Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 31st May 2016, 13:27   #46
BHPian
 
sriramaero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 32
Thanked: 111 Times
Question Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

Guys,

I am trying to see the power and torque graphs for Ciaz, Verna and City. I found some charts for Verna, But I couldn't get for Ciaz nor City. I know that Verna has a more powerful engine, However, I know that practically no one would reach such high rpms.

I am interested in finding a comparative chart for these 3 models (both petrol and diesel) so that I can see the power and torque at low rpms also. Can anyone direct me where I can find such info ?

Regards,
Sriram
sriramaero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 13:51   #47
BHPian
 
d3mon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 469
Thanked: 583 Times
Default Re: Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

I can give you a verbal torque curve. This is far more useful than the manufacturer posted "peak" torque curves, that are the best case scenario. For instance, the Ciaz claims to hit peak torque of 200Nm at 1750 RPM, but anyone who has driven the car will tell you that it's dead below 2200 RPM. It's only in the higher gears (4th/5th) that you'll get anywhere close to that number below 2000RPM.

Verna - Okay below 2000 RPM, Explosive above, right until the redline.
Ciaz - Less okay below 2200RPM (tiny 1248CC engine off boost), acceptable until 4.5k RPM (no whoosh)
City - Good right from 1000 RPM and a gentle linear acceleration matching the Ciaz after 1500RPM. Dies out very quickly at 3500-4000RPM.
d3mon is offline   (6) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 14:34   #48
BHPian
 
sriramaero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 32
Thanked: 111 Times
Default Re: Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
I can give you a verbal torque curve. This is far more useful than the manufacturer posted "peak" torque curves, that are the best case scenario. For instance, the Ciaz claims to hit peak torque of 200Nm at 1750 RPM, but anyone who has driven the car will tell you that it's dead below 2200 RPM. It's only in the higher gears (4th/5th) that you'll get anywhere close to that number below 2000RPM.

Verna - Okay below 2000 RPM, Explosive above, right until the redline.
Ciaz - Less okay below 2200RPM (tiny 1248CC engine off boost), acceptable until 4.5k RPM (no whoosh)
City - Good right from 1000 RPM and a gentle linear acceleration matching the Ciaz after 1500RPM. Dies out very quickly at 3500-4000RPM.
Thanks a lot for your verbal torque curve. From your view, I understand that Verna and City have good torque beyond 2000 & 1000 rpm, But Ciaz is just acceptable even after 2200 rpm till 4500
sriramaero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 14:58   #49
Senior - BHPian
 
Ajaybiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,354
Thanked: 140 Times
Default Re: Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

Why not include VW Vento, Polo 1.2 TSI and Skoda Rapid in your list and if it's possible get a real dyno curve rather going by factory claim, I am sure you'll be shocked to see the figures.
Ajaybiz is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 15:46   #50
Senior - BHPian
 
VW2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: electricity
Posts: 2,572
Thanked: 2,047 Times
Default Re: Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

Quote:
Verna - Okay below 2000 RPM, Explosive above, right until the redline.
Ciaz - Less okay below 2200RPM (tiny 1248CC engine off boost), acceptable until 4.5k RPM (no whoosh)
City - Good right from 1000 RPM and a gentle linear acceleration matching the Ciaz after 1500RPM. Dies out very quickly at 3500-4000RPM.
I actually felt something similar yet slightly different. The Ciaz was terrific city rider with perfectly matched torque and rpm for city driving. The Verna was RPM hungry meaning it needed to be above the minimum power band rpm and was definitely energetic at those RPM.

Honda is a mix of both. It was not exactly low rev happy at the same time had best torque on highways as well. As an overall package the Honda sits perfectly fine for both city and highway(in city one probably needs to downshift to keep slightly better RPM).

Ciaz - Perfect for city drives and occasional highway drives

Verna - Tempted to say this is best suited to cruise in highway speed with minimal gear changes and driving on top gears.

Last edited by VW2010 : 31st May 2016 at 15:47.
VW2010 is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 15:48   #51
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HR 51/HR 29
Posts: 498
Thanked: 946 Times
Default Re: Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
City - Good right from 1000 RPM and a gentle linear acceleration matching the Ciaz after 1500RPM. Dies out very quickly at 3500-4000RPM.
This is the behavior of a new diesel City. The engine of my car has aged rather quickly, despite being maintained properly. After 30 months and 50k km on the road, it has developed a fair amount of lag. There is little response to be had under 1800rpm, followed by a very decent 'whooosh' as the turbo kicks in. Then again, it dies out by 3500rpm. The engine anyway becomes very loud and rough at that speed. Mind you, FE is still stellar at a consistent 20kmpl+ in Delhi traffic.

Overall, the 1.5 iDTEC is an underwhelming engine that does not befit a 12lakh rupee car.
Shreyans_Jain is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 17:25   #52
Senior - BHPian
 
abhishek46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,028
Thanked: 1,944 Times
Default Re: Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
This is the behavior of a new diesel City. The engine of my car has aged rather quickly, despite being maintained properly. After 30 months and 50k km on the road, it has developed a fair amount of lag. There is little response to be had under 1800rpm, followed by a very decent 'whooosh' as the turbo kicks in. Then again, it dies out by 3500rpm. The engine anyway becomes very loud and rough at that speed.
I think you should get your car checked by an expert. There could be an issue with Turbo or some thing else. 50K is not a big number for a diesel motor.
abhishek46 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 17:30   #53
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HR 51/HR 29
Posts: 498
Thanked: 946 Times
Default Re: Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhishek46 View Post
I think you should get your car checked by an expert. There could be an issue with Turbo or some thing else. 50K is not a big number for a diesel motor.
Turbo is absolutely fine. I've had it looked into. There is no issue with anything, its just the way the engine behaves.
Shreyans_Jain is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 18:31   #54
BHPian
 
vibbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pune
Posts: 882
Thanked: 846 Times
Default Re: Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
For instance, the Ciaz claims to hit peak torque of 200Nm at 1750 RPM, but anyone who has driven the car will tell you that it's dead below 2200 RPM. It's only in the higher gears (4th/5th) that you'll get anywhere close to that number below 2000RPM.
Hi,

Got a little confused by this statement. Do you mean to say that the engine makes less torque at 1900 rpm if the car is in 2nd gear than say if the car is in 4th gear?
vibbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 18:34   #55
BHPian
 
d3mon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 469
Thanked: 583 Times
Default Re: Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

Quote:
Originally Posted by vibbs View Post
Hi,

Got a little confused by this statement. Do you mean to say that the engine makes less torque at 1900 rpm if the car is in 2nd gear than say if the car is in 4th gear?
Yes. A turbo needs time to spool up. Some cars have lag-free small turbos that spool up really fast. The Ciaz isn't one of them. So if you have lower boost values, the engine gets less air, and the ECU injects lesser fuel to maintain the optimum air-fuel ratio.

And I'm not even talking about torque limiters here, which are put in some cars to limit the torque in lower gears.
d3mon is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 18:49   #56
BHPian
 
vibbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pune
Posts: 882
Thanked: 846 Times
Default Re: Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

Okay. I always thought, Engine torque is dependant only on the rpm. Never thought the gear too could have a role to play. Cool. Every day new learnings.

Slightly OT, any idea how much difference will there be to the torque generated by engine in lower gears compared to the higher gears? In percentage terms that is.

I believe there won't be any torque limiters in play when it comes to Ciaz.
vibbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 20:17   #57
BHPian
 
d3mon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 469
Thanked: 583 Times
Default Re: Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

Engine torque is indeed dependent only on the RPM for NA engines.

If you're off boost in a lower gear, you could be producing half your peak torque. In the Ciaz, that would mean producing ~100 - 120NM under 2000 RPM instead of the claimed 200NM.
d3mon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 21:02   #58
BHPian
 
vibbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pune
Posts: 882
Thanked: 846 Times
Default Re: Power & Torque Comparison for Ciaz, Verna and City

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
Engine torque is indeed dependent only on the RPM for NA engines.

If you're off boost in a lower gear, you could be producing half your peak torque. In the Ciaz, that would mean producing ~100 - 120NM under 2000 RPM instead of the claimed 200NM.
Sorry for bugging you. Just trying to clear my doubts. You may chose not to reply whenever you feel like.

Boost is dependent on the exhaust flow which in turn depends on engine rpm.So here comes the next doubt. Why would you be off boost in a lower gear? As long as the engine is spinning in the turbo zone, it should be producing enough exhaust gases to run the turbo to speed.

Plus even if the torque generated by the engine is low (say half), you still have more or equal torque at the wheels in a lower gear than in a higher gear due to the ratios (2nd and 4th in our case). So you should get stronger or atleast equal acceleration in the lower gears in any case. So it should not matter.

Plus is this turbo size thing limited to Ciaz only? I mean is the Verna running a smaller turbo which spools up faster?

Last edited by vibbs : 31st May 2016 at 21:04.
vibbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2016, 21:26   #59
BHPian
 
Arjun Reddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 909
Thanked: 1,030 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sriramaero View Post
Guys,



I am trying to see the power and torque graphs for Ciaz, Verna and City. I found some charts for Verna, But I couldn't get for Ciaz nor City. I know that Verna has a more powerful engine, However, I know that practically no one would reach such high rpms.



I am interested in finding a comparative chart for these 3 models (both petrol and diesel) so that I can see the power and torque at low rpms also. Can anyone direct me where I can find such info ?



Regards,

Sriram

Sriram, you would find the real world dyno tests conducted by Race Dynamics in the link below. This is an old thread and probably the Ciaz isn't listed here. Call the RD guys and you would probably get the Ciaz data.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=168016 (Race Dynamics dyno database of Stock cars)
Arjun Reddy is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2016, 18:36   #60
BHPian
 
sriramaero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 32
Thanked: 111 Times
Smile Re: Understanding Power, Torque, Gearing and Top Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjun Reddy View Post
Sriram, you would find the real world dyno tests conducted by Race Dynamics in the link below. This is an old thread and probably the Ciaz isn't listed here. Call the RD guys and you would probably get the Ciaz data.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=168016 (Race Dynamics dyno database of Stock cars)
Thanks a lot Arjun.. This is exactly what I was searching for.. Lets hope they share the data for Ciaz as soon as it is available
sriramaero is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What is the most important factor affecting speed? Power, Torque, or Gearbox? holysmoke Technical Stuff 27 5th April 2010 18:14
4x4 Vehicles and Various Gearing Ratios khan_sultan 4x4 Technical 20 5th November 2008 17:34
ASMA mercedes what are they gearing up for? nitroxx The International Automotive Scene 1 3rd October 2007 00:24
Top Gear 2006 Survey : Fiat zooms into top 10, Honda, Skoda top list. amit The International Automotive Scene 10 8th March 2007 12:31
What is 'Tall Gearing" ? cartech Technical Stuff 3 27th January 2007 23:14


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 09:44.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks