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Old 28th October 2014, 07:04   #211
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Default Overheating problem with my Esteem

Hi All,

Note to Mod's - I did discuss the problem in the related thread but the thread is not much active and I need immediate help hence starting a new thread.

Apologies for the long post.

The car in question is a 2005 model Esteem Vxi. It has run 69k Kms so far (not sure if the readings is genuine as I bought it preowned). I bought this car 4 months back. The odo was at 53000 kms at that time and the car did not have any cng/lpg kit installed niether it had signs of any kit installed previously. As folks from Delhi NCR would know 90% of time you see an Esteem it would be converted to CNG. So this gave a little confidence in the odo reading and the previous owner claimed he already have 2 other cars 1st being an I20 and 2nd a Honda City hence the low odo reading.

Background of the problem :-

The car overheated the very first time I took her out for a drive of more thn 10 kms. I had just got the AC serviced and it was bone chilling when all of a sudden the AC stopped working at a red light. I checked and did not find anything wrong with the AC but then realised that the temp needle was above the half mark. I quckly tried to park the car on the side of the road. And let it cool down opened the radiator and the water level was down ( it was running on water only ). The car ran fine for few kms and started overheating again. Topped up water again and drove to mg mechanic the next day. I was suspecting a leak in hose pipe or worst a leak in the radiator itself. But to my horror it was worse than that. The nechanic diagnosed it to be the head gasket. I gave him a go ahead. And the gasket was replaced and the car was returned to me in the evening. Now a strange problem came up. The car was still overheating and was losing water as before however this time the car won't crank after driving a few KMs. gave the car back to the mechanic. He swapped the radiator with a good known one but the ptoblem was still there. So he called me up and informed that he will have to face the block as well along with the head. Gave him a go ahead. Got the car back after 2 days. The problem was still there. But with an addition this time. The car would still overheat but as soon as the engine would reach optimum temp the low oil warning lamp will start glowing up on console. And will fade away when it's being revved higher.

I took the car to MASS. Got it checked got the radiator flushed. Got the radiator cap changed. But the problem was still there and the SA advised me to take my car back to my mech and ask him to put an MGP gasket and he said what my mech used was a cheap local brand. Confirmed with mech and he had actually used a local one. By now I was fed up with the mech n I called up my old mech who used to take care of my carb Esteem. Asked him to do the job with an MGP one. He returned the car next day but with a bad news that the problem is actually with the head of the car. He found that the head is repaired with M seal and car would overheat again. So we sourced a head from an accidental car. And the car was working fine after that. I drove the car for around 1000 kms and there was no issue with the car. So I took it to MASS and got the radiator flushed and filled up the coolent. The car became smooth again but the engine oil light would still come on as soon as the car reaches the optimum temp. But only at idle if I revv the car the light would go away. And the SA at MASS told me that the oil pump is weak and would need to be repalced. The estimate I got for which was 3300 /-. However the part itself costs only 770/- at MASS.

So I thought of checking with my local mech. But before I could do that one fine evening the car overheated again. This time there is no drop jn the coolent level. The car was running fine for last 3- 4k kms. So now I am not sure what's wrong with the car. One thing I would like to mention is that I had got the AC compressor bearing changed 2 months back and I was getting a screaching noise which I think is from the same bearing or from the belt. Because if I put water on the belt the noise stops for a while. Could this be because the bearing is jammed and which is causing stress on the car and resulting into over heating.
nIk
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Old 28th October 2014, 09:44   #212
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Default Re: Overheating problem with my Esteem

Sounds remarkably similar to an old Fiesta I had bought. In that case, my Fiesta had what is sometimes known as "short run syndrome" - a majority of the time, the car would be run for less than 5kms, and would be switched off without ever reaching its optimum operating temperature. If you can still contact the previous owner, speak with him/her and check usage patterns?

Have you checked to see if there is mayonnaise-like build up under the oil cap? Also, it might be a good idea to see if the thermostat, temperature sensor and sender are in good order.
The engine in my Fiesta also had clogged lubrication channels - and a good engine flush cured that problem.

If it is feasible, disconnect the Air Con unit and use the car for a few days to see what happens - just to eliminate the A/C unit from being a cause of the problem.

Finally, you could take courage in your hands and do a few highway blasts. Sometimes, it works!
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Old 28th October 2014, 10:03   #213
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Default Re: Overheating problem with my Esteem

Check if the cooling fan is working or not, when the overheating happens. Also check if the thermostat is stuck or not.

Blown head gasket shows other symptoms than simply overheating.

Check and fill with fresh engine oil of recommended viscosity to see if the oil pressure light flickers at idling again or not. Check the drained oil for metal particles.

Check engine compression on all cylinders.
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Old 28th October 2014, 10:54   #214
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Default Re: Overheating problem with my Esteem

Seems to be a classic case of a cooling fan not working. Had this issue in my Ikon when overheating caused the coolant to spill out.

The fan could be changed or if a minor issue, even changing a blown fuse will rectify the problem.
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Old 28th October 2014, 11:52   #215
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Default Re: Overheating problem with my Esteem

Sounds like an awfull lot has been done/replaced already.

