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Old 30th May 2015, 21:53   #271
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post

When the problem occurs, does the engine immobiliser lamp on the instrument cluster keep blinking?

If it does, then you've isolated the problem.

It's possible that the jerk experienced while push-starting the car is enough to overcome the problem with the module's contacts, and start the car. It's not as if the module itself has gone kaput. If it did, then the car would simply not start at all by any method.
Interesting development!

Firstly RSR sir - I must say - excellent research for pointing out the possible issue (I hope this is exactly my problem - it would be an end to not knowing).
Hats Off to you!

Quite surprisingly it happened again tonight, approx 2 hrs back. (Surprising because it happened again within a short time frame as compared to last time).

The immobilizer light did not light up at all! I made sure to carry both the keys for when it happened next to rule out the ICM for sure.

Tried the 1st key - no light - didn't bother to start (i knew it wont)
Tried the 2nd key - no light - didn't bother to start (i knew it wont)
Jerked the steering column lightly
Tried the 1st key again - no light - didn't bother to start (i knew it wont)
Tried the 2nd key again - light lit up - car started.
Tried the 1st key (3rd try) - light lit up - car started.

Didn't do another cycle of tries - what if I'm stuck.

I'm surprised because this light not coming on has happened only today but it explains all the problems I've faced so far.
I'm sure this was not the case in all the previous times when the car didn't start!
Any ideas as to why this is possible?
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Old 31st May 2015, 03:06   #272
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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Originally Posted by hrbheda View Post
Interesting development!

Firstly RSR sir - I must say - excellent research for pointing out the possible issue (I hope this is exactly my problem - it would be an end to not knowing).
Hats Off to you!
Thank you!

Glad to have been of some assistance to a fellow BHPian & fellow i10 user. And there's no need to call me sir, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrbheda View Post
Quite surprisingly it happened again tonight, approx 2 hrs back. (Surprising because it happened again within a short time frame as compared to last time).

The immobilizer light did not light up at all! I made sure to carry both the keys for when it happened next to rule out the ICM for sure.
It can only be an immobiliser issue in this case. It was a smart move to carry both keys with you!

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Originally Posted by hrbheda View Post
Tried the 1st key - no light - didn't bother to start (i knew it wont)
Tried the 2nd key - no light - didn't bother to start (i knew it wont)
Jerked the steering column lightly
Tried the 1st key again - no light - didn't bother to start (i knew it wont)
Tried the 2nd key again - light lit up - car started.
Tried the 1st key (3rd try) - light lit up - car started.
So on earlier occasions, it was the sudden jerk experienced while push-starting the car that must have been the reason why the car started after throwing a tantrum.

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Originally Posted by hrbheda View Post
I'm surprised because this light not coming on has happened only today but it explains all the problems I've faced so far.
I'm sure this was not the case in all the previous times when the car didn't start!
Any ideas as to why this is possible?
I'm not sure why the immobiliser lamp did not indicate the problem on earlier occasions.

In any case, I think we have isolated the problem to the immobiliser module or SMARTRA unit.

My guess {based on the immobiliser lamp not illuminating, and the (steering) jerk allowing the car to start} is that the issue is probably with the antenna coil, rather than with the immobiliser module itself. Accessing the antenna coil is easy, as it's located right next to the key cylinder. Accessing the module is not-so-easy, as it's located behind the instrument cluster and involves much more work.

You can get your mechanic to remove, examine and refit the antenna coil tightly. At most, it may require a replacement of the antenna coil (worst case scenario). Here's how it can be accessed. The image is from an LHD Elantra's workshop manual, but the mechanism shouldn't be too different from that on an RHD i10:

"My Car Won't Start" | What To Do-image.jpg

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Originally Posted by hrbheda View Post
One question regarding idling - on a cold start, the engine revs to about 1000-1100 rpm for a few minutes as compared to the usual 700-800 rpm. Is that okay?
Except for the infamous steering rattle all is okay.
Yep, the engine revving to a slightly higher rpm on a cold start and then settling down to a normal idle is perfectly alright.

My i10 too experiences the infamous steering rattle when traversing broken roads. In hot & humid Chennai, the A/C has to work overtime. I always set the fan speed to 4 or 3 and have a cool blast of air directed at the face in order to make myself comfortable. The steering rattle nearly gets drowned out, so I've decided to live with it.

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Generally when the car goes to the HASS for a service i tell them to do the injector and throttle body cleaning. I give the car to the HASS once a year since it ends up being quite expensive for no logical reason. Once they gave me a quote for about 1.5 lac for suspension, clutch, steering rack+EPS motor overhaul.(Mind you, my car has done only 32000 kms.)

Once it goes to my trusted local mechanic. He oversees the car like his own and his family has been looking after our cars for the past 35yrs!
Our i10 hasn't stepped into a HASS for years now, thereby preventing my pocket from experiencing the sudden volume loss syndrome once every year.

Last edited by RSR : 31st May 2015 at 03:35.
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Old 31st May 2015, 16:03   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSR View Post

I think we have isolated the problem to the immobiliser module or SMARTRA unit.

My guess {based on the immobiliser lamp not illuminating, and the (steering) jerk allowing the car to start} is that the issue is probably with the antenna coil, rather than with the immobiliser module itself. Accessing the antenna coil is easy, as it's located right next to the key cylinder. Accessing the module is not-so-easy, as it's located behind the instrument cluster and involves much more work.

You can get your mechanic to remove, examine and refit the antenna coil tightly. At most, it may require a replacement of the antenna coil (worst case scenario).
I used an ELM327 Bluetooth adapter and used the torque pro app to try and get a code. After a few tries. I got a fault code which I looked up on the internet. It seems to be a generic code hence the scanner could retrieve it. It took a few tries because I had to wait for the immobiliser light to not light up at all when I scanned it.

I asked my mechanic to check it out. He said if he replaces the antenna coil, the keys need to be reprogrammed and that the best option would be to take it to the HASS.

Hope the SA there gets the same message. ( I won't show him what I got though )

I have booked an appointment at the HASS to have it checked out.
Lets see how it goes!
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Old 31st May 2015, 16:30   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSR View Post
In any case, I think we have isolated the problem to the immobiliser module or SMARTRA unit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrbheda View Post
I used an ELM327 Bluetooth adapter and used the torque pro app to try and get a code.
Week this link be of any help?

http://www.autohex.net/dtc-help/hyun...011/376/P1690/
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Old 31st May 2015, 17:56   #275
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I think this explains how the key is programmed to the ECU.
Yes i guess its useful for technicians who know what they are doing!
Also useful for enthusiasts trying to learn how it works!
Thanks for sharing!
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Old 2nd June 2015, 16:20   #276
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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Originally Posted by hrbheda View Post
I used an ELM327 Bluetooth adapter and used the torque pro app to try and get a code. After a few tries. I got a fault code which I looked up on the internet.

I asked my mechanic to check it out. He said if he replaces the antenna coil, the keys need to be reprogrammed and that the best option would be to take it to the HASS.

I have booked an appointment at the HASS to have it checked out.
Lets see how it goes!
It's good that we have a diagnostic trouble code now! It confirms beyond doubt that the problem is due to some fault with the immobiliser/SMARTRA unit. This also makes troubleshooting that much easier.

I'm not sure the keys need to be re-programmed after replacing only the antenna coil. I guess the antenna coil itself is a "dumb" part i.e. it merely receives the signal from the transponder (present inside the key) and transfers it to the SMARTRA module which performs the "smarter" stuff.

However, I do agree with the mechanic that taking the car to a HASS is the best bet! Your mechanic would not have the required tools should any complications arise. Also, it's best not to ask/force a mechanic to perform any task that he honestly says he isn't comfortable with.

I hope the HASS guy performs a full, proper and thorough troubleshooting according to the workshop manual & any other related resource (such as a technical service bulletin) issued by Hyundai.

Please ensure that he does not take the easy way out by immediately asking you to replace the entire immobiliser assembly, keys and antenna coil, as it would surely cost you a tidy sum.

Unfortunately, according to the experiences of folks (mostly abroad, mainly in Europe) who have reported this issue on other forums, the fix to this problem varies. A few have had the problem sorted by mere re-programming without replacing anything, some have had to replace the antenna coil, and others have had to replace the immobiliser module.

Let's hope it turns out to be an inexpensive fix in your case, as your car is out of warranty. Good luck!

Last edited by RSR : 2nd June 2015 at 16:41.
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Old 2nd June 2015, 19:54   #277
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSR View Post
It's good that we have a diagnostic trouble code now! It confirms beyond doubt that the problem is due to some fault with the immobiliser/SMARTRA unit. This also makes troubleshooting that much easier.

I'm not sure the keys need to be re-programmed after replacing only the antenna coil. I guess the antenna coil itself is a "dumb" part i.e. it merely receives the signal from the transponder (present inside the key) and transfers it to the SMARTRA module which performs the "smarter" stuff.

However, I do agree with the mechanic that taking the car to a HASS is the best bet! Your mechanic would not have the required tools should any complications arise. Also, it's best not to ask/force a mechanic to perform any task that he honestly says he isn't comfortable with.

I hope the HASS guy performs a full, proper and thorough troubleshooting according to the workshop manual & any other related resource (such as a technical service bulletin) issued by Hyundai.

