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Old 17th April 2017, 11:34   #346
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post

Can you check if any other Kwid owner has come back with complaints regarding overheating.
Inquired about the same to the dealership from where I purchased the car and they have not heard any such complaints till date.

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Then even that is not sufficient for the type of load it was subjected to. As the peak torque is developed at higher RPM, you have to rev the engine up and use 1st or 2nd gear on steep slopes. Here is what a revue has to say :

A three cylinder motor construction thatís utilised by all three cars develop torque of about 90Nm. Kwid develops it higher in the rev range of around 4250rpm, however the Eon and Alto K10 develop it around 3500rpm which should ideally provide them better driveability.

In short on steep slopes with a moderate to full load keep the engine at 3500+ RPM, else the engine will be strained and overheat.
True. Still if I consider this, then why with all those myriad sensors etc, nothing was detected? If overheating, then sensors are in place to detect the same with time in hand. Even when the car was stalled, there was no indication of what so ever on the dashboard, which should not be an ideal scenario.

The basics are not right some place over here and that's what puzzles me! In short, I was stranded for approx 45 minutes and in those 45 minutes none of the single sensor had bleeped or blooped.
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Old 17th April 2017, 11:47   #347
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

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.......

The basics are not right some place over here and that's what puzzles me! In short, I was stranded for approx 45 minutes and in those 45 minutes none of the single sensor had bleeped or blooped.
In the race to be competitive and to conform to the pollution norms, a lot of manufacturers have installed electronics without exhaustive testing. As long as the car is chugging along it is fine. It is when electronics fails prematurely that the fun begins. There have been instances where high end cars - Audi and Land Rover to name two have had the electronics malfunction and the cars just locked up in the middle of the highway.

That is one of the reasons for the popularity of Toyota and Maruti in India. Their cars rarely fail, are in general super reliable and have reasonable maintenance costs. In contrast European cars have abysmal reliability and cost a bomb to maintain. In the end it boils down to choosing between reliability (and lower maintenance costs) on one hand, and low reliability but fun to drive (as well as snob value) on the other. As the saying goes, owning an Elephant is a prestigious but feeding it requires deep pockets.

This is not to say that all European cars fail, but certainly a significant number do.
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Old 17th April 2017, 11:49   #348
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

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I am naive in these. Can I do that? How to get the values? Any instruction set available for the same? Let me know if you need me to capture any particular image. I can quickly run down to the basement and capture the same for you. At least let me make something from the Sunday office
OBD scanning is quite easy, but first, you need to buy OBD-II dongle (I assume you don't own it yet). Usage procedure quite simple, connect dongle to OBD port (usually under steering wheel) and scan codes using mobile app. I feel every car owner should always have OBD dongle handy, having error code information can point one to exact issue, without visiting service center
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Old 17th April 2017, 11:49   #349
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

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Then even that is not sufficient for the type of load it was subjected to. As the peak torque is developed at higher RPM, you have to rev the engine up and use 1st or 2nd gear on steep slopes. Here is what a revue has to say :

A three cylinder motor construction thatís utilised by all three cars develop torque of about 90Nm. Kwid develops it higher in the rev range of around 4250rpm, however the Eon and Alto K10 develop it around 3500rpm which should ideally provide them better driveability.

In short on steep slopes with a moderate to full load keep the engine at 3500+ RPM, else the engine will be strained and overheat.
Are you talking about a new engine which is running or any 3-cyl small engine?
The reason I ask is I drive a WagonR 1.0 which has a 3-cyl engine (known for its poor low end). I have taken it to the ghats with 4 well built adults on board and AC blowing itself hoarse on a hot sunny day. I drove the car spiritedly but the top speed was 100-110 kmph. I never faced any issue over the 550 km single day round trip (out of which 100 kms were either hills or steep ghats).

I have driven the same car for 1200 kms at a stretch (on 4-lane roads) during which the car was turned off twice for 15-20 mins each. Again no issues.
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Old 17th April 2017, 12:26   #350
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

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I have driven the same car for 1200 kms at a stretch (on 4-lane roads) during which the car was turned off twice for 15-20 mins each. Again no issues.
I don't he means it as a blanket statement. I think the issue arose with a Kwid because it is a small car (1L 1or lower capacity), during the running in, with a full load of passengers, traversing hilly roads AND during an abnormally hot season. These factors taken together certainly wouldn't help the engine.

For me, regardless of whether I drive a car with a 1L or a 3L engine I'd go easy on the car during the running in. But especially so if it's a smaller car/engine.

I remember a time when some of my colleagues and myself would hitch a ride with another colleague who had a little M800. That car would struggle with 4 of us in city driving with the AC on.
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Old 17th April 2017, 13:24   #351
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

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OBSERVATION(s)
  • Engine over heating at ghats.
  • Speed reduction at certain points, might be related to the engine over heating.
Thank you.
Just a wild guess here. Could it be related to the fuel pump? This came to my mind because you said you didn't get any visual indication on dashboard for overheating.

I think I have read about issues with fuel pump in Kwid a couple of times.
Here is a post: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offici...ml#post4039556 (Renault Kwid : Official Review)
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Old 17th April 2017, 13:43   #352
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

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I don't he means it as a blanket statement. I think the issue arose with a Kwid because it is a small car (1L 1or lower capacity), during the running in, with a full load of passengers, traversing hilly roads AND during an abnormally hot season. These factors taken together certainly wouldn't help the engine.

For me, regardless of whether I drive a car with a 1L or a 3L engine I'd go easy on the car during the running in. But especially so if it's a smaller car/engine.

I remember a time when some of my colleagues and myself would hitch a ride with another colleague who had a little M800. That car would struggle with 4 of us in city driving with the AC on.
I am sure it was not a blanket statement. My query was to know if I have been ignorant about something. From my experience of automobiles, the current generation of vehicles are designed to operate at extremely high temperatures with full load. They fail or throw a tantrum mostly if they haven't been maintained well or something is malfunctioning.

I have lived in places which are among the hottest in the country. Yet, I have experienced a car's failure only once. 5 of us were traveling in a M800 during a summer afternoon with AC on. The car started overheating. We checked and found that it was running on coolant. After cool down and coolant top up, the car ran fine.

PS: We owned a 800 for 11 years and completely agree with your observation.
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Old 17th April 2017, 13:59   #353
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
I am sure it was not a blanket statement. My query was to know if I have been ignorant about something. From my experience of automobiles, the current generation of vehicles are designed to operate at extremely high temperatures with full load. They fail or throw a tantrum mostly if they haven't been maintained well or something is malfunctioning.
Functioning at extremely high temperatures would depend on which country or terrain the vehicle's cooling system has been designed for, the oil in the sump among other things. For e.g. I am aware some vehicles designed to run in hotter countries are generally given larger radiators & more coolant volume for better heat transfer compared to what the same model in EU might have. They also use thicker oil in hot climates but that is changing with the focus on fuel efficiency and the use of thinner oils, for e.g. 0W-20 even in countries like India is on the rise. So, I would not say cars need to be babied in hot temperatures. But when the engine is being run-in, certainly yes. Just go easy.

Quote:
I have lived in places which are among the hottest in the country. Yet, I have experienced a car's failure only once. 5 of us were traveling in a M800 during a summer afternoon with AC on. The car started overheating. We checked and found that it was running on coolant. After cool down and coolant top up, the car ran fine.
The M800 was particularly prone to coolant evaporation and would require frequent top ups. I put it down to a bad rubber seal on the filler cap and the expansion bottle. Back in the early '90s a friend of mine experienced his M800's engine seizing without any warning sign on the dashboard. Why? The sensor on the engine block depends on the presence of coolant to detect the temperature. In this case the coolant had drained out via a leaking hose and the sensor did not send any electrical signal to the temperature gauge. This is the experience I referred to in my previous post to the OP.
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Old 17th April 2017, 14:00   #354
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

I seriously appreciate the healthy discussion happening over here and everybody pitching in to identify the possible / probable cause. Thank you very much dear all. This forum has helped me a lot (and still does) when I find issues with my Bullet 500 and the same way, the forum has stood by my side on this particular issue.

With regards to this issue, a thing that baffles me is what if I was staying at Mahabaleshwar (that's the hilly zone where this issue had happened). Or for that, other parts of India where we have hill and high temperature.

Wouldn't I take my car for a spin or wait till the run-in period to be over? There are no such prints on the owner's manual and neither do the dealership prefer not selling cars over there. On the contrary, even for the very basics, I would have to do the running on a daily basis. Yes, the load factor would probably be not there, but then here we are comparing a load which might have happened on one day, vis-a-vis to a daily running of someone who would stay there and use it daily.

Over heating, is ok, on my Dad's Ambassador from the 70's. Literally we had to pour water on the radiator and soak it completely while we were drenching in the heat and sun at Salboni. But today's cars are definitely not that nimble. Yes, proper care would make them last longer, which is applicable for every mechanical parts.
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Old 17th April 2017, 19:36   #355
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

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With regards to this issue, a thing that baffles me is what if I was staying at Mahabaleshwar (that's the hilly zone where this issue had happened). Or for that, other parts of India where we have hill and high temperature.
I think the idea behind the running-in parameters is to use moderate loads and engine RPMs. Going up a hilly road with 4-5 occupants, in hot weather, with AC on in stop-go traffic will put additional stress on the engine and can cause engines to overheat.

As for the locals in Mahabaleshwar, which is a small town, a bit of short distance driving up and down the slopes for local errands is different from what you did i.e. a drive from Pune to Mahabaleshwar a comparatively long journey that has a steep & lengthy ghat section which starts shortly after Wai village. The car made it clear it didn't appreciate the treatment.

As I said before, and it's strictly my humble opinion on offer here, it is better to go easy on any vehicle when it's new.
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Old 17th April 2017, 21:59   #356
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

Point Noted. Thank you
I had visited the service center this afternoon. They took in the car to run tests and two things were communicated to me post their tests.
  • Car has not faced any over heating issue as there is no mark of the same in their reports.
  • There is no issue with the fuel injection.

Since this is the first time they are facing this issue, they requested me to keep the car with them so that they can check with their internal Renault technical support team after sharing the logs with them. Keeping fingers crossed. I have requested them to share the OBD report as well so that the same can be discussed on one to one basis with knowledgeable experts.
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Old 17th April 2017, 23:30   #357
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

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Originally Posted by Majumdarda View Post

OBSERVATION(s)
  • Engine over heating at ghats.
  • Speed reduction at certain points, might be related to the engine over heating.

Questions
  1. Why did the engine over heating occur when other cars could move around gladly?
  2. We were stranded for approximately 45 minutes over there. With so much electronic gizmos aboard, how is it possible that if over heating is happening, then there is no visual / audible warning before hand?
  3. The speed reductions that happened a couple of times, post this heating issue, can they be related or not?
  4. Today I visited the showroom and this is the first time they have heard such a problem being reported on a Kwid 1.0 L. They have advised to check this with their KOTAK (someone who I understand is the technical person on engine front) and for that I have to leave the car with them. I intend to leave it on Monday. So that I get suitable leads from here and then take it up accordingly.
  5. Car is just approaching one month and odometer reading is Nine Hundred kilometers odd. The problem that occurred, how soon does it occur on new car? (Our Amby had this problem, I know).
Being a new car doesn't have anything to do with overheating, other than a speculation that the coolant level was not sufficient, or the radiator cap was faulty etc. A brand new car should perform the task as good as a car that is10k kms old.

The first symptom of the engine refusing to start, the fan coming on and staying on point to the engine / coolant not cooling down sufficiently. Did you check the coolant level at this point or are you guessing the coolant was ok?

At this point if the coolant evaporated then that explains the second instance you reported. With an insufficient quantity of coolant it is very likely the engine will overheat. An overheating engine will show lethargy in pickup, i.e. no pick up. So the loss of speed was in this case definitely related to the engine heating issue.

The first part to be checked in such cases is the radiator. It will tell you if there is any coolant left in the system. Modern cooling systems run almost entirely on coolant and not water. However if the coolant is gone, you can add water and make the car driveable for a short distance.

The second culprit is the radiator fan, but in your case the fan was on both times so it is the radiator that probably is the culprit. It could be a loose/leaking radiator cap or a radiator leak.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:46   #358
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

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...all of a sudden the engine had stopped...
...the car stopped.[*]Turning the ignition key, only gave us the cranking sound with a whine from the bonnet up front.[*]Once the bonnet was opened, I observed that the fan was moving in full speed. The movement of the fan continued, even after the key was removed from the slot.
[*]The fan stopped moving after 5-10 minutes, but car refused to start. The same cranking sound is there. Looks like the engine wants to start but something is stopping it.[*]After another 15 minutes approx, the engine bay is much colder and I could touch some of the parts there with bare hands.[*]After another 5 minutes, and with a flock of onlookers, the engine finally comes to life...

Experts please advise as to what might be the possible cause for this and the expected solution?
What you experienced is the heat soak phenomenon, commonly seen with stop-start driving in extreme ambient temperatures.

Don't worry, there's nothing wrong with the car.
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Old 20th April 2017, 08:04   #359
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

The coolant level is adequate and per the technician there is no issue with the radiator.

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What you experienced is the heat soak phenomenon, commonly seen with stop-start driving in extreme ambient temperatures.

Don't worry, there's nothing wrong with the car.
This is something I am hearing the very first time and thus googled a bit

"The phenomenon known as "heat soak" occurs when the engine is turned off. At this time, the combustion process is terminated. This terminates the momentum of the crankshaft, which in turn stops the turning of the water pump. As the coolant is no longer being circulated, the engine block and cylinder temperature increase for a period of approximately 3 to 10 minutes, depending on the engine design and additional components.
During this time, the engine block radiates heat to the air surrounding the engine, which slowly cools the engine. However, the cooling process occurs slowly, and as a result, the temperature of the engine block transfers the heat to the coolant. The coolant temperature then increases, which in turn increases the pressure inside the coolant system. This is why the vehicle's coolant temperature gauge increases over a period of time after the engine has been turned off."

Reading, I think I can very well relate to the first part, as the car was start-stopped a number of times to adjust into the parking. And because of the climb before that, the engine definitely was heated up. Might be it did not receive the proper cooling time and that caused this stalling, which went undetected.

Tell me sir, in such a scenario, is it possible for the on board diagnostics to fail generating an alert? Also, if just by reading few of my lines, you can come to a possible scenario, what is stopping the service engineers to identify the same and help me out?

They have just withhold my car, advising that they are searching Pan-India for anyone else who might have faced this scenario and a possible solution for that
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Old 20th April 2017, 08:20   #360
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Default Re: What to do if your Engine Overheats on the road

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Reading, I think I can very well relate to the first part, as the car was start-stopped a number of times to adjust into the parking. And because of the climb before that, the engine definitely was heated up. Might be it did not receive the proper cooling time and that caused this stalling, which went undetected.

Tell me sir, in such a scenario, is it possible for the on board diagnostics to fail generating an alert? Also, if just by reading few of my lines, you can come to a possible scenario, what is stopping the service engineers to identify the same and help me out?

They have just withhold my car, advising that they are searching Pan-India for anyone else who might have faced this scenario and a possible solution for that
OBD is not designed / programmed in any vehicle to detect and warn about heat soak phenomenon - it'll simply prevent engine start until coolant temperature comes within normal range, which is what happened.

As to the diagnostic abilities of service engineers in India - no comments.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 20th April 2017 at 08:21.
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