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Old 5th September 2015, 19:40   #331
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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Sorry for getting back so very late! Was busy with various exams and work related stuff!

When I went to the ASS for getting the keys reprogrammed, The technician told me that until a specific key related code comes up on their G-Scan, they cannot re program the keys since the code needed to do so is given by the factory and the factory doesn't give the code unless there is a code or you actually purchase a new key. I was confused since this is the first time I'm hearing about such a procedure.

To cross-check, I called up another service centre and they too said the same thing regarding the keys. This second ASS was not even ready to diagnose the problem systematically. They were more into - " We will scan and report accordingly." Even after explaining the whole problem for over and hour they weren't ready to do it.
Surprisingly being only a Hyundai ASS, they also service all kinds of makes and models!

I let the issue go for the time being since this non-start issue came up only once after the cleaning and re-fitting process and has not occurred since (touchwood!!).
In Delhi at least you can find shops who recode the keys. My son lost key for Honda City. When the A.S.S. refused to give just a new key, he located the shop, and they sold him a key, which they coded to the lock. It seems that there at least 6 codes in the immobilizer, used for replacement keys.

Come to think of it, now a days thieves steal cars with immobilizers, they must have access to similar facilities (portable coders for spare keys?)
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Old 5th September 2015, 21:56   #332
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In Delhi at least you can find shops who recode the keys. My son lost key for Honda City. When the A.S.S. refused to give just a new key, he located the shop, and they sold him a key, which they coded to the lock. It seems that there at least 6 codes in the immobilizer, used for replacement keys.

Come to think of it, now a days thieves steal cars with immobilizers, they must have access to similar facilities (portable coders for spare keys?)
There are various shops that do such kind of work. I've got a replacement key fob for one of my cars from them since it did not involve any coding related stuff. The original replacement was quoted at Rs 12000 plus taxes.

I would first have the ASS confirm what the problem is since my problem is not that usual. I wouldn't want to trust the outside shops.
These shops can do the basic stuff but i wouldn't go to them since its a tricky issue. IMO these shops are not too experienced to actually troubleshoot the issue systematically. The ASS guys are IMO maybe a bit better.

If I do get an experienced and knowledgeable person then I would surely visit them.

Last edited by hrbheda : 5th September 2015 at 21:57.
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Old 8th September 2015, 22:29   #333
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Default The car cranks but NOT STARTING

Dear friends,

My fiat Palio 1.2 nv Petrol ELPS Dec-2004 (Indian version) is accompanying me seamlessly till date since 11 th Dec. 2004. Alertly maintained through genuine components and consumables. Recently,it gave me a new type (for me it may be new!) of problem despite regular maintenance.
This has happened since Dt.28-08-2015 and the issue still persists!

ISSUE / PROBLEM : ------------ The car cranks but NOT STARTING

On the day all of a sudden the car stopped on the road denying to start. On applying self, it simply cranks but not starting. Fortunately the distance of my home was just a 200 meters and we pushed the car to owner's residence. Till date following actions are taken to resolve the issue from this point of time. I am narrating in sequential steps ? what I did.

ACTIONS TAKEN :

(1). I measured the Battery voltage which was around 12 v. Got it recharged at a battery service station and reinstalled. The car started and I also took a round of about 5-6 Km. Next day I went out for some domestic work with the car. Stopped my-self at couple of places to do something. Finally at one stop it tucked- denied to restart! - I assumed that the issue may be due to the Battery (Exide Matrix DIN 50) which would have completed its life-cycle as it was in action uninterruptedly since dt.03-03-2015 ? Thus the about 3.5 years span is I think sufficient to replace. - So finally I put the car where it was and replaced the old one with a brand NEW EXIDE MILEAGE DIN-50 with in a couple of days. Reinstalled the New Battery but the car did not start!

(2). Next day I went there to tow the car and put an effort to start by self ? Fortunately it started and could run about a Km. And re-reached at Home destination, it continued idlelly after reaching for about 5 minutes and stopped it self. Then could not re-start! - simply cranks. (I thanks God & The Car that I am saved of laborious towing efforts !)

(3).I checked and cleaned all the FUSES (Fuses inside the car as well as in the Engine bay -i.e. around battery). All are o.k.

(4). I also checked RELAYS specially both of Fuel Pump (4-Terminals, 12V 30A Red coloured mounted behind Battery) and of Ignition (5-Terminals, 12V 30A, Yellow mounted on the Fuse Panel inside the car). I also Tested both through multimeter and applying 12V supply. Clicking and Resistance measurements, Open & Closed circuit status were checked through their Terminals labled as 30, 85, 86, 87, and 87a etc. - Both are found O.K.

(5). This took TWO days. After that the car Started but it run for some minutes, meanwhile the Alternator was checked as under:
* Car OFF ---> the New Battery V measured was in the range of 12.7V -to ? 13V
* Car ON ---> made all lights, A.C., Music System on and full possible load was given. At that time the Battery terminal showed 13.7V and making all these OFF it exhibited 14.6V
Thus higher V output then that of the Battery indicates that the Alternator is working properly.
Meanwhile the car itself went OFF ! Thanks God that I could checkup the Alternator ? it is O.K.
It was observed during the above running that effect of lever was not uniform. At higher lever the rousing was becoming poor/weak. - actually it should not be so.

(6). Fuel flow was checked through a valve on the injector rail. The car was not starting, so just keeping Key on MAR, it was showing flush of petrol and then stops. 4-5 times repeatedly this was checked. This indicates that fuel is reaching up to injectors and its path is most probably not chocked/blocked. This also indicated that the fuel pump is also working. (Value of Pressure could not be measured without appropriate Pressure Gauge device ? This is the limitation. I shell be obliged if some one will give me specifications and sources for this Pressure measurement device/kit available in India).

(7). To check the physical status of the Fuel Pump, I opened the cover below the rear seat and found that all the connectors, wires and the whole body of the pump is o.k. I cleaned and repacked as it was.

(8). I also doubt on Inertial Fuel Cutoff Switch, but I could not loacate it.(Will some one help me to find it?). However there are very rare chances of happening this possibility as otherwise the car would have not been started randomly (twice up till now. - Now not starting).

(9). I have also pressed all the connectors to put them all in properly gripped and tight position to rule out any possibility of loose connection.

(10). I have also OBD II device recently procured but unable to use it for want of a suitable and appropriate software. The one supplied with the device is also not working and the cause may be my limitation about the COM port understanding. (Some guidance is also requested on how to set/select COM PORT ?).

I will also upload some pictures about above information in due course. Till then bear with me and PLEASE guide me WHAT TO DO next. (Of course still I doubt for INJECTORS and COILS).

Your response suitable for DIY basis in these issues will be highly appreciated.

Thanks to all in anticipation.

Navin Talati / 08-09-2015
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Old 9th September 2015, 10:57   #334
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Default Re: The car cranks but NOT STARTING

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Originally Posted by Navin Talati View Post
I will also upload some pictures about above information in due course. Till then bear with me and PLEASE guide me WHAT TO DO next. (Of course still I doubt for INJECTORS and COILS).

Your response suitable for DIY basis in these issues will be highly appreciated.

Thanks to all in anticipation.

Navin Talati / 08-09-2015
Hi Navin,
You have done quite a bit of sensible trouble shooting already. Injectors and coils could be. But I would suggest to try and get the OBD analyzer going. Preferably one that reads your car manufacturers specific codes. it will save a lot of time

The one other thing that springs to mind is a wonky crank shaft sensor. On many cars they are known to cause starting problems when they go wonky.

Again you will need an OBD analyzer to diagnose, unless you have a spare one and can replace and see what happens.

Try and wriggle the sensor wiring a bit, clean the connector see what happens.

Good luck

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 9th September 2015 at 10:59.
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Old 9th September 2015, 11:07   #335
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Default Re: The car cranks but NOT STARTING

Navin, Your troubleshooting is indeed very thorough, and I am going to take a printout for future reference in case I ever have starting trouble.

One thing that you might not have checked is the spark plugs. Since the battery, alternator, fuel pump, fuses are all fine, I can only suggest taking a look at the spark plugs itself. Perhaps they are fouled. Please clean and check.

Hope your ride is back to normal working condition soon.
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Old 9th September 2015, 11:13   #336
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Default Re: The car cranks but NOT STARTING

You've already done quite a bit of troubleshooting! I would look into the coils only, if you're not getting any CEL. (I'm assuming you aren't).

If you do have a CEL, then get the scanner and have it scanned, it could be your CS Sensor! (I doubt!)

Hope it helps!

Last edited by ssjr0498 : 9th September 2015 at 11:15.
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Old 9th September 2015, 11:18   #337
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Default Re: The car cranks but NOT STARTING

You might want to check the coil pack, wires and the plugs. These engines are known to have a weak spot there.

How much has the car done? Maybe a compression test also would be a good idea when you remove the plugs. Remember to disconnect the fuel pump wires and keep the throttle fully open while doing the test.
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Old 9th September 2015, 23:39   #338
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Default Re: The car cranks but NOT STARTING

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Originally Posted by Navin Talati View Post
Your response suitable for DIY basis in these issues...
The fuel supply seems to be erratic. Before embarking on more elaborate DIY diagnosis, try this:
The fuel pump inside the tank has a metal filter net at its lower end. Remove the pump and check it for partial choking. Also check inside the tank for accumulated dirt and crud. Clean the net thoroughly with an old toothbrush. Clean tank (not an easy DIY). Filter the fuel through cloth and refill in tank. Also replace the inline fine filter. Reassemble everything and see if this solves your problem.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 9th September 2015 at 23:44.
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Old 10th September 2015, 00:29   #339
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Friends,
Today I checked the ignition coils using multimeter as per the procedure mentioned in Fuel System - Bravo-Brava 1581 , 16V , '98 range. Primary coils gives resistance of 1.3 & 1.5 Ohms while Secondary coils gives this values of 7600 & 7570 Ohms. It is with in the usual range so this may not be the cause.
As a next step I am to check RPM/Crank shaft Sensor. Some one is requested to let me know the actual location of this Sensor in Fiat Palio 1.2 nv petrol. Picture will be highly appreciated.
Navin Talati / 09-09-2015

One more request to all.
I have recently procured OBD-II Bluetooth but I am unable to connect it due to unawareness of configuring the COM Port. Can anybody help me in detail for this procedure preferably with screen-shots of the steps?
Navin Talati / 09-09-2015

Last edited by bblost : 10th September 2015 at 01:34.
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Old 10th September 2015, 10:04   #340
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Navin, would the symptoms be similar if the starter motor was defective ?
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Old 10th September 2015, 10:19   #341
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Car starting some times and not at others. Is non starting more likely when engine is hot? Your narration indicates this happened twice at least. I am assuming it cranks while hot but does not start. Does long self crank start it?
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Old 11th September 2015, 19:14   #342
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Friends,

After the lots of exercise as mentioned in the my initial post #1, I checked the Ignition coils. I opened all the four terminals ((carefully pulled out) and just cleaned. There are two coils each for Two spark plugs. I checked resistances in the primary and secondary windings and found with in limit. Primary had very low (1.3 & 1.5 Ohms) and Secondary had high (7600 and 7570 Ohms). Then tried to start the car but it did not!

Yesterday I checked the connection of lamda sensor. I found it on the rear wall of the engine room mounted below the ECU. I opened in up and measured the resistance There are FOUR wires going in to the Lamda Sensor mounted on the upstream of the catalytic converter. They are Black, Grey, and two Whites. The resistance between the TWO WHITE wires foun about 3.3 Ohms. Which seems in to the range. Then reconnected as it was. Then I tried to start the car, Fortunately it STARTED. I has extremely happy, assumed the loose connection maight be the culprit!

Here ONE Important thing I noted is the sound of the engine was considerably low as compared to its roaring for last 11 years. The matter was really notable. And it induced me to believe that there is something else which prevents the car to startup and not the lamda sensor. The car became little silent compare to its usual engine sound. Even at this stage I continued idling for an hour and meanshile it got stopped Twice. But could be started immediately by its usual key. (probably there might be some switch off device/system activable if the vehicle runs idle for longer time I think so.). During this mode of little success I not dare to take it on the road but could not resist myself in taking 5-6 round around the cross road traffic island circle totallin to about 0.4-0.5 km. It was run in 1 st and 2 nd gear only. I started the car 5 to 6 times during last 24 hrs. I started just in a single key pujnch! - Though the engine sound was not acceptable as its normal one it is giving till date.

Today I reopen the Lamda Sensor connection and reconnected and the car could be restarted. No problem. I was affraid through its sound that on road it may not perform normally and hance further investigation could not be avoided. As its first step, today I opened the connector of Rpm/Crank sensor which I found just handy on the engine head cover near the engine oiol filling point and mounted on the timing belt cover. There are THREE terminals. The resistance I tried to measure amongst them but could not measure as noe of the combination was giving any stable value. As per my knowledge through reading general literature there should be some 1100 to 1400 Ohms or around this valye there should be between the ends of the sensor. But I could bot. Again I refitted the connector. When tried to start, it REFUSED ! - So again I am there where I was due to this issue. I have also tried using Both the KEYs of the car. Nothing could be gained.

I am also trying through OBD port. I have got ELM 327 Bluetooth Interface and 3-to-16 pin converter but I am unable to connect it due to issue of COM ports and Protocol which I am unable to resolve because of the inability to understand different messages and warnings it gives.

Your helping guidance is direly needed.

Navin Talati / 11-09-2015

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Originally Posted by sudev View Post
Car starting some times and not at others. Is non starting more likely when engine is hot? Your narration indicates this happened twice at least. I am assuming it cranks while hot but does not start. Does long self crank start it?
No, there is no effect of long self.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 12th September 2015 at 11:27. Reason: Back to back posts merged. Please edit your post within the 30 minute edit window to add/edit your posts.
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Old 12th September 2015, 11:08   #343
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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Originally Posted by Navin Talati View Post


Your helping guidance is direly needed.


Navin Talati / 11-09-2015
You have done extensive work on fault finding but I don't know if you have checked the Ignition switch. Pl. check that by routing the wires directly to a simple on/off switch. I don't know if this method works in new-gen cars.
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Old 12th September 2015, 17:58   #344
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Friends,
Proceeding towrad the forward path of the further investigation about fault prdiction. I tried the recheck the status of the RPM & TDC/Crank shaft Sensor.
First of all I disconnected the male-female connectors very carefully. There are numbers 1, 2 & 3 alloted to each wires mounted. 1 is Black for Signal, 2 is White for Earth, and 3 is Black tapped for Shield Anti-interference Sheath. Female scoket lines are connected toward Control Unit / ECU and the Male scoket (with Pins) lines are going towar the sensor.


Male Scoket:
I carefully measured the resistance between all the 1, 2, and 3 terminals and found value of 0.7 Ohms just neglegible or say the Resistance is almost ZERO. This implies that the Sensor would have SHORTED CONNECTION. Usually there must be a considerable Resistance value between 1 & 2. Refering the literature it is found that For Bravo-Brava, 1370, 12V has this value between 774 to 946 Ohms where as the same for its 1581, 16V, (1998) model has between 1134 to 1386 Ohms.


If we assume correctly that the Sensor is failed, there may be TWO possibilities. Either the Sensor would have completed its life-span or some complications or malfunctions from input sources side would have make it dead! So that atleast we should check on Female Scoket side to predict something.


Female Scoket:
(a).When the car is OFF (no key/totally off), there is ZERO voltage and INFINITE ohms amongst allt the three terminals. - implies that there is no hidden or unknown power input to the device.
(b). When the car is OFF (no key/totally off), The Battery voltage = 13.45 V
When the Key is on MAR (i.e.Power ON to the system), The Battery voltage = 12.43 V, implies that the whole circuit network is active and that causes the drop of about 1.1 V in the Battery. At this MAR position, the terminal voltages were measured. Between 1 & 2, as -0.8V, Between 2 & 3, as +2.3 V, and Between 1 & 3, as +1.4 V. Values of V for points 1, 2, and 3 were also measured with reference to the Battery's + and terminals. At this time Negative probe of Multimeter was kept on Battery side. Terminals 1, 2, anbd 3 gave -9.3V, -8.85V and -12.41V respectively with respect to Battery's +. Terminals 1, 2, anbd 3 gave +1.3V, +2.29V and 0.0 V respectively with respect to Battery's -.
From this behaviour in the test data output I feel to conclude that upstream side has not any issue which may cause the failure of the Sensor.
I am uploading the pictures for your ready reference.
I would like to have your comments, advise, and further guidance on how to proceed. - I request you for the same to give an exhaustive feed-back on the issue and draw my kind attention toward anything I am missing.


Hope to hear soon from you.


Navin Talati / 12-09-2015

The pictures are attached here.
navin talati
Attached Thumbnails
"My Car Won't Start" | What To Do-rpm-tdc-crank-shaft-sensor-connectors.jpg  

"My Car Won't Start" | What To Do-rpm_tdc_crank-sensor-tested.jpg  


Last edited by manson : 12th September 2015 at 19:37. Reason: Please avoid back to back posts by using the edit tab whilst posting within an interval of 20 minutes.
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Old 12th September 2015, 20:27   #345
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Method in madness. I like this approach. The position sensor could be showing resistance on a particular shaft position?
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