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Old 10th December 2013, 11:29   #106
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Default re: Santro in trouble : Stalls & refuses to start

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Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
@OP, bad fuel seems to be the case. Before returning the car, please clean the fuel filter.



Hi,

Can you please elaborate on the 'water body'?
The term "water body" that I mentioned refers to coolant elbow, When it started to malfunction the car would heat up and cool down after 5-10 minutes. The workshop was unable to figure out the problem. As an when it stopped, I would approach the helpline, but by the time they would arrive things were again fine. It went on for some time when they decided to change this part. Interestingly, the temperature meter was also not showing the signs of the car heating up. So, In delhi, this particular component "Coolant Elbow" is commonly referred to as Water body. My apologies for this misunderstanding. Hope, I have been able to clarify my self.
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Old 13th December 2013, 20:33   #107
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Well, took the car to the service centre and he checked all the possible culprits and it turned out that the problem was, well, the battery.
He said the battery had gone weak.
For me, that still doesnt explain why the car stalled when running. But the service centre said everything else is normal.

Just plugged in a new battery. lets see if this problem arises again.
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Old 13th December 2013, 21:23   #108
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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Originally Posted by stormsearcher View Post
For me, that still doesnt explain why the car stalled when running. But the service centre said everything else is normal.

Just plugged in a new battery. lets see if this problem arises again.
Right, the car will NEVER stall because of a battery problem.

The service center guys might push you for replacement as it might make economic sense for them, but, stromsearcher, if you do not have cold start issues, or any other starting issues, then DO NOT change the battery.
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Old 15th December 2013, 12:20   #109
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

HI Dhanush,
I already changed the battery, but got it done from an idependant dealer as the service centre was marking up quite a bit.
So far, cars fine. But am pretty sure the stall will creep up again. It cannot be the battery. My gut says bad fuel and clogged lines, but guess time will tell.
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Old 15th December 2013, 12:54   #110
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

My Ikon 1.6 is throwing up tantrums again. Here is the problem:

1. Cold start in the morning (14-15deg ambient temp) : Starts with 2-3 crank turns, on the first turn of the key (as always). Idles at a little over 1K.

2. Drive to office (13km): fairly smooth, not much traffic, on the highway. No problems.

3. Return from office: If stuck in a jam, with a lot of running in 1st - 2nd gear, the idling turns rough (~800 rpm). The oil sign comes on during idling (disappears with acceleration).

Now, if the engine stalls for some reason, or if I switch off the engine, it won't start. There is a faint first turn, click, fainter second turn, click, then nothing. So, I have it push started, and after the traffic clears up, and I drive at higher speeds for sometime to reach home. I kill the engine, and start it again, and it starts without any issues!!

4. Another observation: If the engine is warm after a 4-5km drive, if I operate the power windows, for example, the idling rpm goes down.

I showed it to a mechanic, he says, the battery is fine. But starter motor has a worn armature, needs refurb. I got it done - but the problem still persists.

Another mechanic checks the battery with a multi meter and says the battery is weak.

Somehow, I don't think it is a battery issue. Any pointers?? (Ignition coil? Fuel pump?)
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Old 15th December 2013, 14:37   #111
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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Originally Posted by wantarangerover View Post

2. Drive to office (13km): fairly smooth, not much traffic, on the highway. No problems.

3. Return from office: If stuck in a jam, with a lot of running in 1st - 2nd gear, the idling turns rough (~800 rpm). The oil sign comes on during idling (disappears with acceleration).

4. Another observation: If the engine is warm after a 4-5km drive, if I operate the power windows, for example, the idling rpm goes down.
.

Another mechanic checks the battery with a multi meter and says the battery is weak.

Somehow, I don't think it is a battery issue. Any pointers?? (Ignition coil? Fuel pump?)
Firstly, I presume you have sufficient oil in the engine and mechanically it is in good condition.

Please check battery voltage and ensure that its more than 13v while off and at least 14v when engine is on.

Why idle drops when you operate power windows is because the load is borne by the alternator, instead of the battery. That means the battery doesn't have juice.

Again, the oil pressure sensor will give out a voltage corresponding to oil pressure so once your car idles, the sensor begins to give a lesser voltage since the battery isnt able to provide the correct voltage and hence the oil pressure light turns on. In most cars, this is why warning lights pop up when battery is nearing end of life. So get both battery and alternator checked for correct functioning.
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Old 15th December 2013, 21:03   #112
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by wantarangerover View Post
Here is the problem:
Your issue doesn't seem to be straightforward, and may not be purely electricals-related. Some of my thoughts:
Quote:
1. Cold start in the morning (14-15deg ambient temp) : Starts with 2-3 crank turns, on the first turn of the key (as always). Idles at a little over 1K.
Appears to be normal.
Quote:
3. Return from office: If stuck in a jam, with a lot of running in 1st - 2nd gear, the idling turns rough (~800 rpm). The oil sign comes on during idling (disappears with acceleration).
I would suspect oil pressure loss - perhaps related to overheating, or a failing oil pump, or poor quality of oil (leading to overheating) - or even low oil level.

You need to check actual oil pressure with an oil pressure meter. Ask your mechanic about it.
Quote:
4. Another observation: If the engine is warm after a 4-5km drive, if I operate the power windows, for example, the idling rpm goes down.
Alternator load on an overheated engine can do this. Also have your temperature gauge checked for proper functioning.
Quote:
Now, if the engine stalls for some reason, or if I switch off the engine, it won't start. There is a faint first turn, click, fainter second turn, click, then nothing. So, I have it push started...
If the engine does tend to stall easily in such a crawling traffic situation, it might be because of the pistons/rings seizing up. Starter motor is unable to turn the engine over, but the slight wait till you organize a push start could cool the engine down enough to let it start.
Quote:
...and after the traffic clears up, and I drive at higher speeds for sometime to reach home. I kill the engine, and start it again, and it starts without any issues!!
Higher speed allows the engine to cool down, so it starts more easily the next time.
Quote:
...starter motor has a worn armature, needs refurb.
Get the starter motor repaired anyway, let the battery be for the moment. A weak battery usually has issues with cold start in the morning, which you don't have.
Quote:
Any pointers?? (Ignition coil? Fuel pump?)
Check your engine for oil consumption and back compression. Have the cooling system and temp gauge checked out for proper functioning. Have you noticed any change in fuel efficiency of your car lately? When was the last oil change done? What oil? Try a higher-viscosity (20W-50) mineral or semi-synthetic oil and see if the oil pressure warning lamp blinks again on idling when sttuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 15th December 2013 at 21:08.
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Old 15th December 2013, 21:56   #113
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by wantarangerover View Post

3. Return from office: If stuck in a jam, with a lot of running in 1st - 2nd gear, the idling turns rough (~800 rpm).
Can you ask someone from the service center to run a scan while you are in heavy stop and go traffic? Just remember to delete all error codes before you start driving.
Rough idling may be caused by a variety of factors - fuel pump is only one of them. Problem can appear due to electrical, mechanical or even ECU /sensor issues.
Here is a list of things (Source: Steve Wilson) to help you narrow down. So going through options step by step can hopefully help you isolate the specific cause in your case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wantarangerover View Post
The oil sign comes on during idling (disappears with acceleration).
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Firstly, I presume you have sufficient oil in the engine and mechanically it is in good condition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
I would suspect oil pressure loss - perhaps related to overheating, or a failing oil pump, or poor quality of oil (leading to overheating) - or even low oil level.

You need to check actual oil pressure with an oil pressure meter.
Check your engine for oil consumption and back compression. Have the cooling system and temp gauge checked out for proper functioning. Have you noticed any change in fuel efficiency of your car lately? When was the last oil change done? What oil? Try a higher-viscosity (20W-50) mineral or semi-synthetic oil and see if the oil pressure warning lamp blinks again on idling when sttuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic.
Quick observations you can do at home to see if your engine is burning oil or leaking oil.
a) If oil change was done recently , and you have driven at least 1000+ km since then, check oil level and condition on dip-stick. Is the level OK ie. between the marks? Is it sooty or clear?
b) Do you see any 'blue' smoke from exhaust ?
c) Are their any pools or drops of oil left behind on the floor after you move your car?
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Old 22nd December 2013, 19:34   #114
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
You've found your own answer. It's the self starter motor shorting out at times. Ask Ayub to take it out and check again. If he's reluctant, get him to talk to me.
Well today was the day. Self overhauled , carbon brushes taken out, new ones soldered on. Dent - Rs 800/- including parts but now works (starts) like a charm.
Starting voltage 10.6 V on his multimeter - have not checked on mine, but given the first crank start , am not overly worried about voltages at the moment.
Thanks SST for giving a talking to the concerned gentleman.
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Old 25th December 2013, 19:58   #115
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

I have a Chevy Spark which I converted to CNG around 5 months back and have covered 5,000 kms since then. Right now the ODO reading is 46,000-odd kms.

Now I'm facing this issue since a couple of weeks. The car refuses to start in the morning in the first attempt. I need to crank as much as 5-6 times for the car to start.

However during the day it starts in the first attempt usually and I face this problem only after it has been parked for more then 6-7 hours.

After starting, it jerks a lot for 3-4 seconds and then everything is back to normal.

What could be the issue? Can it be a sign of fuel pump failure since the car runs on CNG most of the times and requires petrol only while starting.

EDIT - The battery was replaced just 3 months back

Last edited by StrangeWizard : 25th December 2013 at 20:00.
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Old 26th December 2013, 06:15   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrangeWizard View Post

What could be the issue? Can it be a sign of fuel pump failure since the car runs on CNG most of the times and requires petrol only while starting.
What happens when you first crank? Does it male a click-click sound?
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Old 26th December 2013, 07:03   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrangeWizard View Post
I have a Chevy Spark which I converted to CNG around 5 months back and have covered 5,000 kms since then. Right now the ODO reading is 46,000-odd kms.

Now I'm facing this issue since a couple of weeks. The car refuses to start in the morning in the first attempt. I need to crank as much as 5-6 times for the car to start.

However during the day it starts in the first attempt usually and I face this problem only after it has been parked for more then 6-7 hours.

After starting, it jerks a lot for 3-4 seconds and then everything is back to normal.

What could be the issue? Can it be a sign of fuel pump failure since the car runs on CNG most of the times and requires petrol only while starting.

EDIT - The battery was replaced just 3 months back
Check the starter motor and alternator. Is the battery getting recharged or not!

Try this out - switch on the headlights and crank the engine. While craning observe the lights. If they don't to much then the battery is not good else you can tyke or the battery.

Be since you say battery is new then have at the fuel pump. May be there is dirt on the fuel line that causing the car to jerk on starting.

Anurag.
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Old 26th December 2013, 09:40   #118
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrangeWizard View Post
....Chevy Spark...converted to CNG...

The car refuses to start in the morning in the first attempt. I need to crank as much as 5-6 times for the car to start.

After starting, it jerks a lot for 3-4 seconds and then everything is back to normal.
What type of CNG kit are you using? Ask your CNG person to take a look about choked changeover valve / petrol settings.

Also check for an ignition (plug, cable) issue - loose contact, corrosion etc.

There could be a dozen reasons for this kind of behaviour.
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Old 26th December 2013, 10:14   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
What type of CNG kit are you using? Ask your CNG person to take a look about choked changeover valve / petrol settings.

Also check for an ignition (plug, cable) issue - loose contact, corrosion etc.

There could be a dozen reasons for this kind of behaviour.
I have a Lovatec closed loop CNG kit.

Will take it to the conversion garage today for a checkup
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Old 28th December 2013, 19:59   #120
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Default Re: "My Car Won't Start" | What To Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by wantarangerover View Post
My Ikon 1.6 is throwing up tantrums again. Here is the problem:

1. Cold start in the morning (14-15deg ambient temp) : Starts with 2-3 crank turns, on the first turn of the key (as always). Idles at a little over 1K.

2. Drive to office (13km): fairly smooth, not much traffic, on the highway. No problems.

3. Return from office: If stuck in a jam, with a lot of running in 1st - 2nd gear, the idling turns rough (~800 rpm). The oil sign comes on during idling (disappears with acceleration).

Now, if the engine stalls for some reason, or if I switch off the engine, it won't start. There is a faint first turn, click, fainter second turn, click, then nothing. So, I have it push started, and after the traffic clears up, and I drive at higher speeds for sometime to reach home. I kill the engine, and start it again, and it starts without any issues!!

4. Another observation: If the engine is warm after a 4-5km drive, if I operate the power windows, for example, the idling rpm goes down.

I showed it to a mechanic, he says, the battery is fine. But starter motor has a worn armature, needs refurb. I got it done - but the problem still persists.

Another mechanic checks the battery with a multi meter and says the battery is weak.

Somehow, I don't think it is a battery issue. Any pointers?? (Ignition coil? Fuel pump?)
Thanks to all of those who replied! Well, I had two mechanics tell me the battery is shot and a new one should be fitted. I tried in vain to get Amaron as many dealers said they did not have the battery with the rating I wanted. So went with Bosch (which apparently uses same oem as amaron).

Now the cranking is much quicker, still take 3 cranks to startup, albeit very quick ones instead of the tired ones earlier. However, the car still has issues with low idling rpm on a hot engine. On engaging the clutch, the engine stutters and almost shuts off. Also, in crawling traffic in 2nd gear, the engine coughs and stutters and almost stalls, so have to use 1st gear. In both situations, the oil lamp comes on. And the last point in my previous post - that the power windows would make the rpm go down - still holds true...
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