 20th September 2012, 22:09   #4
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Default re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

Have you been in touch with TATA other than complaining? I suggest you should contact Area managers and top management of TATA and put forward your case. If your car is covered in extended warranty, TATA should take the responsibility of damage, as it is not caused by any negligence from your side. If this does not work, Consumer Court is the way to go.
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Old 20th September 2012, 23:36   #5
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Default re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

I have some confusion- are they knocking 20k off the bill, or are they actually giving you 20k and doing the work for free?

I suppose identifying exactly which those two hoses are might make the picture clearer. If they are coolant pipes, then your (car's) head might be damaged, justifying the engine overhaul diagnosis.
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Old 20th September 2012, 23:42   #6
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Default re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

It is a problem with the Engine (which incidentally is a FIAT, just like the Swift and a number of other Indian Cars). Lets not be quick to blame Tata.
I think you must take a second opinion. It seems to be a Turbo issue where the exhaust gases are not reaching the turbo spool. Get the hose replaced. Dont worry, if it was an IC problem the turbo would have made weird noises! Check if you get the typical turbo whine at about 1750-2500 RPM, if not, my diagnosis will hold true. I do accept checks
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Old 20th September 2012, 23:56   #7
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Default re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

I am assuming that you have already escalated to tata customer support, and have talked to one of their regional managers.

If this is not working out, to be honest, I'm not sure if there is any other point of escalation other than consumer court.

Can you share the amount that was quoted for repairs?

From what you have mentioned, it seems they are claiming that some damage was done, and that the extended warranty does not cover that, and hence denying your claim. While I dont say that it was indeed due to damage, if it were, would be possible to claim insurance for this damage? Whatever happened, it should be due to accidental, or non accidental causes. If its the former, insurance should cover it, and if its the latter, extended warranty should, right?
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Old 21st September 2012, 14:39   #8
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Default Re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kapursaket View Post
How could the rubber hose as displayed by the service supervisor get damaged when there is no access to it?
Tata better cover your repairs under extended warranty. If the rubber hose has failed and that caused the engine damage, it's clearly their fault at the manufacturing level.

I have first-hand experience with the "2 rupee" rubber pipes that Tata uses in its cars. My <40,000 kms 3 year old Indigo had a massive diesel leak because the fuel pipe gave way. When Sunil Shanbagh (a revered independent mechanic from Mumbai) inspected the pipes, he was aghast at the shoddy quality used by Tata. To call the pipes JUNK would be a compliment.

'09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!-14102010416.jpg
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Old 21st September 2012, 14:56   #9
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Default Re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I have first-hand experience with the "2 rupee" rubber pipes that Tata uses in its cars. My <40,000 kms 3 year old Indigo had a massive diesel leak because the fuel pipe gave way. When Sunil Shanbagh (a revered independent mechanic from Mumbai) inspected the pipes, he was aghast at the shoddy quality used by Tata. To call the pipes JUNK would be a compliment.

Attachment 989835
had the same problem when my indica hit 5 years. Though it was leaking like crazy, the car still worked thankfully!
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2782591
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Old 21st September 2012, 15:10   #10
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Default Re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

How can turbo plumbing leaks cause engine damage to such a large extent that the engine needs to be overhauled/replaced? Something doesn't smell right.

@Kapursaket - Would it be possible for you to get photos of the two pipes which the service center is blaming for the engine troubles?
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Old 21st September 2012, 18:31   #11
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RM2488 View Post
I have some confusion- are they knocking 20k off the bill, or are they actually giving you 20k and doing the work for free?

I suppose identifying exactly which those two hoses are might make the picture clearer. If they are coolant pipes, then your (car's) head might be damaged, justifying the engine overhaul diagnosis.
Sir it is Good Will gesture offered by the A.S.S and he has offered the 20K discount on the Total Bill of Hundred Thousand.

The Pipe is the one which connects exhaust gas manifold to the impeller side of the Turbo Charger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
How can turbo plumbing leaks cause engine damage to such a large extent that the engine needs to be overhauled/replaced? Something doesn't smell right.

@Kapursaket - Would it be possible for you to get photos of the two pipes which the service center is blaming for the engine troubles?


Sir you are correct and logical but the A.S.S and TATA endorsed version says that owing to some damage in this pipe, dust has been sucked by the engine and Turbo Charger is jammed. Now they need to over haul the engine and change the turbo charger. My following plea based on my Engineering back ground and discussions with auto experts is going on deaf ears.

1.If The Turbo charger inlet pipe got damaged and it sucked in dust along with exhaust gases on the impeller side the how did the dust enter the compressor side when both are separated by a firewall?
2.The car is emitting black smoke and not white or grey as is the case when the engine oil starts burning owing to incresed clearance between the cylinder and oil scraping rings.
3.Why there is no warning lamp provided by the Tata on the instrument panel as a warning that this pipe is damaged?

Logically the goofup is at the A.S.S end and they want to make quick money at the cost of Customer.

Last edited by Eddy : 22nd September 2012 at 23:13. Reason: Please use the edit / multiquote option instead of posting back to back posts within 30 mins on the same thread. Thanks.
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Old 21st September 2012, 18:58   #12
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Default Re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

Even if the turbo charger is completely jammed up, it cannot engine failure. Have they removed the turbo? If they have, can you go there and check if it is actually jammed? It if it is then you will be able to tell on which side it is jammed just by looking at it.

What exactly is the damage to the exhaust manifold pipe?

Please photograph all the supposedly damaged components and post them here.
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Old 21st September 2012, 18:58   #13
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Default Re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

If you are sure its the exhaust manifold to the impeller of the turbo then the service center is taking you for a massive ride. All you have to do is replace the worn out pipe and you should be good to go. To see whether you need to overhaul the engine just remove the oil dip stick and also open the oil filler cap and check for blow bye when the engine is hot and running in idle. If blow bye or compression leak is not there you have nothing to worry about. If the smoking has been there for more than 500km you might require a clean up of your catalytic converter and nothing more.

Knowing the antics of TATA first hand with my Junkindica and the ongoing case of 11 years in the consumer court I suggest you take it to an independent mechanic for his inputs.
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Old 21st September 2012, 19:02   #14
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Default Re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

Not a very technical reply but nonetheless, could it be possible that the damage to the turbo inlet pipe have happened at the service center. As you said that you had the car for 2 years and you had serviced it regularly, then obviously any such aforementioned damaged wouldn't have gone unnoticed by the technicians.

You said, you faced this issue a few days back when you promptly sent the car to TASS. Thus an extensive damage as claimed by service adviser isn't sounding true. Do take this up and refuse to pay any money for such a defect.

Out of curiosity, if you opened the bonnet regularly to top up washer fluid, didn't you notice any damage?
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Old 21st September 2012, 19:12   #15
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Default Re: '09 Tata Vista Quadrajet - Engine Damaged!

The Service adviser at T.A.S.S is reiterating the problem of back pressure from the engine which eventually may spoil the new turbocharger if not resolved at this stage. I fail to understand the back pressure being mentioned by him through the smoke coming from the oil dip stick. An independent view is that this smoke emanating from the dip stick hole is nothing but burning of the oil seeping from the defective turbocharger into the combustion chamber along with air suction!
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