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Old 7th June 2013, 20:46   #151
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Default Re: Why you must practice the "Idling Rule" with Turbo-Charged Cars

something that I do in my Vista is - I know that the turbo kicks in @ 1750 RPM. so rather than wasting fuel idling in one place I start moving after about 10 seconds but ensure that for the first 2-3 mins I don't cross the 1500 rpm range and the same thing for the shut down. I ensure that I let the car idle for a bit while driving through my colony and then when I park I shut down immediately.
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Old 8th June 2013, 01:38   #152
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Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
That is significantly near idling RPM anyway as far as the Turbo is in question.

Don't worry much about the embarrassment. On our roads, not many have time to notice us anyway. And, the embarrassment if any, is worth the long turbo life
Correctly said. Good one.

There are two ways to tackle this turbo using issue.

1) Wait for 30-45 seconds after reaching your destination and then switch off the car

Or

2) Say a 1-2 kms before the destination drive slow such that the turbo does not spool up. Keep the RPM between 1500-2000 rpm. For the Ritz diesel 60kmph @5th gear is around 1500 rpm so it won't be a problem to keep pace with the rest of the traffic.

If there is an issue of any embarrassment of waiting beside the car and not switching it off then it is better then being sorry later for changing the turbo. Not many are that free to even look at us and our actions.

Regards,
Anurag.
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Old 8th June 2013, 02:11   #153
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Default Re: Why you must practice the "Idling Rule" with Turbo-Charged Cars

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
If there is an issue of any embarrassment of waiting beside the car and not switching it off then it is better then being sorry later for changing the turbo. Not many are that free to even look at us and our actions.

Regards,
Anurag.
+1.

I just sit in the car for a few seconds more, and arrange my stuff - if i feel anyone is watching/ waiting. Things like - putting the parking sticker back in place (I dont stick it on the windshield), eyewear back in its box etc will take more than 30 seconds anyway.

Not that it matters though - Their patience is not worth the huge repair bill a blown turbo will give us.
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Old 8th June 2013, 02:19   #154
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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
+1.

I just sit in the car for a few seconds more, and arrange my stuff - if i feel anyone is watching/ waiting. Things like - putting the parking sticker back in place (I dont stick it on the windshield), eyewear back in its box etc will take more than 30 seconds anyway.

Not that it matters though - Their patience is not worth the huge repair bill a blown turbo will give us.
+1

Things like switching off the AC, music system, lights(if it's night driving), can be done during these 30-45 seconds.

Regards,
Anurag.
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Old 8th June 2013, 08:32   #155
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Default Re: Why you must practice the "Idling Rule" with Turbo-Charged Cars

It takes about a minute from my apartment complex gate to my parking slot, and I exploit that time for this. The same story at the office too.

However, I am not sure whether you actually need this during city driving. You hardly push it past 2K while pottering around in the city.

In my view, one needs to be extra careful while on long drives and one pulls over to have a break- the engine has to come down quickly from the 2.5 k mode to a stop in those situations, and thats when one need to be really careful about idling for a minute.

I usually use the time to wait for others to get down, and do small time-wasting tactics like switching off the AC, music system etc. Well if there is still time left, one can pretend that one is a pilot , and do random checks on your dashboard, assuming that your plane has just arrived at the parking bay after a long flight :-D

In spite of all this I miss it sometimes....
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Old 21st June 2013, 01:16   #156
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Default Re: Why you must practice the "Idling Rule" with Turbo-Charged Cars

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Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
The turbo is spooling up (i translate it as - generating enough compression to actually make a difference to the engine performance) at the RPM where your car delivers maximum torque / power. I'm sure the documentation will mention something like this - Max Torque = 190 Nm2 - 1750 to 3000 RPM. (Just random numbers used) which means, your turbo is spooling at 1750 RPM.
Not fully correct, as per my experience with the Vento - "Turbo starts from around 1300 and picks up faster near 1500 RPM". The specification for the Vento states a max torque of 250Nm at 1500 RPM.

Quote:
Regardless of spooling up, the turbine does spin anyway with the exhaust gases - just that at lower RPM, the quantity & rate of exhaust gas created isn't enough to spin it fast.
I have another silly doubt. Why should the turbo really spool up when pressing the pedal in neutral? Can't it be designed to work only in gear?