But I think the biggest problem is that no proper diagnosis has been done yet. There are the obvious visual checks you can do eg check if the cooling fan kicks in.

Unless it's something very obvious, you need to take a more analytical approach of finding the real culprit. This where you will get your hands dirty or get yourself an infrared thermometer. You need to figure out where the overheating (lack of proper cooling) takes place.

So you need to run the car up to normal operating temperature and follow the flow of the cooling water, through the radiotor, pump hoses, thermostat and the engine. Be careful when feeling around, there are moving parts in there and a lot of parts are very warm, but even at 100oC you can quickly touch anything and feel where parts of the system are warmer/cooler.

Having an infrared thermometer makes it a lot easier. It will show you exactly where the cooling water is with what temperature. So if your radiotor is (partially) blocked that will show easily in huge temperature difference. Same on your engine block. Thermostat idem. If you have a cooling water temperatur gauge you might be able to observe the thermostat opening. Run the engine from cold to warm and watch the gauge very closely when the temperature reaches normal operating value. As soon as the thermostat opens you will notice a tiny drop in temperatur and then it goes back up again a bit.

Feel the hoses/pipes on the thermostat housing during run up from cold to warm. If they all have the same temperature your thermostat during run up it is likely to be stuck .

I dont think you AC has anything to do with overheating. If the AC compressor is really stuck it will just snap the V-belt. If the clutch/bearing are poorly and worn that might result in a somewhat higher load on your engine, but it will not cause overheating.

I would also check the temperature gauge/light if I were you. Maybe its just an electrical fault.

It shouldnt be to difficult to find out, but you do need to find somebody that can methodilically work down the various options and trouble shoot before starting to swap out parts.

Good luck,

Jeroen
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Old 28th October 2014, 14:17   #216
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Default Re: Overheating problem with my Esteem

Felt like reading my own post that I wanted to post :-) I have a very similar heating problem with my 2005 Scorpio for more than 2 years. Changed radiator, checked other elements like thermostat, head (pressure tested & found to be fine), changed gasket, but problem still remains.

Water (yes no coolant) too evaporates and once in a month. We don't panic anymore. One departure is, when temperature gauge is at it highest point, sometime accelerate & go faster and sometimes temperature comes down (may be due to air draft or fan kick backs to life or whatever...)

India Garage mechanic suspects that it could be malfunctionining viscous fan, not sure what it is. It is one reason I am hesitating to sell my car & go for a new one.

Hoping to find a solution here.
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Old 28th October 2014, 15:05   #217
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Default Re: Overheating problem with my Esteem

I had somewhat similar issue in my Esteem. The low oil light used to glow just after start and would disappear afterwards. The cause was a clogged mesh called "jaali" in the oil sump. That was cleaned and problem never surfaced again. It was because of that little thing that oil pump was not able to lift the oil and hence engine was running almost dry.
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Old 28th October 2014, 23:07   #218
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Default Re: Overheating problem with my Esteem

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiloAlpha View Post
If you can still contact the previous owner, speak with him/her and check usage patterns?

If it is feasible, disconnect the Air Con unit and use the car for a few days to see what happens - just to eliminate the A/C unit from being a cause of the problem.

Finally, you could take courage in your hands and do a few highway blasts. Sometimes, it works!
Hi KiloAlpha

The problem is not related to AC. The car does overheat without AC as well. And about highway driving 90% of time my car is driven on highway only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Check if the cooling fan is working or not, when the overheating happens. Also check if the thermostat is stuck or not.

Blown head gasket shows other symptoms than simply overheating.

Check and fill with fresh engine oil of recommended viscosity to see if the oil pressure light flickers at idling again or not. Check the drained oil for metal particles.

Check engine compression on all cylinders.
Hi SS-Traveller,

I don't think the fan has any problem as the fan does turn on and off and I think it is kicking in at the right time. About the oil, i did get the oil change done at MASS. The problem still remains the same. About the metal particles i did not check that in the drained oil but the car is not consuming oil at all. The engine oil level has remained the same in last 3 -4K Kms & there is no white smoke at the cold start either.

The car does not have any thermostat now. It was removed when the head gasket was changed the second time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Sounds like an awfull lot has been done/replaced already.



I dont think you AC has anything to do with overheating. If the AC compressor is really stuck it will just snap the V-belt. If the clutch/bearing are poorly and worn that might result in a somewhat higher load on your engine, but it will not cause overheating.

I would also check the temperature gauge/light if I were you. Maybe its just an electrical fault.

It shouldnt be to difficult to find out, but you do need to find somebody that can methodilically work down the various options and trouble shoot before starting to swap out parts.

Good luck,

Jeroen
Hi Jeroen,

I just forgot to mention a very important point in my post. The temprature needle never showed overheating eccept for the first time. After that the temp needle always stays just little below the half mark. The only way i know the car is overheating is it would not crank after a few KMs drive. We suspected the started motor to be the culprit first but got the starter motor serviced and got a new armature for it as well and the problem was very much there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkg View Post
I had somewhat similar issue in my Esteem. The low oil light used to glow just after start and would disappear afterwards. The cause was a clogged mesh called "jaali" in the oil sump. That was cleaned and problem never surfaced again. It was because of that little thing that oil pump was not able to lift the oil and hence engine was running almost dry.
Hey kkg,

Can this mesh be accessed from outside or you have to open the sump for it ?

Do you all think the problem can be because of the oil pump and because it is not supplying enough oil the car is overheating.

nIk

Last edited by nik0502 : 28th October 2014 at 23:08.
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Old 29th October 2014, 07:22   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0502 View Post
I just forgot to mention a very important point in my post. The temprature needle never showed overheating eccept for the first time. After that the temp needle always stays just little below the half mark. The only way i know the car is overheating is it would not crank after a few KMs drive. We suspected the started motor to be the culprit first but got the starter motor serviced and got a new armature for it as well and the problem was very much there.

Im sorry but Im totally lost now. Why do you think not cranking is a sign of overheating? With cranking I assume you mean it would not even turn over when trying to start?

Jeroen
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Old 29th October 2014, 07:33   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post

Im sorry but Im totally lost now. Why do you think not cranking is a sign of overheating? With cranking I assume you mean it would not even turn over when trying to start?

Jeroen
Hey Jeroen,

I know it is overhaleating as before also when I was facing the problem once I have driven couple of kms and try to crank the car it would not start like you would hear that the starter motor is trying to rotate but is not able to and if at the same time if you open up the radiator cap you would find that the water level in the radiator is low. So just leave it idle for few min and the car would start in first crank itself. I checked with the SA at MASS and he told me when the car is overheated it does not crank.

nIk
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Old 29th October 2014, 10:18   #221
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Default Re: Overheating problem with my Esteem

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0502 View Post
I was getting a screaching noise which I think is from the same bearing or from the belt. Because if I put water on the belt the noise stops for a while. Could this be because the bearing is jammed and which is causing stress on the car and resulting into over heating.
nIk
The belt is not tensioned properly, hence it slips and therefore the noise. Get it tightened.
On the overheating issue- what temperature reading do you get from the coolant when the fan starts, and after the fan stops?
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Old 29th October 2014, 10:26   #222
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0502 View Post
The temprature needle never showed overheating eccept for the first time. After that the temp needle always stays just little below the half mark. The only way i know the car is overheating is it would not crank after a few KMs drive.
Does your Esteem have a carburetted engine? Or is it fuel-injected? I am thinking: heat soak.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 29th October 2014 at 10:28.
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Old 29th October 2014, 11:02   #223
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post

Does your Esteem have a carburetted engine? Or is it fuel-injected? I am thinking: heat soak.
Hey SS- Travellar,

My car is a 2005 model which is an MPFI. All Esteems post 2000 are MPFI. I had a carburettor one before which was 17 years old. It never overheated even once. Unfortunately it's body was not as strong as the engine was so had to replace it with this one.

nIk
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Old 29th October 2014, 11:27   #224
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0502 View Post
Hey Jeroen,

I know it is overhaleating as before also when I was facing the problem once I have driven couple of kms and try to crank the car it would not start like you would hear that the starter motor is trying to rotate but is not able to and if at the same time if you open up the radiator cap you would find that the water level in the radiator is low. So just leave it idle for few min and the car would start in first crank itself. I checked with the SA at MASS and he told me when the car is overheated it does not crank.

nIk
Maybe its not overheating- just a vapor-lock.
Source:
Quote:
A vapor lock is more likely to develop when the vehicle is in traffic because the under-hood temperature tends to rise. A vapor lock can also develop when the engine is stopped while hot and the vehicle is parked for a short period. The fuel in the line near the engine does not move and can thus heat up sufficiently to form a vapor lock
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Old 29th October 2014, 12:33   #225
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

I think now that you have tried a lot of ad hoc remedies, to diagnose the problem systematically. Here are few issues that may cause over heating
. Carbon deposits. These are easily remedied, by driving 100km at 90+ on an open highway. Do it without AC. As you cross around 50km, you will note the engine note changing from a dull roar to a sharper one. That is because the carbon is being burnt at higher temperature and clearing the passages.

. Clogged oil passages. This may be the oil filter, a wire mesh filter or the narrow oil channels. For the first, change oil filter if not done so. For second ask your mechanic if there is a mesh filter, if there is clean it. For the last an engine flush followed by a long drive at 90-100 will clean up all the passages.

. Head warped. In case there is leak in the head, there will be oil in water and water in oil. Check both the oil for water and radiator for oil. If both are fine, the head is fine.

. Lastly, the ignition may be retarded. Ask you mechanic to check the timing with a timing gun. If he does not have one, go to MASS. In case you feel that the car is not accelerating or if you cannot go beyond 60 in second, this may be the cause. In my 2000 Esteem, I used to hit 100 in second once in a while, when overtaking on highways. In normal overtaking it was 40 in first, 85 in second and then fifth.
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