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Old 1st October 2012, 20:02   #1
CDM
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Default Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

Just when I thought that I would be posting about my blissful experience with my Innova something had to happen.

Couple of days back my 2007 Innova, which has 112K km on the odometer, threw up a warning light, just after the first start of the morning, which went off after some time. The warning light re-appeared after the first start over the next couple of days but went off every time within a few seconds. I also noticed an increased clatter from the engine after the start of the morning but the engine settled down within a couple of seconds.

Taking her to the dealer revealed the below mentioned two Diagnostic Trouble Codes the scanner:
P0088 – Fuel Rail / System Pressure – Too High
P0093 – Fuel System leak detected – Large Leak
The dealer informed me that the error codes indicate a malfunctioning fuel pump, which will have to be replaced. Prima facie, this diagnosis appeared correct as the fuel pressure appears to be fluctuating (the fuel leak error indicating a drop in pressure).

Now comes the scary part – the fuel pump costs Rs. 80,000 – that’s 8% of the invoice value of the car! Needless to mention the pressure of my blood pump started fluctuating on hearing the cost!

The dealer then offered a refurbished pump from Denso (I would have to hand over the one removed by car) for about Rs. 40,000. They claimed that they replaced many such pumps and that Denso provided a six month / 10K km warranty but did not have any documents to back up this claim).

So I now have the following options:

Option 1 – Go for a new pump for about Rs. 80,000.
Pros: Well, it is a new pump so will hopefully last long.
Cons: The price (although I am not sure and want to check from Toyota)

Option 2 – Go for the Denso refurbished one.
Pros: Lower cost.
Cons: Not sure if the dealer is being honest. I do not believe that Toyota would allow the dealer to obtain and sell refurbished fuel pumps – just does not match with their philosophy but who knows.

Option 3 – Buy a fuel pump from a scrap market like the one at Meerut.
Pros: Lowest cost.
Cons: Can never be sure of the condition although my trusted local mechanic for the past more than 20 years has a contact there through whom he has promised to procure a ‘genuine’ one if I am interested.

Option 4 – Have the pump refurbished myself.
Pros: Possibly low cost.
Cons: As yet, unable to locate someone who refurbishes Innova fuel pumps.

Option 5 – Hell with the pump – replace the car.
Pros: New Car .
Cons: Lots of money to loose. No other problem till date with the Innova.

My queries for my fellow bhpians are:

(i) Has anyone experienced such a problem? (I could not find any thread or posts on this issue)
(ii) What could have caused this? (The dealer says that bad fuel quality can cause this –my car has been all over the country from Ladakh to the Rann of Kutch.)
(iii) Could a timing belt change have caused this? (The timing belt was changed at the last service)
(iv) Finally, what should I do?

All and any suggestions are welcome.

CDM
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Old 1st October 2012, 20:40   #2
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

Fuel pump for 80K... i find it difficult to believe; mostly pumps are BOSCH and not more than 15K; My merc fuel pump was for 9K+ labour

check outside prices first
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Old 2nd October 2012, 12:19   #3
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

Check who is the manufacturer(should be marked on the pump) and then give it to them for repair, Lucas or Bosch, they have their service providers in every major city.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 12:37   #4
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDM View Post
P0088 – Fuel Rail / System Pressure – Too High
P0093 – Fuel System leak detected – Large Leak
Large leak but rail pressure too high? Contradictory... Someone needs to take a second look at this.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 2nd October 2012 at 12:38.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 15:25   #5
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadu View Post
Check who is the manufacturer(should be marked on the pump) and then give it to them for repair, Lucas or Bosch, they have their service providers in every major city.
The manufacturer as stated is Denso. It is part of the Toyota group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Large leak but rail pressure too high? Contradictory... Someone needs to take a second look at this.
Not contradictory. Rail pressure can be low because of a large leak.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 16:58   #6
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

The best bet is to either get the fuel-pump repaired from the company that manufactures it (Denso/Bosch) or simply get a price from aftermarket & get it replaced from a competent garage that's not an A.S.S

Some times, I ponder if the old generation diesels (non-CRDI) were really better in terms of reliability. And even if they weren't, they were surely much easier to repair, both in terms of costs as well as complexity.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 17:23   #7
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

Denso has their factory in bangalore and AFAIK they do sell their pumps on the open market. If so, ensure you get an original piece matching the specs and have it replaced. It should solve the problem.

The mostly likely cause of a fuel pump going is bad fuel quality, though there are other more remote possibilities. For example the voltage out of your battery fluctuating, though would affect other electrical items as well, and perhaps more pertinently leaving the vehicle key in the on position without starting the vehicle (a lot of people do this at traffic lights when they switch off their cars).
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Old 2nd October 2012, 19:37   #8
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

I think that apart from fuel pump, they are planning to change the entire fuel rail assembly ( IIRC, you can change the assembly of common rail and fuel pump individually in Innova ), and hence the high pressure piping is the additional cost. By no means can this part cost Rs. 80K.

Get another dealer on the work, may be from another city who is also competitor to your current dealer. This way, the competitor would like to have you as a customer and expand his existing client base. To the best of my knowledge, the part would not cost more than Rs. 15K+ labor.

One thing to confirm is that a lot of parts in Innova are imported, like the headlight bulbs. Just confirm is the fuel pump is also imported or sourced locally from Denso India.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 20:48   #9
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
Not contradictory. Rail pressure can be low because of a large leak.
I understand that... but how would a large leak make the rail pressure go UP!? Laws of physics being stood on their head?
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Old 2nd October 2012, 20:52   #10
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadu View Post
Check who is the manufacturer(should be marked on the pump) and then give it to them for repair, Lucas or Bosch, they have their service providers in every major city.
The manufacturer is Denso.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Large leak but rail pressure too high? Contradictory... Someone needs to take a second look at this.
Yup. Sure is contradictory. Thats why I feel that the dealer is right when he says that the pump pressure is erratic (but could be control valve or something).

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
The manufacturer as stated is Denso. It is part of the Toyota group.
Denso appears to have many subsidiaries in India. On their website http://www.denso.co.in/densoservicenetwork.aspx there is a mention of service centers, including for common rail systems. Will check them out tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
Not contradictory. Rail pressure can be low because of a large leak.
High pressure (not low) and leak are contradictory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
The best bet is to either get the fuel-pump repaired from the company that manufactures it (Denso/Bosch) or simply get a price from aftermarket & get it replaced from a competent garage that's not an A.S.S

Some times, I ponder if the old generation diesels (non-CRDI) were really better in terms of reliability. And even if they weren't, they were surely much easier to repair, both in terms of costs as well as complexity.
Thanks. Am checking with Denso. I guess a pump failure at 112K km cannot be termed as unreliable unless you compare with other Innovas that are going strong at twice the odometer reading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pganapathy View Post
Denso has their factory in bangalore and AFAIK they do sell their pumps on the open market. If so, ensure you get an original piece matching the specs and have it replaced. It should solve the problem.

The mostly likely cause of a fuel pump going is bad fuel quality, though there are other more remote possibilities. For example the voltage out of your battery fluctuating, though would affect other electrical items as well, and perhaps more pertinently leaving the vehicle key in the on position without starting the vehicle (a lot of people do this at traffic lights when they switch off their cars).
I do not believe I have ever kept the key in the on position. I am an AC addict and cannot seem to keep it off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
I think that apart from fuel pump, they are planning to change the entire fuel rail assembly ( IIRC, you can change the assembly of common rail and fuel pump individually in Innova ), and hence the high pressure piping is the additional cost. By no means can this part cost Rs. 80K.

Get another dealer on the work, may be from another city who is also competitor to your current dealer. This way, the competitor would like to have you as a customer and expand his existing client base. To the best of my knowledge, the part would not cost more than Rs. 15K+ labor.

One thing to confirm is that a lot of parts in Innova are imported, like the headlight bulbs. Just confirm is the fuel pump is also imported or sourced locally from Denso India.
Thanks. I do not think the dealer mentioned changing anything other than the pump but will check.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 02:36   #11
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

With fluctuation fuel pressures, It does seem like a fuel pump issue. What I'd suggest is:

Check the make of the pump. For example, if its bosch, then go to the dedicated workshop, and get the pump serviced. Should not cost much.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 15:40   #12
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDM View Post
Just when I thought that I would be posting about my blissful experience with my Innova something had to happen.

Couple of days back my 2007 Innova, which has 112K km on the odometer, threw up a warning light, just after the first start of the morning, which went off after some time. The warning light re-appeared after the first start over the next couple of days but went off every time within a few seconds. I also noticed an increased clatter from the engine after the start of the morning but the engine settled down within a couple of seconds.

Taking her to the dealer revealed the below mentioned two Diagnostic Trouble Codes the scanner:
P0088 – Fuel Rail / System Pressure – Too High
P0093 – Fuel System leak detected – Large Leak
The dealer informed me that the error codes indicate a malfunctioning fuel pump, which will have to be replaced. Prima facie, this diagnosis appeared correct as the fuel pressure appears to be fluctuating (the fuel leak error indicating a drop in pressure).

Now comes the scary part – the fuel pump costs Rs. 80,000 – that’s 8% of the invoice value of the car! Needless to mention the pressure of my blood pump started fluctuating on hearing the cost!

The dealer then offered a refurbished pump from Denso (I would have to hand over the one removed by car) for about Rs. 40,000. They claimed that they replaced many such pumps and that Denso provided a six month / 10K km warranty but did not have any documents to back up this claim).

So I now have the following options:

Option 1 – Go for a new pump for about Rs. 80,000.
Pros: Well, it is a new pump so will hopefully last long.
Cons: The price (although I am not sure and want to check from Toyota)

Option 2 – Go for the Denso refurbished one.
Pros: Lower cost.
Cons: Not sure if the dealer is being honest. I do not believe that Toyota would allow the dealer to obtain and sell refurbished fuel pumps – just does not match with their philosophy but who knows.

Option 3 – Buy a fuel pump from a scrap market like the one at Meerut.
Pros: Lowest cost.
Cons: Can never be sure of the condition although my trusted local mechanic for the past more than 20 years has a contact there through whom he has promised to procure a ‘genuine’ one if I am interested.

Option 4 – Have the pump refurbished myself.
Pros: Possibly low cost.
Cons: As yet, unable to locate someone who refurbishes Innova fuel pumps.

Option 5 – Hell with the pump – replace the car.
Pros: New Car .
Cons: Lots of money to loose. No other problem till date with the Innova.

My queries for my fellow bhpians are:

(i) Has anyone experienced such a problem? (I could not find any thread or posts on this issue)
(ii) What could have caused this? (The dealer says that bad fuel quality can cause this –my car has been all over the country from Ladakh to the Rann of Kutch.)
(iii) Could a timing belt change have caused this? (The timing belt was changed at the last service)
(iv) Finally, what should I do?

All and any suggestions are welcome.

CDM


The Fuel Injection System on Toyota Innova is of Denso make. The system is very rugged and does withstand the fuel quality as available in India. I personally seen Innovas run for more than 4 lakh kms.

Yes adulterated or bad quality of fuel does cause the system to wear prematurely.

Now the Check Engine light episode is one off or you are facing the issue every morning ?
Does your engine take time to race for the first time in the morning ? is there any delay ?
How long it has been you have changed your Diesel filter ? Clogged Diesel Filter can also give you the Rail pressure code.





Once the vehicle starts are you feeling any loss of power or excess smoke (blue/white)

The chances of failure of FIP in any common rail engine is rare. Mostly the injectors are at fault if they give excessive back leakage.

If your friendly mechanic allows you please replace the injectors with that of some other vehicle and try out. I think the probable cause is more of Injectors then the Pump.

Keep me updated

Samir

Last edited by CRDIsamir : 3rd October 2012 at 15:41.
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Old 4th October 2012, 16:52   #13
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDM View Post
Just when I thought that I would be posting about my blissful experience with my Innova something had to happen.

Couple of days back my 2007 Innova, which has 112K km on the odometer, threw up a warning light, just after the first start of the morning, which went off after some time............

CDM
Hi CDM,

This happened to my Innova(G4) at 67K kms. The error code was

"Fuel Rail / System Pressure – Too High". Did not make a note of the error code number. Remember seeing it in the scanner.
Not sure if I got the other error code.

I was quoted around 93K for the fuel pump and the issue was assumed to be due to adulterated fuel.
Yes! Adulterated fuel leads to preamature failure of the pumps, whatsoever be the quality/make is.
The dealer did a good job and replaced the fuel pump with a refurbished one by DENSO. Replacement date was around (Aug 2011). Traded my old pump for 47K and paid 43 K including the labour. This was done by Lanson motors in Chennai.(got discounts since I knew the PRO).

The main issue is that the car would run fine with the Fuel pump problem however you will miss the timings. I replaced it and my car has now run 87K. No issues till now "Touchwood".
Got the same explanation from the dealer that it has been done in other Innova's and they provide a 10K / 6 Month warranty. Till now, the car is fine and no problem with the pump.

I would say, the Innova is trouble free car(as far as my ownership is concerned) and suggest you to replace the pump and get going.

If still not satisfied, try visiting another dealer for a second opinion.

Rgds,
Karthik

Last edited by Jack Sparrow : 4th October 2012 at 16:57. Reason: typo
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Old 9th November 2012, 21:35   #14
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

All,

First, a sincere apology for not responding to the posts on the thread. Had to travel and then fell ill; hence the delay.

Took the car to Abhi Auto Service, the Denso Repair Centre at Delhi, sometime back. They put their scanner and the same codes came up.

The fuel pump and injectors were then dismantled and tested on their bench equipment. The fuel pump and one injector came up faulty. The fuel pump was replaced with a refurbished one (~Rs. 18,000) and an injector (~Rs. 18,000) was replaced. I was informed by Abhi Auto that the cost of a refurbished pump is ~Rs. 18,000 or ~Rs. 32,000 depending upon the condition of the pump being handed over to them. Mine was apparently in not so bad a condition and could therefore have been refurbished at a lower cost (a smaller kit is apparently required). They also mentioned that Denso does not permit them to sell new complete pumps and these have to be procured through Toyota only.

Total cost including labour for dismantling and putting back was ~Rs. 32,000.

The car has been running fine since then. The pickup and vibration level has improved. Just took the car to Shimla and she started on the first crank after being parked for 3 days.

My take out from the situation: Do not trust the dealer and do have the vehicle checked from the component manufacturer’s outlet, if possible. In my case the dealer wanted to supply a refurbished pump for ~Rs. 38,000. Even assuming that my pump was in a bad condition, the dealer would have only paid ~Rs. 32,000 to Abhi Auto and pocketed the rest. By the way, just when I was at Abhi Auto a person came from the dealer with about 5 pumps for refurbishing.
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Old 10th November 2012, 01:24   #15
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Default re: Fuel pump / fuel system issue?

Alls well that ends well and thats a pretty enlightening experience for everyone. Thanks for sharing.
OTOH, I'm not sure captain Jack Sparrow is going to be too pleased about being ripped off by the Toyota Stealers.
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