And another one - does the turbo kick in while in reverse, when already the reverse is much torquey?
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Old 21st June 2013, 08:54   #157
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Default Re: Why you must practice the "Idling Rule" with Turbo-Charged Cars

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Not fully correct, as per my experience with the Vento - "Turbo starts from around 1300 and picks up faster near 1500 RPM". The specification for the Vento states a max torque of 250Nm at 1500 RPM.
Yes - thats what I meant when I said "Just random numbers used". Those RPM numbers were for my Vista. So your turbo starts spooling up around say 1200rpm, you feel the difference by 1300rpm & peak delivery is 1500rpm onwards. The turbo range differs per car, per turbo design.

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I have another silly doubt. Why should the turbo really spool up when pressing the pedal in neutral? Can't it be designed to work only in gear?
The reason is simplicity of design. If you want to disengage the turbo when in neutral, that would necessitate a switching mechanism. A mechanism that would direct the exhaust gases bypassing the turbo when the transmission is in neutral & via the turbo when in other gears. Significant increase in complexity & additional points of failure for practically no gain at all.

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And another one - does the turbo kick in while in reverse, when already the reverse is much torquey?
Yes it does. You see the turbo is a "passive" device. It just turns when exhaust gases pass through & as the rpm increases, so does the compression. Thus the turbo works regardless of gear.
However, the turbo kick will not be so pronounced in reverse, because by the turbo kick rpm, as you rightly said, the reverse gear with its short ratio, is already at its upper cap of power / torque supply.

Hope that helps. Cheers!
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Old 21st June 2013, 15:20   #158
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Red face Re: Why you must practice the "Idling Rule" with Turbo-Charged Cars

Guys, any idea whether this has to be followed for 2 wheelers too? I own a vespa (LX 125) and since it has some starting problems, i just keep the throttle slightly open (like the auto rickshaw people) and kick it when starting for the first time. as soon as it starts, i wring the throttle fully twice or thrice but for a very short period of time so that the engine may heat up (else, the engine shuts down). Is this correct? or should i let it to idle and shut down and start 3-4 times everyday morning? and after a ride, i just shut off the engine w/o waiting. I have never been satisfied with the sound of this scooter shutting down (not like the activas or the accesses), it always feels like the vehicle has stopped abruptly. Are the things i do correct? help me.

And one more question
I'll be taking the delivery of a petrol swift (Zxi) next week. I know that the diesel swift has a turbocharger. But, does the petrol one have it? Asking because, i've never felt the kick of a turbo in the petrol swift like the one in the diesel at 2k RPM.

I shouldn't have posted my question regarding the scooter here, but couldn't find a better thread. Please help. Thanks in advance.
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Old 25th June 2013, 09:30   #159
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Default Re: Why you must practice the "Idling Rule" with Turbo-Charged Cars

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Originally Posted by kaushik51094 View Post
Guys, any idea whether this has to be followed for 2 wheelers too? I own a vespa (LX 125) and since it has some starting problems, i just keep the throttle slightly open (like the auto rickshaw people) and kick it when starting for the first time. as soon as it starts, i wring the throttle fully twice or thrice but for a very short period of time so that the engine may heat up (else, the engine shuts down). Is this correct? or should i let it to idle and shut down and start 3-4 times everyday morning? and after a ride, i just shut off the engine w/o waiting. I have never been satisfied with the sound of this scooter shutting down (not like the activas or the accesses), it always feels like the vehicle has stopped abruptly. Are the things i do correct? help me.
Ideally - you should just start the scooter and let it idle. Do not throttle it. The idea behind idling is - the oil settles down when the vehicle is parked. At idling which is the minimum rpm when engine is operational, the piston and other components move slow, giving the oil enough time to lubricate all necessary parts. When you rev it up, the rpm increases and parts move fast against each other, some times without proper lubrication. If your bike isn't starting properly, you need to check the filter / carburetor setting. Use choke for cold start rather than throttle & stop it as soon as possible after the engine starts.
Not necessary to wait before turning the engine off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaushik51094 View Post
And one more question
I'll be taking the delivery of a petrol swift (Zxi) next week. I know that the diesel swift has a turbocharger. But, does the petrol one have it? Asking because, i've never felt the kick of a turbo in the petrol swift like the one in the diesel at 2k RPM.

I shouldn't have posted my question regarding the scooter here, but couldn't find a better thread. Please help. Thanks in advance.
No - the K12 petrol engine doesn't have a turbo charger. Still - remember to idle it for half a minute after at least a cold start. Same reason as the one for your Vespa. Let the lube spread everywhere.
Hope this helps.
Congrats on your new Swift. Hope to see your initial ownership report soon. Drive safe!

