Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 13th September 2015, 08:30   #346
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,792
Thanked: 5,360 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navin Talati View Post

If we assume correctly that the Sensor is failed, there may be TWO possibilities. Either the Sensor would have completed its life-span or some complications or malfunctions from input sources side would have make it dead! So that atleast we should check on Female Scoket side to predict something.

I would like to have your comments, advise, and further guidance on how to proceed. - I request you for the same to give an exhaustive feed-back on the issue and draw my kind attention toward anything I am missing.
i
Hi Navin,
Well done. As I suggested earlier on, I'm pretty sure your CPS has failed.Although there are some different CPS around, as far as I'm aware they should all read at least 500-900 ohm resistance, so looks like yours has bought it. Not sure if you can conclude anything from the measurements on the female socket.

These CPS have a tendency to just fail. The symptoms are amongst others, difficult starting, especially when hot.

So I think you should get a replacement.

You have done an excellent job of trouble shooting. Very impressive. One thing though, I would suggest you try and get that OBD going! It would have saved you a lot of time, because it would have given you the error code immediately! So this is also a good case that shows why you should always hook any car up to an OBD analyser before doing anything. But of course, if you don't have one, this is the way to go.

Good luck.

Jeroen
Jeroen is online now   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 14th September 2015, 09:40   #347
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,526
Thanked: 10,272 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navin Talati View Post
Male Scoket:
I carefully measured the resistance between all the 1, 2, and 3 terminals and found value of 0.7 Ohms just neglegible or say the Resistance is almost ZERO. This implies that the Sensor would have SHORTED CONNECTION. Usually there must be a considerable Resistance value between 1 & 2. Refering the literature it is found that For Bravo-Brava, 1370, 12V has this value between 774 to 946 Ohms where as the same for its 1581, 16V, (1998) model has between 1134 to 1386 Ohms.


If we assume correctly that the Sensor is failed, there may be TWO possibilities. Either the Sensor would have completed its life-span or some complications or malfunctions from input sources side would have make it dead! So that atleast we should check on Female Scoket side to predict something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Although there are some different CPS around, as far as I'm aware they should all read at least 500-900 ohm resistance, so looks like yours has bought it.
These CPS have a tendency to just fail. The symptoms are amongst others, difficult starting, especially when hot.

So I think you should get a replacement.
Assuming that the CPS has failed (bad resistance reading) in cold condition, the car should entirely refuse to start (and not start occasionally). In addition, a failed sensor will definitely show a CEL and error code, which is not happening.
SS-Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th September 2015, 15:58   #348
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,792
Thanked: 5,360 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Assuming that the CPS has failed (bad resistance reading) in cold condition, the car should entirely refuse to start (and not start occasionally). In addition, a failed sensor will definitely show a CEL and error code, which is not happening.
Not necessarily. Just because there is no/less restance doesnt mean the sensor work. These sensors are in essence a coil. So it works on induction and not ohm resistance perse. But from a practical point of view measuring the resistance tends to be pretty accurate indication for finding a wonky sensor.

The CEL doesn't necessarily come on either, but you might still find a code. In order for the ECU to pop the CEL various parameters need to be out of whack for a certain duration of time and or number of revolutions. I dont think an unsuccesfull crank will ever pop a CEL.

Not all error codes lead to a CEL either. As we speak my Jaguar is running with several codes.

Never the less, you know my mantra by now: always hook up to an OBD analyser first, preferably a car specific one. The reason is simple, if it does show a code, that would be your obvious first port of call to look into further. So it saves a huge amount of time. But if there are no codes you still need to resort to basic trouble shooting and Navin has done a very commendable job.

Diagnosing a faulty CPS can be quite an elusive art actually. Some cars/engines are very prone to them going faulty. My Jeep Cherokee is notorious for it and many Cherokee owner would keep a few spare CPSs on board just in case.

What I learned from the GM forums is that on many GM cars/engines they go faulty without ever producing a CEL or a code for that matter.

So from a trouble shoot point of view, not always a clear cut case, unfortunately. However, the resistance being so low is likely to be an indication something is amiss. So it appears its the only thing Navin, through very extensive and well thought out, trouble shooting has found that is looking suspicious. So it might worth swapping the sensor.

A lot of forum also mention that the sensor might be out of allignement. Although this could be true I have yet to experience it myself or hear from anybody. Because it would mean the CPS would have to be hit by something. If anything what might be possible is that the mounting, (e.g. bracket or bolt) might have come a bit unstuck? But again, that should not affect the resistance.

Will be interesting to hear from Navin what he finds to be the root cause.
Jeroen is online now   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2015, 00:42   #349
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Rajkot (India)
Posts: 8
Thanked: 5 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Respected Friends,

In response to my above posts and looking in depth of the issue, technically it was concluded by most of us that the RPM & TDS / Crank shaft Sensor may be the cause of the issue. Measurement of resistances amongst all the three terminals was showing almost nil resistance, means the sensor is sorted. So I procured a new one original from 99rpm and today installed the same myself!

The car STARTED today. Happy days are here again.

I took a round of about 6-7 Km as test drive to assess the situation after this replacement. Could not find any thing odd in the engine and cars running. Still I think to take observations for a couple of weeks and let me check the real situation. ... So I am keeping my watch and observation and shell let you all know what happens.

After a couple of weeks, I shall upload all the detail with pictures of installation of the Sending Unit for your further knowledge and information.

Meanwhile, I would like to request you all to guide me further, that which more sensors should I check and where are they located in Palio 1.2 NV petrol car?

I am awaiting for your Feedback regarding additional SENSORS.

Thanks you all once again.
Navin Talati / 18-09-2015

Last edited by GTO : 26th September 2015 at 12:30. Reason: Removing unwanted codes, all caps sentences and spacing. Please do not copy-paste contents from other word processors - it is best to type directly on the forum.
Navin Talati is offline   Reply With Quote Received Infraction
Old 19th September 2015, 06:36   #350
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,792
Thanked: 5,360 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navin Talati View Post
Meanwhile, I would like to request you all to guide me further, that which more sensors should I check and where are they located in Palio 1.2 NV petrol car?
Hi Navin,
I suggest, unless the problem pops up again, you have solved the problem! At this point in time I don't think any further trouble shooting is necessary.

As I explained in my previous post, CPS faults can be a bit elusive, but the resistance tends to be a good indicator. So I think unless proven otherwise, this should have solved your problem. Keep us posted and enjoy your car!
Job well done!

Jeroen

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 25th September 2015 at 17:16. Reason: Quoted post edited.
Jeroen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th September 2015, 15:57   #351
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Rajkot (India)
Posts: 8
Thanked: 5 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Dear Jeroen,
Yes, your esteemed-self is absolutely right. The issue seems to be almost solved.
However, as a preventive measure, I wish to checkup all the sensors so that it none of them may give me any trouble in the mid-way somewhere I am going!
Could you please detail me about the other which sensors I need check, where are they located and how to check them?
I shell be highly obliged.
Navin Talati / 25-09-2015
Navin Talati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th September 2015, 16:59   #352
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,792
Thanked: 5,360 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navin Talati View Post
Dear Jeroen,
Yes, your esteemed-self is absolutely right. The issue seems to be almost solved.
However, as a preventive measure, I wish to checkup all the sensors so that it none of them may give me any trouble in the mid-way somewhere I am going!
Could you please detail me about the other which sensors I need check, where are they located and how to check them?
I shell be highly obliged.
Navin Talati / 25-09-2015
What do you mean with almost solved. Still not starting occasionally?

It would be really difficult to list each every sensor and how to test them. Some sensors might have no influence on initial starting.

The CPS tends to be the most obvious one. there might be one other sensor that can really affect engine starting and that is a temperature sensors. The ECU uses the temperature of the engine to determine how much fuel to inject when. i.e its different for a cold start then a warm start. When the temperature sensor goes wonky it sends the ECU the wrong signal and hence too much or too little fuel for the actual temperature of your engine.

You will need to check the workshop manual for the location and the test procedure.

I would suggest you try and get your ODB analyzer going. Because when all is said and done that is the easiest way to verify it all. No codes is not 100% guarantee that everything is ok, but near enough in practice.

Good luck,
Jeroen
Jeroen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th September 2015, 21:21   #353
BHPian
 
hrbheda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Bombay
Posts: 100
Thanked: 42 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSR View Post
In many cases, the issue can be resolved by merely removing, thoroughly cleaning the connectors, and re-fitting everything properly. Or it may be resolved by just re-programming your existing keys into the ECU (no need for new keys).
After about 2 months this issue came up again, twice in a day.
Surprisingly i got a P1696 DTC, which means it is a invalid key fault.
The description for this particular DTC is :
Virgin transponder at PCM/ECM status "Learnt" Learnt (invalid) Transponder at PCM/ECM status "Learnt"(Authentication Fail)

On earlier occasions i had got P1690 and P1676 DTCs (in that order)
I'm now confused since i have got 3 different codes for the same issue and don't know which one is pointing to the right fault.

Does this mean i should replace the keys (for peace of mind) or have the keys "erased" and "re-learnt". (going by the latest DTC)

BTW, i had a chat with the GM of the HASS and had him explain the situation to his technicians and they finally understood what i wanted to get done. It seems they didn't understand what i was saying by re-programming the existing keys.
hrbheda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th September 2015, 22:30   #354
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,792
Thanked: 5,360 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrbheda View Post
I'm now confused since i have got 3 different codes for the same issue and don't know which one is pointing to the right fault.
.
Well, as far as I can see those three DTCs mean three completely different things and are not related. What do you think they mean?

Jeroen
Jeroen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th September 2015, 23:48   #355
BHPian
 
hrbheda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Bombay
Posts: 100
Thanked: 42 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Well, as far as I can see those three DTC’s mean three completely different things and are not related.
Mentioned below are the code and their descriptions.
DTC - FAULT DESCRIPTION - FAULT NAME

A) P1690 (SMARTRA no response) - 1)No response from SMARTRA
2)Antenna coil error
3)Communication line error (Open/Short etc.)
4)Invalid message from SMARTRA to PCM(ECM) -
SMARTRA fault

B) P1676 (SMARTRA message error) - 1) Invalid message from SMARTRA to PCM(ECM) - SMARTRA fault

C) P1696 (Authentication fail) - 1)Virgin transponder at PCM(ECM) status 'Learnt'Learnt (Invalid)
Transponder at PCM(ECM) status 'Learnt'(Authentication fail) -
Invalid key fault


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
What do you think they mean?
Frankly, i dont know what to make of these codes. Even though they point to completely different things , the symptoms of the issue remain the same - intermittent disappearance of the immobilizer light and consequently crank but no start. After certain moments - no issue - start at the first turn of the key.

Last edited by hrbheda : 25th September 2015 at 23:49.
hrbheda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th September 2015, 08:08   #356
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,792
Thanked: 5,360 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrbheda View Post
Frankly, i dont know what to make of these codes. Even though they point to completely different things , the symptoms of the issue remain the same - intermittent disappearance of the immobilizer light and consequently crank but no start. After certain moments - no issue - start at the first turn of the key.
Im sorry but I cant help you here. If I had to make a guess I would say the immobiliser module might have a problem. You really need to find somebody who has experience working on this part on the car.

Try the specific manufacturer/model clubs/forum on the net.

You might have something like this; just in case, might come in handy for future reference:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2R...82RjdNdGM/view

Good luck

Jeroen
Jeroen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th September 2015, 08:28   #357
BHPian
 
hrbheda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Bombay
Posts: 100
Thanked: 42 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Try the specific manufacturer/model clubs/forum on the net.
I have searched the net regarding this. Various instances of similar problems. Some got resolved with re-programming the keys while some changed the antenna coil. There has been an instance here on Tbhp where the smartra had to be changed and it solved the problem.

Thanks! The Hyundai DTC list will sure come in handy when using Torque, when it happens again!