Please ensure that he does not take the easy way out by immediately asking you to replace the entire immobiliser assembly, keys and antenna coil, as it would surely cost you a tidy sum.

Unfortunately, according to the experiences of folks (mostly abroad, mainly in Europe) who have reported this issue on other forums, the fix to this problem varies. A few have had the problem sorted by mere re-programming without replacing anything, some have had to replace the antenna coil, and others have had to replace the immobiliser module.

Let's hope it turns out to be an inexpensive fix in your case, as your car is out of warranty. Good luck!
Update!
I gave my car to the HASS on 1/6/15 in the morning and explained in deep detail the exact situation i was facing.
He understood and even asked some counter questions since he had another i20 that had come facing similar issues so he wanted some clarification.

He had his mechanic bring out the G-Scan and started diagnosing. After about and hour of doing various tests he couldn't pin point the problem.
I was with the mechanic when these tests were being done since i was sure they would diagnose and order the part and i could take the car back for the day! The SA is a known guy and quite technically inclined.
More on that a bit later.

Finally he said he needed to keep the car with him since he needed the immobilizer light to not come up and then only could they diagnose the problem. Since the light was always there at the workshop the G Scan didn't find any fault code.
My fan belt had started to fray so I told him to change it as it would save me a day later on and he had the car anyway.

Today morning (2/6/15) he called me to give an update - nothing diagnosed yet!
Finally i gave him the code that i got and told him to check the parts accordingly. He was surprised how i got hold of a G Scan and how i got a code! I explained everything and he said he would gladly check it out. He also explained that some times tightening the plugs and harness solves the problem and that that was more likely since the SMARTRA3 and the ICM both were okay and so were their respective connectors.

He took the initiative and said he would have the connectors to the antenna coil and another part (forgot the name) beside it removed and checked and tightly fitted.
He also didn't charge me for diagnosing since they couldn't find the problem and told me if it would happen again I should call him and he will send his technician with the GScan to find the problem. He specifically told me that unless necessary he wont replace any of the components. (unlike some other HASSs I've been to before).

I trust this particular SA since he is technically inclined and keeps up with my sometimes particularity regarding the servicing etc of my cars. He also commented that very few owners that come to his workshop are so meticulous about noting what exactly the problems they face before coming to him!
He actually told me to bring the OBD scanner since he hadn't seen one being used by anyone except the workshops.

Lets see if and when the issue repeats itself! I hope its resolved with the tightening of the connectors!
Will keep you guys updated!!

Last edited by hrbheda : 2nd June 2015 at 19:59.
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Old 2nd June 2015, 21:48   #278
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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He also explained that some times tightening the plugs and harness solves the problem and that that was more likely since the SMARTRA3 and the ICM both were okay and so were their respective connectors.

He took the initiative and said he would have the connectors to the antenna coil and another part (forgot the name) beside it removed and checked and tightly fitted.
Phew, good that the SMARTRA and ICM are fine else your bills would by the sky.

I respect the SA's initiatives and way of working rather than just replace parts which is generally their SOP! Surprising the G-Scan couldn't get onto any DTC from your ECU whereas you could get the P1690 being displayed. If I can ask, which OBD reader did you use?

So is the car back to normal state?
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Old 2nd June 2015, 21:56   #279
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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Phew, good that the SMARTRA and ICM are fine else your bills would by the sky.

I respect the SA's initiatives and way of working rather than just replace parts which is generally their SOP! Surprising the G-Scan couldn't get onto any DTC from your ECU whereas you could get the P1690 being displayed. If I can ask, which OBD reader did you use?

So is the car back to normal state?
I got the code after about 1.5 hrs of using various options in the Torque Pro Settings! Also when i scanned, the immobilizer light didn't light up so i presume that's why i got the code where as when the car was at the service station this problem never occurred. The car started first time even after bring kept there overnight.

Otherwise the car is working perfect. I am attaching the picture of the reader that i used! Hope it helps!
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Old 2nd June 2015, 22:03   #280
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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I got the code after about 1.5 hrs of using various options in the Torque Pro Settings! Also when i scanned, the immobilizer light didn't light up so i presume that's why i got the code where as when the car was at the service station this problem never occurred. The car started first time even after bring kept there overnight.

I am attaching the picture of the reader that i used! Hope it helps!
So the immobilizer light would have played fault for the HASS guys preventing them from getting the code but what beats me is the ECU stores DTC that it finds so that it can be viewed later on IF it hasn't been cleared.

Did you clear the DTC after you got it on Torque?

Thank you for the OBD picture. I too am using the same since 4 years and is plugged into my car 90% of the time. A great tool for any person who wants to save time and money from visiting the ASC.
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Old 2nd June 2015, 22:14   #281
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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So the immobilizer light would have played fault for the HASS guys preventing them from getting the code but what beats me is the ECU stores DTC that it finds so that it can be viewed later on IF it hasn't been cleared.

Did you clear the DTC after you got it on Torque?

Thank you for the OBD picture. I too am using the same since 4 years and is plugged into my car 90% of the time. A great tool for any person who wants to save time and money from visiting the ASC.
I did not clear the code.
My rear left ABS sensor in my i20 had a problem. I found out the code using the scanner and cleared it before having it replaced. (Surprisingly, the sensor itself cannot be replaced. You need to change the whole hub on which the wheel sits!)

I bought the scanner for this problem so was testing the different features.
I didnt know what would happen if i cleared the code. The ABS Light shut off and came back on and stayed on. Clearing the code didn't help. Finally it was cleared by the HASS after replacement and it works fine after that.

You are right, the ECU stores the code until it is cleared.

Is it possible that when the light is on, the code must be getting cleared on its own - on account of no problem in the system?
And i got the code when the light was off - indicating a problem in the system?
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Old 2nd June 2015, 22:22   #282
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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Is it possible that when the light is on, the code must be getting cleared on its own - on account of no problem in the system?

And i got the code when the light was off - indicating a problem in the system?
Light ON - A Fault/disturbance (DTC) is being diagnosed by the ECU hence a warning to the driver to stop before any further damage happens to the car.

Light OFF - System/fault being checked, addressed and solved, DTC being cleared, the light will not be shown.

You getting the code is irrespective of the light as the ECU stores it so that will be displayed even if the engine isn't running.
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Old 2nd June 2015, 22:31   #283
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Light ON - A Fault/disturbance (DTC) is being diagnosed by the ECU hence a warning to the driver to stop before any further damage happens to the car.

Light OFF - System/fault being checked, addressed and solved, DTC being cleared, the light will not be shown.

You getting the code is irrespective of the light as the ECU stores it so that will be displayed even if the engine isn't running.
In case of the i10, if the immobilizer light is on when you switch the key to ignition on and subsequently turns off when you start the car it means the system recognizes the key and will let you start the car.

If the light doesn't turn on at all when you turn the key to the ignition on position it means the car wont start.

In case of all other lights it works as you mentioned. I can't think of any other reason why I got the code and they didn't.

Of course i may be wrong somewhere.
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Old 2nd June 2015, 22:44   #284
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In case of the i10, if the immobilizer light is on when you switch the key to ignition on and subsequently turns off when you start the car it means the system recognizes the key and will let you start the car.

If the light doesn't turn on at all when you turn the key to the ignition on position it means the car wont start.

In case of all other lights it works as you mentioned. I can't think of any other reason why I got the code and they didn't.
A quote from the Maruti Swift owners manual:

Quote:
Immobilizer System:
The key communicates the identification code to the vehicle when the ignition switch is turned to the “ON” position.

If the immobilizer system light blinks when the ignition switch is in the “ON” position, the engine will not start.

NOTE:
If this light blinks, turn the ignition switch to the “LOCK” position, then turn it back to the “ON” position. If the light still blinks with the ignition switch turned to the “ON” position, there may be something wrong with your key or with the immobilizer system. Contact your MARUTI SUZUKI authorized dealer to inspect the system.
As far as I can understand, the light will come ON during the ignition and later turn OFF when the engine is started.

Now IF the light still remains ON after the engine has started then it is trouble time i.e. there is a fault in that system needing inspection from the ASC. This is what is mentioned in the manual too.
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Old 2nd June 2015, 23:03   #285
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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A quote from the Maruti Swift owners manual:


As far as I can understand, the light will come ON during the ignition and later turn OFF when the engine is started.

Now IF the light still remains ON after the engine has started then it is trouble time i.e. there is a fault in that system needing inspection from the ASC. This is what is mentioned in the manual too.
That may be possible. But even before i scanned, when the car started after the non-start problem, no system lights whatsoever came on indicating a problem.

In case of Hyundai (as well as Maruti), what you explained is absolutely correct regarding all other systems - ABS, seat belts, SRS, check engine, battery etc.

Now, in case of the immobilizer i don't know how the Hyundai system conveys the message that there is a fault in the system.
I'm perplexed since if what you mentioned is indeed applicable for the immobilizer,the light should stay on even after starting.

There is nothing in the user manual mentioned specifically regarding the immobilizer and what happens when it has a problem. Only how to activate and deactivate it and what not to do to confuse the system.
Though there is clear operating procedure mentioned regarding other system lights. Surprising!

RSR, any input regarding this discussion ?
Other i10 users / bhpians - any inputs ?
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