Last edited by Reinhard : 25th June 2013 at 09:32.
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Old 25th June 2013, 10:38   #160
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Default Re: Why you must practice the "Idling Rule" with Turbo-Charged Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaushik51094 View Post
. as soon as it starts, i wring the throttle fully twice or thrice but for a very short period of time so that the engine may heat up (else, the engine shuts down). Is this correct? or should i let it to idle and shut down and start 3-4 times everyday morning? and after a ride, i just shut off the engine w/o waiting.

.
For scooters like vespa etc, engine oil is used not only to lubricate but also to remove some amount of the heat produced in the engine block, as the engine depends upon natural air for cooling compared to a car which is water cooled. Moreover, unlike a car, a scooter does not have an oil pump which distributes oil to various parts of the engine. The scooters rely upon a simple splash lubrication system which, does take some time to get oil to all locations. Hence, do let the engine idle for a minute or two in the morning so that the idle will settle down and after that you can move. In my dio I observe that the engine is coarse for the first few minutes every morning which I believe os due to lack of oil supply.

For the last journey of the day, or after a long ride, do idle it for more than a minute. Let some of the heat produced be transferred to the oil. You cant completely cool the engine but if some amount of the heat is removed and spread to the entire crank case, the chances of oil coking up between cylinder and piston will be avoided.


[quote=thoma;3155580
I have another silly doubt. Why should the turbo really spool up when pressing the pedal in neutral? Can't it be designed to work only in gear?

?[/QUOTE]

Though you cant regulate the speed of a turbo, the boost created by it is mostly regulated in many cars depending upon the load on the engine. I read in the Swift Turbo issues thread that in neutral, boost pressure at the same RPM is lesser than when in gear.
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Old 25th June 2013, 11:41   #161
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Default Re: Why you must practice the "Idling Rule" with Turbo-Charged Cars

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
For scooters like vespa etc, engine oil is used not only to lubricate but also to remove some amount of the heat produced in the engine block, as the engine depends upon natural air for cooling compared to a car which is water cooled. Moreover, unlike a car, a scooter does not have an oil pump which distributes oil to various parts of the engine. The scooters rely upon a simple splash lubrication system which, does take some time to get oil to all locations.
Actually, on cars the oil is also used to transfer heat from certain engine parts, in conjunction with the water cooling which is specifically for cilinder head and cilinder liner cooling.

Cooling of the oil is done by means of air circulating around/underneath the engine and engine pan. Certain high performance engines will have a separate oil cooler.

I'm aware that (some?) Vespa's have no oil pump, but I believe there are plenty of scooters that do have them.

Jeroen
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Old 25th June 2013, 17:20   #162
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Default Re: Why you must practice the "Idling Rule" with Turbo-Charged Cars

What I have started doing is simple. If I am in a hurry, I start the car, change the gear to first and start moving by releasing the clutch (but not pressing the accelerator). Would move to second gear and start accelerating only after 30 seconds.
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Old 26th June 2013, 22:47   #163
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Default Re: Why you must practice the "Idling Rule" with Turbo-Charged Cars

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Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
What I have started doing is simple. If I am in a hurry, I start the car, change the gear to first and start moving by releasing the clutch (but not pressing the accelerator). Would move to second gear and start accelerating only after 30 seconds.
Diesels are low revving engine. So it has enough torque to get moving in first without the accelerator. Unladen trucks are not even started in 1st but in 2nd.

Idling rule here is, which i follow mostly are...
1. Morning idle for 5 minutes in summer and 10 minutes in winter.
2. Throughout the day : 1 minute before start and 1 minute after stop.

PS: you can use those one minute to select the track or switch off AC or picking up things etc.

Idea here is to spool the TC with oil completely.
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Old 27th June 2013, 01:09   #164
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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
1. Morning idle for 5 minutes in summer and 10 minutes in winter.
Apologies if i missed something but is this for cars or trucks? I cant fathom the fact that a 10 min idling is required in winters for any turbo charged engine, isnt it a bit too much, even 5 mins in summer is a lot.
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Old 27th June 2013, 06:04   #165
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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
Idling rule here is, which i follow mostly are...

1. Morning idle for 5 minutes in summer and 10 minutes in winter.

Idea here is to spool the TC with oil completely.
I would say 30 seconds in summer and 1 min in winter is more than sufficient for the turbo. This is what I have been following for my Ritz VDi.

5 min is a little too long isn't?

Anurag
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