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Old 17th September 2011, 11:38   #271
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

apologies for offence caused bud! didnt mean it like that.
the reaction came from the gut - having learned all my driving in the hilly roads in old tractors, jeeps and ambassador cars.
pressing the clutch and brake together is suicide if going downhill at speed. or even while driving in the plains at speed.
of course in the old days one had to be judicious in the use of the clutch and brake when required because the old ambys were rather prone to "axle breaking" situations.
cheers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suess View Post
I respect your view but that language is totally uncalled for. in emergency braking situation you need your car to save you n others, and if it is just a ball of metal with huge momentum, It's not going to help. It's not about controlling only, it is more about stopping n if stopping doesn't help, steering away to avoid obstructions. Emergency is situation gone out of control and only available tools to save you are your car n your single minded devotion.
Though OR, but can't help to say that I hope moderators will also take cognizance of language we are being on forum while I see increasing trend of calling other stupid and what else. First it was "other than BHPian" now we can use these words for follow BHPian.
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Old 17th September 2011, 12:45   #272
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeluM View Post
I agree with you that...

...PS. I do use engine braking, and advise all to do so in normal braking situations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I don't know whether you can call it an art, considering most...

...High-end offroad vehicles usually have a ABS switch-off option for slippery conditions.
Thank you for the valuable information fellas! I shall keep this in mind and improve on my theories and practices.

Samurai, that is true. ABS has a lot to do with traction and it plays a very important role in the lock-up situation. Not every time does a non-ABS vehicle lock up. it depends on the condition of the tarmac, whether slippery or sandy.

Thank you for the corrections!

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyself View Post
While appreciating the trouble you have taken to touch upon a few points, what I have observed is, getting into neutral a short distance from a speed breaker is indeed a good idea. Engine revs fall to the idling speeds, albeit for only a few seconds. Coasting is not meant to be done while cruising. What I meant is to come to the neutral a few metres ahead of the unavoidable object which necessitates compulsory slowing down. I would strongly advice against coasting in neutral just to reduce fuel consumption, as also when on a decline.

At this stage, though I do love to know about new things, including tips on driving, I, even at the risk of sounding immodest, am not in need to google up for driving tips. Theory is different, Sir, and not all the tips provided are good. Some are downright ridiculous.
People are highly mistaken when they coast in neutral. The car would probably consume more fuel while in neutral and coasting than if in gear. The car should remain in gear all the way to the speed breaker, at which point one must depress the clutch and change to a lower and more appropriate gear while crawling over the speed-breaker.

You've said that engine-revs fall to idling speeds when put in neutral before a speed-breaker. This, as far as I know, is untrue. When you shift to neutral from say, 4th gear or 3rd gear, a shot distance before the speed breaker, the engine revs go up a little. If you hold the gear you're in, the engine revs gradually fall below the level it would be at if it were in neutral. Basically, your car's FE will improve if you hold your gear just before a speed breaker, rather than switching to neutral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vb-san View Post

Suhaas: I thought you’re much younger
And what made you think so, vb-san>

Last edited by suhaas307 : 17th September 2011 at 12:48.
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Old 17th September 2011, 12:49   #273
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Quote:
Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
And lose the control over power steering and lose all the braking, good!
Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Braking suddenly from 120 km/h does not require one to press the clutch...It's not just about concentrating on several things at once. The braking and then depressing of the clutch should come naturally and in a reflex manner..
Quote:
Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
Take the case of Honda city. Braking distance of Honda city for 60 MPH-0 MPH is 123 feet.

Thank you, but I am not a super computer. But in emergency we need to stop in a matter of seconds!!
1. In an emergency situation just hit the ABS brakes and focus on where you want to car to go not on the obstacle. Because like Anilsanil mentioned the car will continue on for 30-40 meters (if at 100kmph on a dry road). By hitiing the brakes all you are doing is buying precious time to decide where you want your car to be. However Suhaas307 is right when he specifically states not to bother with the clutch except before the stall. If you feel the urge press both feet down use the foot rest for the left foot.

2. Droping the car to neutral just before the stall is a reflex action that occures similar to when you have to change gears in traffic. If it is not a reflex action, practice so it becomes one. It should not take seconds to do this. 1.5 seconds is the average response time to hitting the brakes. You can reduce this to about 1 second (or even less, depending on age and skill) with practice. Older people will have naturally slower reactions (all other things remaining equal).

3. Do not ease off the brakes if ABS pushes back. Keep up the pressure firmly. Only practice can reduce panic.

4. In the case of a multi-car accident like on an Autobahn do not try to drive around the chaos. With so much happening the best possible place to point your vehicle is where the accident is happening and in motion. Since everything is in motion chances are things wil have moved out of the way by the time your vehicle gets "there".

5. Lastly an ounce of defensive driving is better than a pound of panic.

Last edited by navin : 17th September 2011 at 13:06.
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Old 17th September 2011, 13:00   #274
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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Originally Posted by keyur View Post
On Indian roads, ABS hardly kicks in
I may disagree here. I have experienced ABS kick-in while going down a steep curvy ramp at low speeds as well - in situation where the vehicle is attempting to steer and at the same time there is a steep descent enough to trigger a skid (or possible skid).

agree with everybody- Great to see somebody helping out in the given situation.

Last edited by subbarp : 17th September 2011 at 13:17. Reason: kudos
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Old 17th September 2011, 14:26   #275
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

It seems clear that some members will not budge from their stand that clutching/braking simultaneously in emergency stopping situation is "correct". Without wishing to belabour the point, let me just remind everyone that there are people reading this thread who are not necessarily the most experienced of drivers. While every individual is entitled to an opinion and to draw his own conclusions from the various arguments for and against, I think it's only fair to point out that:
  1. In emergency braking situation, Method 1 (advocated by self, suhaas307, Samurai and some others) is to hit the brake HARD, keep both hands firmly on the wheel and let the car slow from 100 kmph (for example) to nearly stopping speed. If car is ABS-enabled, it will kick back, let it- do NOT release the pressure. If car is not ABS-enabled, it will tend to lock, in which case pump the brakes to prevent locking. When car has slowed down sufficiently and if likely to stall, declutch and shift into neutral or lower gear as is the case. This is a method has been widely advocated by secondary sources and is validated by the combined experience of the advocating drivers . The only possible drawback is mistiming the declutch in which case the car will stall: however, since this will happen at low speeds (likely below 30 kmph), it is expected (and hoped) that subsequent stall will not cause any significant loss of control since the end-objective is to stop.
  2. Method 2 (advocated by VeluM, Suess and some others) is that you should hit both clutch and brakes simultaneously which absolutely negates the possibility of stalling. There does not seem to be any particular technical reason why this should not be practiced, except for an intitive perception (for some) that hitting clutch before/at the same time as brakes will result in a loss of control since car will no longer be in the engaged gear. On a practical note, it is advised not to emply Method 2 if road is downward sloping since declutching may well send the car into an uncontrollable state due to gravity .
Back to the original topic: whether or not the driver in this case employed ABS correctly, he should NOT have been driving at those insane speeds in such close vicinity of a clear stopping area such as a toll booth. The original post makes a case against ABS for the vehicle truning turtle while not exploring other possible causes such hitting an object at very high speed, or an SUV's inherent tendency to turn turtle thanks to higher centre of gravity etc.

So everyone who's still reading: no amount of safety features can substitute for that simplest but most difficult of things: safe driving practices.

<steps off soapbox and goes home>
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Old 17th September 2011, 17:04   #276
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Quote:
Originally Posted by noopster View Post
It seems clear that some members...

...So everyone who's still reading: no amount of safety features can substitute for that simplest but most difficult of things: safe driving practices.

<steps off soapbox and goes home>
Very well said Noop. You've captured the essence of the argument and put it forth for all to see.

You're absolutely right. The chances of one losing control while de-clutching and braking simultaneously may not be much, but again, it depends on the condition of the road, the situation one is in and the suddenness of the braking maneuver. The chances of one losing control if declutching/braking simultaneously on a down-ward slope is huge.

I remember one day, while on our way to Goa, I was driving at around 80-100 km/h on the GQ if I'm not mistaken and there were two cars on the road, including ours. I was in the right lane and the person driving the Swift was in the left lane but a few cars' lengths behind me. And all of a sudden, this two-wheeler forced his way through the median and almost fell onto the road. I spotted him in the last second because there was some sort of sign-board or something that was in front of him, completely hiding his existence.

I had to brake pretty hard and come down to about 20 km/h. The road was sloping downwards and I hit the clutch and the brake simultaneously, and I literally felt the car shimmy.

While on a another drive, to Goa again, of course , there was this truck that was hogging the right lane for quite a while and there was a very impatient Volvo honking and switching lanes trying to overtake it. I watched the entire fiasco about 10 cars lengths behind them. Finally, the Volvo driver lost his cool and swerved to the left in an attempt to overtake him. He hurtled past truck and I followed suit. I was well behind the bus and had left several cars' lengths ahead of me, and that probably was a very good idea, looking back now.

Anyway, as I was proceeding to overtake the truck, the Volvo guy suddenly swerved into the right lane after he passed the truck, only to reveal a stationary bullock-cart full of hay bang in the middle of the left lane. I had to brake hard since I was doing about 80-90 km/h. There was a lot of sand on the road, but the car was very composed. It held its line as I stood on the brakes. The ABS ensured the car was steady, and I felt the violent kick-backs but didn't let go of the brake. This time, however, I had hit the brakes first and only then hit the clutch after a few seconds, when the digi-speedo read 30 odd km/h. And yes, it was a bit downhill as well.

The car I was driving is a '06 Civic.
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Old 17th September 2011, 20:06   #277
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post

I had to brake pretty hard and come down to about 20 km/h. The road was sloping downwards and I hit the clutch and the brake simultaneously, and I literally felt the car shimmy.

entirely inattributable.

before this starts off again, all i am trying to say is there are people who have learnt in panic braking to hit both the brake and the clutch.
there people whove learnt t brake, and then clutch.
Neither is wrong.

Limited to panic braking situations ONLY.

If you are planning to bring in clutch wear, fuel consumption etc, then, i am sorry.
If i am trying not to hit someone/thing so often, that its come to the extent of affecting clutch wear, and fuel consumption, then i have bigger problems in my driving...

I read this somewhere, "X makes the best cars in the world.And please, before you argue with me on this, drive an X car."

Your methods may be correct, but mine are too.
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Old 18th September 2011, 07:13   #278
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
Your methods may be correct, but mine are too.
Well, let's just hope you never have to take driver's test in UK, where they don't really tolerate such dogmatism.

When I was training for my US driver's road test in 1993, I was a little nervous since I had not driven cars before. Yeah, yeah, I had learnt car driving in a Bangalore driving school a year before, but that's just 10 classes with instructor and not real driving. My only real driving experience was few years on scooter.

However, my NJ driving instructor calmed me down saying that the mostly likely test candidates from India that fail road test frequently are the ones with prior car driving experience from India. He said they bring so much baggage of bad habits, it is hard for them to unlearn it. Since I was a clean slate, he said I will do alright. And I did, cleared the test in one attempt.

Here is a list of reasons why many of my colleagues/friends failed the road test thanks to having bad habits from India:

1) Didn't turn and look back while reversing, just used the rear-view mirror and not even the side mirrors.
2) Using just one hand on the steering saying other hand is needed on the gear shift.
3) Didn't use turn signals while turning since most Indian cars didn't have turn signals.
4) Oblivious to brake lights in the car in the front.
5) Passing a car from the wrong side.
6) Couple of them who gave the test in manual-shift cars since they were more used to it, failed for half-clutching.

I am told that UK driver's test is 10 times or more difficult than US driver's test. And they really don't care about what you believe. You better follow every one of the written rules or you fail.
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Old 18th September 2011, 10:33   #279
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Well, let's just hope you never have to take driver's test in UK, where they don't really tolerate such dogmatism.

When I was training for my US driver's road test in 1993, I was a little nervous since I had not driven cars before. Yeah, yeah, I had learnt car driving in a Bangalore driving school a year before, but that's just 10 classes with instructor and not real driving. My only real driving experience was few years on scooter.

However, my NJ driving instructor calmed me down saying that the mostly likely test candidates from India that fail road test frequently are the ones with prior car driving experience from India. He said they bring so much baggage of bad habits, it is hard for them to unlearn it. Since I was a clean slate, he said I will do alright. And I did, cleared the test in one attempt.

Here is a list of reasons why many of my colleagues/friends failed the road test thanks to having bad habits from India:

1) Didn't turn and look back while reversing, just used the rear-view mirror and not even the side mirrors.
2) Using just one hand on the steering saying other hand is needed on the gear shift.
3) Didn't use turn signals while turning since most Indian cars didn't have turn signals.
4) Oblivious to brake lights in the car in the front.
5) Passing a car from the wrong side.
6) Couple of them who gave the test in manual-shift cars since they were more used to it, failed for half-clutching.

I am told that UK driver's test is 10 times or more difficult than US driver's test. And they really don't care about what you believe. You better follow every one of the written rules or you fail.
really?
for mashing the clutch and brake while in a panic brake?

i too hope i dont have to take a test in uk too then.i will flunk.


anyway,unappreciated, taking a phrase without context and terming it a dogma.
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Old 18th September 2011, 12:43   #280
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk View Post

... Neither is wrong...

... Your methods may be correct, but mine are too.
Hi mayankk,

You are absolutely correct. There is nothing wrong in both methods, and both stop the car.

but out of the two methods, which one is better to stop the car?. Well going by the discussion, and my experience its braking in gear, as it gives much better control.

Now many might find it difficult to implement in panic situations, and I see that they are reluctant to change their instincts for the fear of the worst.

But if a method is obviously more effctive, then wouldnt training your instincts be good idea?.. After all driving, is also an instinct, trained well.. Or else.. For eg: we'd all be looking or thinking about the gear and when to change..

Regards,

Dhanush
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Old 18th September 2011, 14:49   #281
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

I guess we can safely continue the debate on using both the clutch and brakes, or only the brakes, in any kind of braking scenarios, in a separate thread before the mods close down this thread. Appeal to anyone who want to post more on this topic: Please don't do so in this thread.
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Old 18th September 2011, 14:57   #282
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

I just took a quick look at this thread (haven't read the whole thing) and just wanted to correct an error in an otherwise correct post :

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
- Being in neutral and coasting consumes more fuel than it would if it were in gear. The reason being that the RPM will settle into a speed that spins the engine faster. In neutral, the engine spins faster than if you're in gear and slowing down.
This is not the reason. Here's an explanation from another thread >>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
When you are in neutral or have the clutch pressed, the car has to keep fuel going to the engine in order to keep it running. This uses fuel, naturally.
When you are in gear, and you take your foot off the accelerator, modern cars (which are fuel injected and pretty intelligent) sense the decelerating load on the engine and CUTS ALL FUEL SUPPLY TO THE ENGINE. This uses virtually NO fuel. The only thing keeping the engine spinning is the rolling of the tires transfering power back up the drivetrain, keeping the engine spinning. And at the same time you are getting engine braking! Talk about a sweet deal.
cya
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Old 18th September 2011, 15:48   #283
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
I just took a quick look at this thread (haven't read the whole thing) and just wanted to correct an error in an otherwise correct post :

This is not the reason. Here's an explanation from another thread >>
Thanks Rehaan for quoting the explanation - that too from a post which is more than 5 years old. Appreciate it

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
And what made you think so, vb-san
Just joking. I feel you are well-informed for your age


Getting back to the original topic, it will be useful if someone can list down the situations where in ABS can work negatively.
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Old 18th September 2011, 15:57   #284
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Well, let's just hope you never have to take driver's test in UK, where they don't really tolerate such dogmatism.

When I was training for my US driver's road test in 1993, I was a little nervous since I had not driven cars before. Yeah, yeah, I had learnt car driving in a Bangalore driving school a year before, but that's just 10 classes with instructor and not real driving. My only real driving experience was few years on scooter.

However, my NJ driving instructor calmed me down saying that the mostly likely test candidates from India that fail road test frequently are the ones with prior car driving experience from India. He said they bring so much baggage of bad habits, it is hard for them to unlearn it. Since I was a clean slate, he said I will do alright. And I did, cleared the test in one attempt.

Here is a list of reasons why many of my colleagues/friends failed the road test thanks to having bad habits from India:

1) Didn't turn and look back while reversing, just used the rear-view mirror and not even the side mirrors.
2) Using just one hand on the steering saying other hand is needed on the gear shift.
3) Didn't use turn signals while turning since most Indian cars didn't have turn signals.
4) Oblivious to brake lights in the car in the front.
5) Passing a car from the wrong side.
6) Couple of them who gave the test in manual-shift cars since they were more used to it, failed for half-clutching.

I am told that UK driver's test is 10 times or more difficult than US driver's test. And they really don't care about what you believe. You better follow every one of the written rules or you fail.
Exactly, that's was the reason we are discussing it here. but it is like we have two school of thinking. and these are both coming from experience and trainings at different places, persons etc.

As in UK, getting DL is Germany is one of the toughest thing to do. on an average one has to take about 30-35 practical lessons which incl. highway, city, state highway, night and 30 zone driving apart from first aid, theory classes covering car technicals and road signs, rules, regulations etc. you will also be taught about all kind of parking, emergency braking and reversing on corner. it cost about 1800Euros if you make it first time in theory as well in practical tests, which is highly unlikely.

one of my friend has failed it 3 times; 1st failed because he couldn't answers some technical questions about his car at start of test and then after 5 minute driving he was asked to park which he did but let go of clutch without turning off the engine(though parking brakes was pulled up!).
2nd failed because he was too close to the car in front of him on highway!
3rd he failed when he just came driving out of the transport office building and he didn't come to complete halt on a stop line!

so, there they don't leave any scope for "your way" only correct way is how it is written. and i believe that's how it should be. Traffic is a system, it has to follow the rules to be efficient and for glitch free function. that's one of the reason that there is no speed limit in Germany. Recently this year, they came up with study result that younger people who just got their license are main cause of accidents. so, they already have made the rule and amended their DL process, so that now after getting your first license within 1yr (in that time of period DL is not permanent), you have go through 10hrs of driving lessons again at Driving School to get feedback and improve.

I got my DL there in Hamburg(and in first attempt ). and i was taught to use both clutch and brake same time because a. it's easier/simpler b. stalling engine is not allowed when you are driving under any circumstances c. you are not allowed to leave steering wheel till you have finished the emergency maneuver and anyway it takes only less than a second, you don't have enough time to do a lot when you are going to hit someone/something.

I did my emergency braking test practice and exam in snowing/icy road conditions with Audi A3. lot of juddering from brake pedal but no out of control movements from car. in fact my practice was on little downward slope. it is just matter of less than a second and engine braking and all that is non-existant. further you are doing that in straight line so, no controlling of car either, just you have to hold it straight.

anyway, as noop said we are discussing here two schools and they are bound to different. but only one of them is correct for you and is one which you have practiced and are confident in.

Last edited by Suess : 18th September 2011 at 16:00.
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Old 18th September 2011, 16:00   #285
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
This is not the reason. Here's an explanation from another thread >>
cya
R
I thought the same. But had to correct myself when saw Ford Figo petrol on 3rd gear @50kmph did not stop with legs off the pedals and kept going on and on. This exercise was part of the Ford DSFL today that happened on NICE road. The road was level, may be the car might have stopped if it was uphill. Or had it been on 5th gear (overdrive), it might have stopped.

Last edited by bejoy : 18th September 2011 at 16:02. Reason: Added 'overdrive'
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