Will keep you updated as to what I do next !
hrbheda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th September 2015, 00:05   #358
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Rajkot (India)
Posts: 8
Thanked: 5 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Dear Friends

As per my previous post, I am updating herewith detail about how I replaced the RPM/TDC Sensor. The new original sensor was perocured from 99rpm.com.
It has undermentioned specification:

- Part No. 55189518
- Description: SENDING UNIT
- Embossed marking ; 55189518, C148, Magneti Marelli, 4E26
- Imported & Packed by: FCA (Fiat Crysler Automobiles) India Automobiles Private Limited

Using multimeter, the resistances were measured. Between its 1 & 2 terminal it has 1142 Ohms resistance where as between 2 & 3 and 1 & 3 the value is Infinite.
(NOTE: All values in older sensor were 0.7 Ohms showing SHORTED status of the sensor).

PROCEDURE:

1). Lifted the car on a jack, stabilised by supporting through virticle stem and took all applicable safety precautions. Battery was also detached as per the prescribed method in the manual.
2). Removed the front right (driver)side wheel and wheel arch/cover. This facilitates easy assessibility of the parts replacement and fittings.
3). Cleaned the mounting and peripheral space completely and also released the wire holding clamp and bolt fitted to fix the old sensor. Pulled the old sensor and detached, Also detached the electrical connection of it lying just above the enging head cover in the bonet. And finally removed the old one.
4). Re-cleaned the mounting space and mounted the New Sensor following the steps in reverse order described in abov #3. reconnecte its electrical connection.
5). Care is taken that its wire must not touch any of the belts around it and the location/position of none of the pully/belt should be disturbed. Otherwise setting of crank will be disturbed amd will/may cause misfire.
6). Battery was reconnected. Key was kept on MAR for a minute. Ther car was started and was idled for a minute. This was repeated twice to get setting of the ECU.
7). Now you can start the car and move. - I took a round of about 6-7 Km. And also doing well for last about 10 day or so.


Please refer the photos having self-explaining notes in them. Thanks to you all for sparing your valuable time for reading this. If I am missing something, please correct it. That will be highly appreciated.

Navin Talati / 26-09-2015

"My Car Won't Start" | What To Do-1assessing-rpm-sensor.jpg

"My Car Won't Start" | What To Do-2opening-removal-rpm-sensor.jpg

"My Car Won't Start" | What To Do-3rpm-sensors-old-new-mounted.jpg

"My Car Won't Start" | What To Do-4theory-rpmtdc-sensor.jpg

Mod Note: Please do not copy formatted content from a different editor. Use the forum editor itself.

Last edited by ampere : 27th September 2015 at 04:06.
Navin Talati is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2015, 07:43   #359
BHPian
 
BoneCollector's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: MFP
Posts: 840
Thanked: 1,117 Times
Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

My 2012 Wagon R Vxi ABS has got a peculiar problem that started exactly a week back. The car remote did not work and I had to open it manually. The ignition was dead and none of the lights in dash lit up. I opened the bonnet and checked all battery terminals and other visible issues. There were none that I could make out. I called up my friendly MASS who said they'll send an electrician at home but after 2pm as he had gone for some skill competition and would be back by then. Then I got busy with other work. After around 15 minutes, Dad went and cranked the engine and it fired in first go!! There was nothing that we could make out. The electrician came and checked, he could find nothing with even the battery. The car ran well till yesterday when the same issue cropped up but it again started after 5 minutes. Car ran well till evening when while driving it, the brakes and engine started flashing at random- irregular intervals. I'm taking the car for a thorough check today. Hopefully there should be some resolution. What could be the reason?
BoneCollector is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2015, 08:01   #360
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sudev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 3,396
Thanked: 1,867 Times
Default

Open battery terminals and clean up the inside and out then back.
sudev is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Cayenne" we "XC-eed" in our "Endeavour" to "Safari"? Taking powerful metal off-road SS-Traveller 4x4 Excursions 55 10th November 2016 22:56
Car won't start. Guess why? A rat chewed up the fuel line supremeBaleno Technical Stuff 54 18th October 2015 13:54
Drunk & Driving? Your car won't start! rishibravo The International Automotive Scene 6 6th December 2013 21:11
help! car won't start vivekiny2k Technical Stuff 10 26th March 2007 21:02
NFS CarBon won't start "NFSE.EXE has encontered a problem & need to close..... unknown Shifting gears 17 7th January 2007 15:29


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 22:37.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks