Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 6th May 2006, 14:51   #1
Senior - BHPian
 
navpreet318's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dehradun
Posts: 1,718
Thanked: 826 Times
Default What is Engine Blueprinting?

Ok, what exactly is engine blue printing?

Is it opening up the engine and restoring every component to its best possible condition,tolerances etc.?

If I want to turbo an engine, obviously I'll have to rework on the internals to bear the extra power. The engine will have to be opened up and pistons, con-rods, other small stuff will have to be replaced with high performance strong stuff. The compression ratio will have to be altered(lowered).

Who does it best in India? I'm a noobie. JD Madan, Leela, KS Motorsports?

Last edited by GTO : 25th February 2013 at 13:43. Reason: Removing excessive dots
navpreet318 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2006, 16:10   #2
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany.
Posts: 815
Thanked: 96 Times
Exclamation Info.........

Blueprinting an engine means hand building an engine with perfectly fit components using maximum recommended clearances, and minimum recommended volumes.

These specifications should be determined using the engine manufacturer's tolerances for the engine being built.
All parts must be one hundred percent clean. The block should be boiled out making certain water jackets are perfectly clean. All bolt holes should be re-tapped, cleaned and oiled, as well as their mating bolts. Any surfaces being refinished should have all holes chamfered, and any casting burrs or irregularities should be ground away.

For more info on blueprinting click on the link below!

Info courtesy: Hastings Manufacturing

Last edited by Edmund : 10th May 2006 at 16:11.
Edmund is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2006, 19:03   #3
BHPian
 
Ford Rocam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Mumbai-India
Posts: 880
Thanked: 16 Times
Default

Blueprinting is done in an engine to correct large variation in their clearance which happens during manufacturing process since its a volume based & priority is on quantity & tolerance level is acceptable for a stock car but not for racing for eg: in a blueprinting following steps are carried out
1)weight - all pistons weight are measured & equalled to the last gram same for connecting rods also
2)Cranks - If engine has run over 50-70K KM Usually the journals are polished & next tighter sized bearing are used.
3)piston-to-wall clearance - its an important aspect of blueprinting to get all of the piston-to-wall clearance for each cylinder equal its range is 0.0001"-0.0002"
4)Equal CC volume - Making sure the combustion chamber volumes of every cylinder are equal so all the cylinders will have pretty close to same compression ratio.
5)Balancing - Every engine should be balanced by balancing the engines internal parts vibratory stress on the engine is greatly reduced.

Source : various books & articles on Internet
Ford Rocam is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2008, 23:31   #4
Senior - BHPian
 
razor4077's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,875
Thanked: 252 Times
Default

Reviving an old thread here. Just wanted to know if anyone has tried blueprinting or knows about this in detail.
- Does this result in an increase in HP from stock? Or does it just take it to the advertised stock HP (eg: 87-88 BHP for a Lancer)?
- How effective is it for an old engine (say an engine that has run >50K kms)?
- How much would it cost approximately to carry out this process?
- What are the other pros and cons of this procedure, and how come we don't hear of it more?

@Mods: Maybe this thread should be in the Technical section?
razor4077 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2008, 13:25   #5
Senior - BHPian
 
navpreet318's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dehradun
Posts: 1,718
Thanked: 826 Times
Default

from what i have understood from various sources in the tuning field is

1.we have a standard engine.
2.different vehicles use the same engine with different states of tune.basically an engine family.
3.same engine is also used in some race/rally car in a different state of tune.
4.all these different states have blueprints.
5.these blueprints contain different parameters such as internal components,fuel and ignition maps,work done like porting and polishing.etc etc.the regular works that tuners do detailed so as to get a perticular output.
6.we get these blueprints and do the same work on out cars and get the same power output as on the blueprint be it of a road car or a race car.


a fine examply of this is the 1.6L engined Ford Fiesta.Mpower components are available for this car and can help take the output to up 170bhp or more depending on the money spent.and it can go upto 40 lakhs as i am told.

now these are my views and i'd not like to enter any arguement with anyone.thank you.the above info maybe totally or partially incorrect.
navpreet318 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2008, 20:28   #6
BHPian
 
Ford Rocam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Mumbai-India
Posts: 880
Thanked: 16 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by navpreet318 View Post
5.these blueprints contain different parameters such as internal components,fuel and ignition maps,work done like porting and polishing.etc etc.the regular works that tuners do detailed so as to get a perticular output.
6.we get these blueprints and do the same work on out cars and get the same power output as on the blueprint be it of a road car or a race car.

now these are my views and i'd not like to enter any arguement with anyone.thank you.the above info maybe totally or partially incorrect.
Tuning fuel/ign maps,head porting/polishing is not part of blueprinting.
I think you got confused with the concept of blueprinting.
Let me try to explain

Suppose we have 2 Baleno cars which will be modified.

Both stock engines but one engine will be blueprinted & only external modification which will be common to both engines.
like Intake/headers/F.F/cams/ standalone increasing rev limit etc etc. (all exactly same on both engines)

So which car will perform better,last longer and drive better ?
Obviously the car which has blueprinted engine cause the stock engines manufactured will always have some manufacturing tolerance & when you do blueprinting you actually
1) Check all cylinders to have exact C.C & Compression
2) the weights of all pistons are measured & for eg if one of the piston has lowest weight compared to other 3, by removing material from all three pistons the weights are made equal.
3) Same goes with the Rods
4) All Clearance are measured piston to wall, main/Rod bearings/Tappet settings & reconfirmed for exact specs 2-3 times.
5) The crank is also checked & if any minor imbalance is present, its removed.
6) All torque specs for mains/rod bolts/head bolts etc are checked throughly.
A blueprinted engine will perform better than stock engine at any given condition.
Ford Rocam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2008, 01:51   #7
Senior - BHPian
 
ananthkamath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,194
Thanked: 46 Times
Default

In addition to what Rocam posted:

The rotating assembly is dynamically balanced to within a certain spec quoted in oz-in (same as for torque), typically 1/10th that of a standard production engine. This allows the use of a very light harmonic balancer, plus the flywheel can be lightened.

The fuel injectors are flowed typically to a standard deviation of 2 - 5 cc/min of flow.

If the racing class allows, even the intake and exhaust port flow is matched using a flow bench.

I had the chance to sit in a Spec Miata racecar which is essentially a race-prepped Miata but with a blueprinted engine and transmission. The engine alone costs $10k to prep, WITH BONE-STOCK PARTS. Imagine the amount of labor going into it. Anyway, I could immediately notice that it is infinitely smoother and free-revving than my similar road car, even though both are completely stock. Typically these engines put about 10-15 hp more to the ground than a stock un-blueprinted engine.
ananthkamath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2008, 02:28   #8
BHPian
 
highwayblaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago/Mumbai/Pune
Posts: 771
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

thats amazing. I had no clue it costs 10K to prep an engine. this entire procedure u guys have listed down looks awfully tedious!
highwayblaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2008, 11:53   #9
Senior - BHPian
 
razor4077's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,875
Thanked: 252 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
I had the chance to sit in a Spec Miata racecar which is essentially a race-prepped Miata but with a blueprinted engine and transmission. The engine alone costs $10k to prep, WITH BONE-STOCK PARTS. Imagine the amount of labor going into it. Anyway, I could immediately notice that it is infinitely smoother and free-revving than my similar road car, even though both are completely stock. Typically these engines put about 10-15 hp more to the ground than a stock un-blueprinted engine.
One clarification. When you say race-prepped, does that mean this engine was blueprinted in a different way than a street-spec car? Or in other words, are there different "levels" of blueprinting?

10-15 hp is pretty darn impressive. Again, is this true for a street-spec job?
razor4077 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2008, 12:02   #10
Senior - BHPian
 
spadival's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 1,770
Thanked: 15 Times
Default

So is blueprinting basically fixing manufacturing defects in the engine beyond the tolerance limits fixed by the manufacturer? $10k sounds expensive, but I guess its the labour costs that add up rather than anything else.
spadival is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2008, 12:18   #11
BHPian
 
Sideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Madras - India
Posts: 641
Thanked: 18 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by razor4077 View Post
Reviving an old thread here. Just wanted to know if anyone has tried blueprinting or knows about this in detail.
- Does this result in an increase in HP from stock? Or does it just take it to the advertised stock HP (eg: 87-88 BHP for a Lancer)?
- How effective is it for an old engine (say an engine that has run >50K kms)?
- How much would it cost approximately to carry out this process?
- What are the other pros and cons of this procedure, and how come we don't hear of it more?

@Mods: Maybe this thread should be in the Technical section?
To answer your questions in order

- The same 4G15 in our inidan lancers put out around 99 HP abroad. After blue printing the engine the figures obtained were 120 or 122 HP.

- The old engine does not remain old anymore. Mostly all of the internal components are changed.

- In terms of cost it's difficult to say unless you specify the model of the engine.

- Pros are many and have been listed out already. Cons - extrememly time consuming and laborious process and thus expensive.
Sideways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2008, 14:16   #12
Senior - BHPian
 
razor4077's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,875
Thanked: 252 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideways View Post
- The same 4G15 in our inidan lancers put out around 99 HP abroad. After blue printing the engine the figures obtained were 120 or 122 HP.
So that's close to a 40% increase in power (87 -> 120) just with blueprinting and no other mods?

Quote:
- In terms of cost it's difficult to say unless you specify the model of the engine.
Say a 4G15?

While there might be an appreciable improvement in power, there would be no way for someone to check the increase in HP, right (apart from KS' dyno)?

Last edited by razor4077 : 8th May 2008 at 14:18.
razor4077 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2008, 14:48   #13
BHPian
 
Sideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Madras - India
Posts: 641
Thanked: 18 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by razor4077 View Post
So that's close to a 40% increase in power (87 -> 120) just with blueprinting and no other mods?)
1) You have to remember that the ECU's in the Indian cars have different maps from those abroad because to the quality of fuel, blah blah blah. So if you are able to source an ECU for the 4G15 from abroad then thats an instant 12 horses right away.

2) So yes 40% with blue printing and ECU swap. Without ECU about 12 horses lesser so about 25%. Trust me this is huge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by razor4077 View Post
Say a 4G15?
It's difficult to say but a part list can be compiled and prices ascertained. Jitu has mentioned most parts, add to that valves, retainers springs etc. I can PM / mail you a list if required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by razor4077 View Post
While there might be an appreciable improvement in power, there would be no way for someone to check the increase in HP, right (apart from KS' dyno)?
^^^ This is correct.

Also please remeber that we need to consider the surrounding conditions during a dyno run. So if the guys who blue printed the engine and got 120 odd horses, might not get the same in our weather conditons / different location. So allow a certain percentage (very little though) for this also.

Last edited by Sideways : 8th May 2008 at 14:54.
Sideways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2008, 20:27   #14
Senior - BHPian
 
ananthkamath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,194
Thanked: 46 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by razor4077 View Post
One clarification. When you say race-prepped, does that mean this engine was blueprinted in a different way than a street-spec car? Or in other words, are there different "levels" of blueprinting?

10-15 hp is pretty darn impressive. Again, is this true for a street-spec job?
I have no idea about this but I imagine a race-spec engine will be tighter in terms of most tolerances mentioned. The thing about gaining the last 10% taking 90% of the work (law of diminishing returns) is very true here.

To add to what everyone has said, its not really worth it to do this on a regular street engine because of the cost/benefit ratio. Unless of course you're doing everything yourself.

Last edited by ananthkamath : 8th May 2008 at 20:28.
ananthkamath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2013, 13:13   #15
Senior - BHPian
 
foby.sebastian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 2,448
Thanked: 1,102 Times
Default What is Blueprinting ?

lets continue the discussion here. so that the topic gets more visibility.

Any examples of Blue printed (Professionaly) motors in India?

Thank you Ram !

================================================
Howler, thanks for balancing what has been posted by Foby.

Slightly OT but I think its apt here as the question has been asked here.

Foby, what you have understood is a version of the layman's interpretation of blue printing. Please don't think of this as a critisism but as a learning process. From the work you have been doing in the forum, you have all the amkings of a "petrolhead". So this is to make you a better one.

I quote below from Wiki (which often is the easy source instead of typing up the whole thing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_tuning

Quote:
Serious efforts at blueprinting result in better-than-factory tolerances, possibly with custom specifications appropriate for the application. Common goals include engine re-manufacturing to achieve the rated power for its manufacturer's design (because not all mass-production engines put out the rated power), and to rebuild the engine to make more power from a given design than otherwise intended (because custom engines can often be redesigned to different specifications). Blueprinted components allow for a more exact balancing of reciprocating parts and rotating assemblies so that less power is lost through excessive engine vibrations and other mechanical inefficiencies.

Ideally, blueprinting is performed on components removed from the production line before normal balancing and finishing. If finished components are blueprinted, there is the risk that the further removal of material will weaken the component. While it has nothing to do with blueprinting per-Se, lightening components is generally an advantage provided balance and adequate strength are both maintained, and more precise machining will in general strengthen a part by removing stress points, so in many cases performance tuners are able to work with finished components.

For example, an engine manufacturer may list a piston ring end-gap specification of 0.003 to 0.005 inches for general use in a consumer automobile application. For an endurance racing engine which runs hot, a "blueprinted" specification of 0.0045" to 0.0050" may be desired. For a drag-racing engine which runs only in short bursts, a tighter 0.0035 to 0.0040 inch tolerance may be used instead. Thus "blueprint" can mean tighter or looser clearances, depending on the goal.

Unquote:

So from the above you can see it would be rather difficult to blueprint the engine of a vintage or classic.

In a way you are correct in what you stated as that is what would have been done on the Ford's engine but that clearly is not blueprinting.

Best Regards & Drive/Ride Safe

Ram
foby.sebastian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine parts tuning / Blueprinting jingaboysr Motorbikes 1 7th January 2011 21:42
Deutz Engine Screensaver & Engine assembly/working animation mohit Shifting gears 19 14th July 2009 21:35
RTO Formalities for Engine change in Kerala (XDP4.9 engine to the XD3 engine) 4x4addict Modifications & Accessories 16 14th April 2009 21:51
Skoda FSI Engine, More powerful Diesel engine, new VW/Audi Platform? rangaraj The Indian Car Scene 7 5th September 2005 11:24


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 15:46.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks