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Old 9th October 2012, 17:51   #31
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Default Re: Engine Vibration & Rattling in VW Polo TDI 2012

Polo uses Synthetic oil right? That alone would come to around 4K fr 4 litres I think? Have seen such bills in the Polo review threads. Anyways the video is horrifying. It looks like th engine will fall down the next second. Ask them to replace the mounts in warranty or if needed the engine
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Old 10th October 2012, 14:18   #32
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Default Re: Engine Vibration & Rattling in VW Polo TDI 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neugal View Post
Dear All

I bought new VW Polo TDI made in India on Jan 17, 2012. And from beginning I am facing a problem. When I do first start in the morning it will create loud noise and will vibrate a lot as if some nut-bolt is missing from the engine bed. In addition to it two icon will come up on instrument cluster. One coil type (fault in engine management system) and other for fault in catalytic converter.
I have taken it to workshop many times and they have even changed all the three fuel injectors replaced however my problem is still not solved yet. Also when I face this problem the rpm fluctuates and goes above 1400 rpm which used to be around 900 rpm when vehicle is running ok. I want to know what exactly is the problem?
Hi Neugal,
this is definitely a selective injector being shutting off. if one or two injectors are shutoff, you will have this behavior. from the video, its running on either two or only one pot. and the blinking heater plug indicator says the glow plugs are having a failure.
check the injector harness for any short circuit to battery or the ground or loose contacts.
the rpm raises because of limp home mode and limp home is caused because of injector failure(again not the hardware failure but electrical failure of injector). this could be one reason.
also change the glow plugs as one of the plug is kaput. if your problem persists only during cold start, then it is heater system failure. it will be indicated by blinking the, coil like icon through out engine running.
please check if your car is equipped with glow plugs. i assume the 1.2tdi comes with glow plugs, if not the blinking of the same is to indicate the combustion failure in some vehicles.

Last edited by star_aqua : 10th October 2012 at 14:35.
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Old 10th October 2012, 15:08   #33
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Default Re: Engine Vibration & Rattling in VW Polo TDI 2012

My tuner who has worked with different OEM's (engine calibration is his field) came across this thread as either Neugal or his friend posted this on my tuners facebook. Below is his analysis and opinion (arrived in a mail) which matches star_aqua. Posting here since he is not a member and I too feel this will benefit the OP in his quest for a resolution of the issue.

Dear Abhinav,
I came across this post on our facebook page about a gentleman in Delhi facing a problem on his Polo 1.2 TDi. I doubt if my response to the post ever reached him on facebook. Perhaps you could get this bit across to him.

The engine appears to be running on 2 cylinders. One Cylinder's Injector/Injector Wiring has a problem and the error (short circuit/open load etc.) has been registered by the ECU which in turn triggered the Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL). The RPM-Setpoint is also fixed above normal Idle (activated by the ECU as a standard pre-programmed reaction as per the Diagnosis Management calibrated by VW).

The Glow lamp system failure/error is probably a consequence of an issue in the Wiring Harness but definitely not the cause of all that engine shake. The ECU would have probably registered the same error (Injector related error code) earlier and thats why the Dealership changed the Injectors without investigating further.

Since the issue persists, its worth checking the Wiring Harness. I am not clear if this issue is incessant or appears intermittently, especially in the morning? Does he take it to the Dealership and get the MIL cleared? Does the problem get rectified sometimes on its own, which would give strength to the 'Wiring harness issue' theory because the portion of the problematic Cabling (short or no continuity) might be sitting properly? But for such a case the MIL should not go OFF on its own, atleast not for the first driving cycle (defined by the ECU SW as time between One key ON and OFF) because such an error is under the software's critical list and OEMs usually want the driver to come to the service center for a check.

For less critical errors usually Self-Healing (erase MIL automatically) is initiated once the SW sees that the issue no longer exists. Of course, that is a separate story as to why the dealerships don't have adequate training to deal with such matters. Or perhaps, some times they do, they just don't care enough to make a good and complete job of it. I expect this engine behaviour to be exhibited especially in the morning or the first engine start of the day. My understanding of this is- Cold Engine hence more vibration due to the higher internal friction affects the weak link in the Loom. This can happen at any point of time in the day but can almost surely happen at the first engine start.

The faulty cylinder's Injector/Injector Wiring can be checked immediately with a quick Morse Test (pull out the injector connectors one by one) by the owner himself when this problem occurs, (ONLY WHEN THE PROBLEM OCCURS) otherwise he will trigger the MIL this time when he removes the connector.

Problems with Engine Mounts and Compression leaks are not monitored by the ECU hence the MIL cannot be triggered for such problems. Perhaps such 'Parameter Monitoring' may be enabled for certain cars abroad but certainly not in any of the local applications i have seen, including the VW 1.2. Though I have seen Knock Sensors incorporated in certain Diesel Engine Blocks (dont know about the 1.2), I am not sure if this kind of severe vibration can be interpreted by the ECU as an engine knock and activate the MIL, Error reaction (1200 RPM) etc.

Usually the Sensor's input is used as a correction to the Injection Control, I dont think it is calibrated to activate the MIL. I doubt it especially since the Dealership changed the Injectors promptly. They would have definately seen an Injector issue via the Diagnostics Machine (Tester/scanner).

Last edited by abhinav.s : 10th October 2012 at 15:13.
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Old 11th October 2012, 18:49   #34
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Default Re: Engine Vibration & Rattling in VW Polo TDI 2012

Dear All
Thanks for all your supports and probable resolutions for my problem on the basis of your experience.
I got the delivery of my car today and they said that they have replaced the ECU in my car. That was the reason why the car was not running well. Actually faulty ecu was not able to control the amount of fuel that should go. So finally it seems my problem is solved also I drove the car today around 120 km, Delhi to Greater Noida and its running well just like ....makhhan maar ke
If anything goes wrong then I will post again or else I would say over and out.
Also would like to thank the Volkswagen and Their service team at Motinagar Service Center.
Cheers
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Old 12th October 2012, 15:52   #35
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Default Re: Engine Vibration & Rattling in VW Polo TDI 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neugal View Post
If anything goes wrong then I will post again or else I would say over and out..
It is very good to hear that the car is running fine Neugal. Hope you never have to post here again since nothing should go wrong with the car. I was discussing this resolution with my tuner yesterday over the phone. This is verbatim what he had to say:

Each pin or a combination of pins in the ECU represent sensors and actuators (like injectors) on board the engine connected by the Wiring harness. The injector part was malfunctioning. The injector end was covered by the Dealership earlier so it had to be the Harness or the ECU.
But ECU issues are not intermittent, while wiring harness issues are. In the rare case, one or more Pins at the ECU-end were bent or damaged, this kind of intermittent issue is possible. Internal malfunction of the ECU have become rare with the advent of superior manufacturing processes but if in this case it did occur then I would have expected the Injector Shut-Off issue to be continuos, not just turn up now and then especially immediately after first-Engine start.

If it is solved, then it is good. Please consider asking the dealership to do a Compression Test for each Cylinder. The Test-Kit should be available with the Dealership. If the difference between each cylinder is within specified limits, fantastic. Present-day SWs are capable of taking care of Cylinder-Imbalance to compensate fine Bore differences which are born during the manufacturing stage but such scenarios (arisen because of one bore not firing very often over the last 10 months) may not be covered within the SW's pre-programmed fuel correction range.

I too agreed with the above prognosis and suggestion during the conversation. Please check if you can get the compression test for each cylinder done at the dealership. All the best and wish you trouble free miles with the car!

Last edited by abhinav.s : 12th October 2012 at 15:55.
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Old 20th October 2012, 21:42   #36
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Default Re: Engine Vibration & Rattling in VW Polo TDI 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neugal View Post
Dear All
Thanks for all your supports and probable resolutions for my problem on the basis of your experience.
I got the delivery of my car today and they said that they have replaced the ECU in my car. That was the reason why the car was not running well. Actually faulty ecu was not able to control the amount of fuel that should go. So finally it seems my problem is solved also I drove the car today around 120 km, Delhi to Greater Noida and its running well just like ....makhhan maar ke
If anything goes wrong then I will post again or else I would say over and out.
Also would like to thank the Volkswagen and Their service team at Motinagar Service Center.
Cheers
@neugal : Excellent, Thanks for sharing the good news. Wish you all the best and have a trouble free ownership experience with your car.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
Service bill of less than 4k, you kidding? I was told by a VW salesman that there are no free services for the Polo and each one would cost around 8.5k. Either he didn't want to sell me one or your info is slightly off the mark.
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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
I think in this category Punto and Swift takes the cake. 1.3 DDIs is best not only in india but around the world at this price bracket. the engine can be used, abused which ever way. I have seen 2lack kms done swift still silent as new.

at 8.5 lac i would really like to get a climate control and alloy as standard.

Sorry to break the bubble, you are actually buying a Fabia in VW clothing.

They have a very sweet 1.4 liter TDI in small country as south africa, but they choose not to bring it here. as people here can be fooled easily with crap they already were selling.

and yeah i don't own a VW but couple of my friends and client does and seeing their woes, will not buy the current line up.

as far as servicing goes, 4k for one year is serious miscalculation.

1400 for standard grade engine oil. that would have gone twice in 8k kms or 1 year which ever is earlier. So i am not even calculating the price of oil filter, diesel filter, air filter etc.
@DRIV3R, @SirAlec - I mentioned my experience so far. But, as both of you have some serious doubts about the service charges quoted by me, you may refer below post for details -

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post2931923 (VW Polo 1.2L (P) TL - 02 year, 2nd paid service Update)


Quote:
Originally Posted by [B
Soccerfan[/b];2927643]Polo uses Synthetic oil right? That alone would come to around 4K fr 4 litres I think? Have seen such bills in the Polo review threads. Anyways the video is horrifying. It looks like th engine will fall down the next second. Ask them to replace the mounts in warranty or if needed the engine
Yes you are correct to some extent. The dealers are responsible for service and more often they try best to take the customer for a ride, irrespective of brand. Don't know who is responsible - manufacturer or dealer, but at least from owner’s perspective, the more we share information and keep ourselves updated the better.
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Old 20th October 2012, 22:37   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AvonA7
@DRIV3R, @SirAlec - I mentioned my experience so far. But, as both of you have some serious doubts about the service charges quoted by me, you may refer below post for details -

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post2931923 (VW Polo 1.2L (P) TL - 02 year, 2nd paid service Update)
We are talking diesel here, sir. What you have referred to is the petrol.
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Old 20th October 2012, 23:14   #38
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Default Re: Engine Vibration & Rattling in VW Polo TDI 2012

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We are talking diesel here, sir. What you have referred to is the petrol.
Yes. But the VW Salesman who advised you didn't clarify if the service charges are of Diesel or Petrol Polo as per your post

BTW, Diesel or Petrol, engine oil capacity remains the same -

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...report-53.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post2497203 (VW Polo 1.2L (P) TL - 02 year, 2nd paid service Update)
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Old 20th October 2012, 23:33   #39
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Default Re: Engine Vibration & Rattling in VW Polo TDI 2012

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Originally Posted by AvonA7 View Post
Yes. But the VW Salesman who advised you didn't clarify if the service charges are of Diesel or Petrol Polo as per your post

BTW, Diesel or Petrol, engine oil capacity remains the same -

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...report-53.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post2497203 (VW Polo 1.2L (P) TL - 02 year, 2nd paid service Update)
This thread is relating to the TDi and it is a sane assumption that people would refer to the diesel, obviously!

And the numbers in the link you provided for the diesel are very much near what the sales guy at VW told me, go figure.

Also, member vishnu.csk was quoted a 10k estimate for the first service of his 1.6 Petrol.
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Old 22nd October 2012, 14:56   #40
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This doesn't look like a problem with the mounts to me.
Looks like a case of serious misfiring.
Check if the injector terminals on the wiring harness are connected to appropriate cylinders.
I mean the terminal that has to go to CYL 1 is connected to 1 indeed and not to 2 or 3. Same with the other 2 cylinders as well.
Any misconnection could mean an incorrect firing order which can cause this excessive vibration.

Also, does this problem disappear in consecutive starts during the day? And does the MIL go off?
If so, what I said earlier may not hold on.

EDIT: just read that the engine doesn't rev beyond 3000rpm. This means that the ECU has registered an error and is limiting engine rpm to protect the engine.
I assume this error is mostly related to injectors as the dealership has gone ahead with replacing them.
Just check if the injector connections as appropriate as described above and get the engine wiring harness replaced if possible. It can also have a probable defect on the injector lines

Last edited by Auto freak : 22nd October 2012 at 15:03.
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Old 28th October 2012, 21:06   #41
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Default Re: Engine Vibration & Rattling in VW Polo TDI 2012

Dear All
I got my Polo TDI serviced for the first time @15400 Km done and the bill came to Rs 11400 and they didn't do the wheel alignment and balancing as my alloy wheels are not company fitted. So my rough estimate is that normal cost for Polo TDI 1.2 will come around Rs 12500 . This is for all the polo owners or future owner's information.

Have a safe drinving.
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Old 20th January 2013, 23:43   #42
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Default Re: Engine Vibration & Rattling in VW Polo TDI 2012

Am planning to buy the TDI . So a query . The issue was resolved by Motinagar VW dealer on his own , or , did you have to use the mail posted by Abhinav earlier to get give them a sense of direction ? Were you charged for resolving this ?

Now that the issue is resolved , would you still recommend a buy on the TDI ? Also , id like to know that above 100kmph , with windows up , do you or the passengers feel that the engine noise is very loud , as has been mentioned by a TBHPian from the South ?

BTW , the guys in Mumbai told me , that service cost = 8.5K ( 6K for oil , 2k for the filters and 1.5K for the wheel alignment ) So why did you have to pay much more >

regards



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neugal View Post
Dear All
I got my Polo TDI serviced for the first time @15400 Km done and the bill came to Rs 11400 and they didn't do the wheel alignment and balancing as my alloy wheels are not company fitted. So my rough estimate is that normal cost for Polo TDI 1.2 will come around Rs 12500 . This is for all the polo owners or future owner's information.

Have a safe drinving.

Last edited by darthvader5000 : 20th January 2013 at 23:47.
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Old 21st January 2013, 09:12   #43
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Default Re: Engine Vibration & Rattling in VW Polo TDI 2012

That is really heavy shaking. I am really shocked that the service center could not fix it right away. A lot of components can get fatigued with that kind of shaking.
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