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Old 10th November 2012, 10:10   #1
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Default Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - Based on European 1.6L TDCi or the old 1.4 mill?

I came across the following link from Ford that explains the advanced clean diesel technologies that have been employed by Ford in the European version of the Ford Fiesta's Duratorq 1.6L TDCi engine

http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=19378

Some of the key advanced features of this engine as per this article are:

- Euro IV emission standards
- 16V DOHC
- Latest Bosch ultra-high pressure fuel injection system
- A digital mass air-fuel sensor for improved accuracy and reliability
- Electric exhaust gas re-circulation valve
- Electronic turbocharger waste-gate control
- And what at least reads like a multijet injection system (senior Team BHPians please confirm if this is so or is this really just a regular Unijet system with a small initial pilot injection?)

The Indian version of this engine has been scaled down to 1.5L and also more crucially SOHC 8 valve. This reduction from DOHC 16V to a SOHC 8V seems at least to me more driven by cost reduction than anything else. Is it likely that similar downgrading in terms of technology and advanced features has been done in other areas too for this engine in order to drive down engine manufacturing costs in India for Ford? The available data for the India Ford Fiesta does not throw any light in this area.
Can any of the members in this forum throw some light on this please?

Last edited by GTO : 12th November 2012 at 16:04. Reason: Correcting Link
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Old 10th November 2012, 20:36   #2
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - A dumbed down version of the European 1.6L TDC

Hi,
To me it sounds more like a scaled up Figo engine, rather than a scaled down new 1.6 Duratorq. Can you confirm?

Regards
Sutripta

PS - pls. remove the ... in your link!
How does one find out date of publication of the article?!

Last edited by Sutripta : 10th November 2012 at 20:49.
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Old 11th November 2012, 11:01   #3
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - A dumbed down version of the European 1.6L TDC

Sutripta - thanks for pointing out the broken link in my post!

The correct link is:

http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=19378

I have also attached a pdf version of this article below.

I tried editing my original post and correcting the broken url/link but could not as there were no edit button at the bottom right hand of my post as mentioned in the Team-BHP FAQ. Can anyone throw any light on why the edit button is not visible?

This article seems to have been published in October 2004. I could verify this by using Google's custom search function and by successively restricting the date range of the search.

The Wikipedia article on Ford DLD engine does mention that the 1.5L version is a scaled down version of the 1.6L TDCi version http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Duratorq_engine#1.5

If the engine tech has indeed been downgraded for the Indian market, it does not speak very well of Ford. There seems to be a tendency among some foreign car manufacturers where they treat the developing Indian car market and consumers as a hand me down throw them the crumbs type and think that the discerning Indian consumer would be happy and falling over each other with any yesteryear technology that these manufacturers might throw at them. If this is true, as discerning consumers we need to prove them wrong and let them know that quality and technology matters to us too.
Any view on this would be welcome.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf FORDS SMALL CARS GAIN A BIG NEW HEART .pdf (87.2 KB, 2670 views)
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Old 11th November 2012, 20:34   #4
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - A dumbed down version of the European 1.6L TDC

Hi,
Thanks for the pdf, but I had read it already. There is a time window (I think 15 mins) for editing after posting.
The report talks of emission norms which were to kick in 2006. Hence my question about the date of publication! 2004 is not modern in 2012!

For various reasons I think the India specific 1.5 will be a scaled up 1.4 rather than a scaled down 1.6. In Ford's place, I would do that. The same product cannot be a price warrior and technology leader simultaneously. We need to know more about the 1.5 before commenting.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 11th November 2012, 20:53   #5
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - A dumbed down version of the European 1.6L TDC

The 1.5 is an upscaled version of the 1.4 Duratorq. Read the same during the test drive in the Autocar magazine when the car was launched.

But the petrol is a shortened version of the 1.6 duratech. Cutting edge tech or no tech, all the Indian market demands is efficiency. Not only Ford, almost every engine is detuned by about a 10 bhp to make do with the inconsistent fuel quality.
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Old 11th November 2012, 21:21   #6
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - A dumbed down version of the European 1.6L TDC

The 1.5 in the fiesta has to be the upscaled version of the 1.4, has almost same tech( 8 valves,SOHC..) I guess ford was in a hurry to make an engine below the 1.5l mark, ended up with this 20th century tech!! mind you that this engine is quite deliverable and gives awesome mileage but we all love the latest and greatest, a feat only Hyundai can give.

I looked up on the ford uk website and the claimed mileage figures are astonishing, 31kmpl is the average which can be extracted from the 1.6 diesel. I dont know how correct these figures are and i am guessing these figures will be lower if these engines were offered in India.
http://www.config.ford.co.uk/fordcon...yykfuelspc.htm

BTW theses so called advance 1.6 diesel engines give almost same power figures as the 'dumb' Indian ones, 95Ps and 200Nm of torque, nowhere near the Hyundai and ventos . What is even more shameful is the fact that Hyundai can make a better 1.6 diesel engine with awesome power and torque figures and still give almost similar mileage figures, knowing the fact Ford has much more experience in making diesels than Hyundai.

Going by the failure of the fiesta ford should learn that we Indians aren't running after mileage figures only. Hoping/praying the refreshed fiesta gets a more modern and powerful diesel engine when its launched here somewhere next year!
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Old 11th November 2012, 22:12   #7
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - A dumbed down version of the European 1.6L TDC

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssenhyd View Post
What concerns me really is not that the engine displacement has been reduced but that Ford might have been unfair to the Indian auto market and consumers by selling a less sophisticated and advanced version of the engine than is sold in their developed market? Is it because they think that the Indian consumer might not be sophisticated enough to notice?
They still don't seem to realize that their new Fiesta is not a D-segment car . Going by that, I'd say that this decision is relatively ok.

They might as well bring some new tech in to their India operations. What's a good reason to buy a Ford these days? Price? Build quality? I can't seem to find anything VFM in Ford anymore. Heck, even the Figo is pricey for what is on offer at least in Bangalore. The Fiesta Classic Diesel is their only saving grace but I wonder how long they can continue without a proper plan for their India sales targets.
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Old 12th November 2012, 10:14   #8
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - A dumbed down version of the European 1.6L TDC

Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo1o1 View Post
The 1.5 in the fiesta has to be the upscaled version of the 1.4, has almost same tech( 8 valves,SOHC..) I guess ford was in a hurry to make an engine below the 1.5l mark, ended up with this 20th century tech!! mind you that this engine is quite deliverable and gives awesome mileage but we all love the latest and greatest, a feat only Hyundai can give.

I looked up on the ford uk website and the claimed mileage figures are astonishing, 31kmpl is the average which can be extracted from the 1.6 diesel. I dont know how correct these figures are and i am guessing these figures will be lower if these engines were offered in India.
http://www.config.ford.co.uk/fordcon...yykfuelspc.htm

BTW theses so called advance 1.6 diesel engines give almost same power figures as the 'dumb' Indian ones, 95Ps and 200Nm of torque, nowhere near the Hyundai and ventos . What is even more shameful is the fact that Hyundai can make a better 1.6 diesel engine with awesome power and torque figures and still give almost similar mileage figures, knowing the fact Ford has much more experience in making diesels than Hyundai.

Going by the failure of the fiesta ford should learn that we Indians aren't running after mileage figures only. Hoping/praying the refreshed fiesta gets a more modern and powerful diesel engine when its launched here somewhere next year!
The engine being the heart of a car, I would be happy to compromise and rather have a car that has less electronic gadgets but a more refined engine. VW and yes even Hyundai have delivered a more modern and refined engine than Ford. I am really impressed with VWs 1.6L TDI engine in the Vento, it is a gem of an engine.

What you have mentioned in terms of peak power output of the Ford matching the more advanced engines might be true, but being DOHC 16V engines and greener, the other engine's power delivery might be smoother and they might have lower CO2 emissions than Ford's 1.5L.

Ford's Fiesta is a global car platform for Ford in the sub-compact segment and sold in many geographies, developing as well as developed, hence the expectation of similar tech and refinement in the engine as used elsewhere. Launching that car in India with a souped up version of the 1.4 TDCi engine and not opting for a more refined engine used in their other geographies, a path that they seem to have not followed in any other major market is not a good indicator for Ford.

Last edited by ssenhyd : 12th November 2012 at 10:37.
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Old 12th November 2012, 13:35   #9
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - A dumbed down version of the European 1.6L TDC

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssenhyd View Post
.

Ford's Fiesta is a global car platform for Ford in the sub-compact segment and sold in many geographies, developing as well as developed, hence the expectation of similar tech and refinement in the engine as used elsewhere. Launching that car in India with a souped up version of the 1.4 TDCi engine and not opting for a more refined engine used in their other geographies, a path that they seem to have not followed in any other major market is not a good indicator for Ford.
Ford is offering the same Indian spec 1.5 TDCi in Argentina for their ecosport. dont know if there is any monetary gains by having a 1.5l engine in Argentina though.
I feel ford should replace its 1.4TDCi too since its quite old.

Its mostly in India and Europe where diesels passenger cars sell well, but with rapidly falling car sales in Europe, i guess ford didn't want to spend money on developing a high tech 1.5 engine for India(i doubt it would have been a big amount) where at most they will sell 5k fiestas(ideal situation) per month compared to 10s of thousands of petrol fiestas each in US and china.

I guess this all comes down to the fact that ford feels india is not a big market, They say it is but their actions speak otherwise! they are happy to be 5 or 6 in sales.So as long as they continue this way they will give us decent cars but not the latest tech.
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Old 12th November 2012, 14:07   #10
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - A dumbed down version of the European 1.6L TDC

Basically, Ford is a Motor company, which makes and sells cars and makes profit.

Cars are meant to meet the Emission norms of the Country. Company is responsible for making cars which meet these norms + Every company ensures that their cars to be simple (Techinically) so that it could be easy, simple, cost effective to repair/maintain in the long run.

Every company reserves some of the knowlede/gadgets with out giving it in their current cars. These are reserved for future launches/emission norms which might come up.

For all the above reasons, i feel that Ford tried hard to keep it simple and cost effective. preserved some stuff for future launches.
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Old 12th November 2012, 18:16   #11
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - Based on European 1.6L TDCi or the old 1.4 mil

Agreed that a 16v DOHC head appears more advanced, but there are some good advantages to the 8v SOHC design as well:

1. Reduced maintenance - lesser moving components in the valve train.
2. Better fuel efficiency
3. Low on pollutants

There's a reason why the 1.4L's 16 valved cousin couldn't meet the latest pollution norms while the 8v SOHC did.

A 16v DOHC design is the norm if the prime objective is power, but for all practical purposes, an 8v design is more than enough (even better considering some aspects). Also, due to a flat valve arrangement, the damage to the valves is minimized in the event of timing belt failures; this is something that cannot ever happen in a 16v design.

As for the 1.5L, its a culmination of both the 1.4 & the 1.6. For instance, the 8v SOHC is a slightly bigger clone of the 1.4L's head. Also, the first engine that was produced by Ford & PSA jointly was the 1.4L; further versions like the 1.6L were actually always based on this 1.4L itself. So, in a broader perspective, all Ford-PSA diesels below 2 liters were based on the 1.4L TDCi/HDi motor.

NOTE: Above is purely my knowledge on this subject & I welcome amends (if any).

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Old 12th November 2012, 20:33   #12
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - Based on European 1.6L TDCi or the old 1.4 mil

^^^
Methinks you will have to amend all but (1).
Lets wait for others opinions.

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Old 12th November 2012, 21:02   #13
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - Based on European 1.6L TDCi or the old 1.4 mil

8V heads flow better at low rpms and therefore posses superior drivability in bumper to bumper traffic. Rocam 1.6/1.3 and NHC i-dsi are great examples.

In a diesel, the size and tuning of the turbo have a more significant influence.
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Old 13th November 2012, 10:23   #14
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - A dumbed down version of the European 1.6L TDC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Hi,
For various reasons I think the India specific 1.5 will be a scaled up 1.4 rather than a scaled down 1.6. In Ford's place, I would do that. The same product cannot be a price warrior and technology leader simultaneously. We need to know more about the 1.5 before commenting.

Regards
Sutripta
What you state that a car cannot be a price and technology leader at the same time is true. In this sense VW and Hyundai seems to have made the right choice just from my personal perspective in opting for a more refined engine rather than more in-car features and gadgets. Hyundai seems to be the only engine in the 1.6L segment in India with a variable geometry turbo - a technology feature found in the more pricier engines.
What do other BHPians feel about this?
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Old 13th November 2012, 13:07   #15
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Default Re: Ford Fiesta 1.5L Duratorq Engine - Based on European 1.6L TDCi or the old 1.4 mil

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssenhyd View Post
Some of the key advanced features of this engine as per this article are:

- Euro IV emission standards
- 16V DOHC
- Latest Bosch ultra-high pressure fuel injection system
- A digital mass air-fuel sensor for improved accuracy and reliability
- Electric exhaust gas re-circulation valve
- Electronic turbocharger waste-gate control
- And what at least reads like a multijet injection system (senior Team BHPians please confirm if this is so or is this really just a regular Unijet system with a small initial pilot injection?)

Actually, ssenhyd is right. The current 1.5 mill is a downsized version of the 1.6 TDCi (internally called the DV6) with all of its tech carried down to this engine with only bore/stroke changes and this was done in view of the benefits of excise cuts in this country. But the 1.6 that went under the knife was a SOHC back then and no DOHC - SOHC changes were made. I guess this is the same engine that has been made DOHC now, upgraded to meet the current pollution requirements.
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