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Old 23rd February 2013, 19:57   #1
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Default Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

I couldn't help but notice that Tata Safari and Mahindra XUV have EXACTLY the same engine capacity (2179cc). It doesn't differ by even 1 cc. Had it been 2179cc vs 2180cc for one of them, I wouldn't be writing this post. It is not as if both vehicles carry the same engines, or even an identical engine block, sourced from the same supplier (such as Fiat MJD). Still, both carry same capacity engines.

Scorpio has 2179cc engine, and so does XUV. That's understandable, being from the same manufacturer. I was wondering how on earth do competitors come up with EXACTLY the same cubic capacity? Not that there is anything wrong with it, I just find it a bit odd.

Did the management at Tata Motors (or Mahindra) have a round table, discussing, hey, let's also come up with a competing vehicle with similar capacity of 2.2L? Then did someone at R&D just say - No, my dear Watson, create we'll do, but we won't just create a 2.2L engine, we'll create a 2179cc engine, to be precise. We'll go great lengths to make sure it is precisely 2179cc.

So, what's so holy about 2179cc? Why not design 2180cc or 2178cc engine? BTW, both advertise their engine capacity as 2.2L. I can see that 2179 is a very mathematically exciting number. It is a prime number. But I'm sure number theory doesn't drive capacity engineering decisions.

So, what gives? Is 2179cc mandated by some govt specification or technical constraints for SUVs that both manufacturers had to adhere to? That would explain in case there is a law which says 2180cc or more come under higher tax bracket.

Sorry for this uninteresting post, but I'm interested in automotive trivia, so couldn't resist.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 20:11   #2
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Default re: Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

If I remember correctly both engines were developed by the same manufacturer, or something like that. I remember reading on the forum before the 2.2 engines for Tata and Mahindra were launched. I think they both sourced the engines from the same company before working on the engine themselves.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 20:34   #3
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Default re: Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

Thanks, T-BHPian knowledge doesn't cease to amaze me .

After doing a little more research, it seems like AVL Austria designed it for both Tata and Mahindra.

But, Tata Safari Wikipedia page top line says - It is the first SUV to be designed, developed and manufactured "entirely" in India. With focus on entirely.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 20:35   #4
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Default re: Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

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Originally Posted by akshay1234 View Post
If I remember correctly both engines were developed by the same manufacturer, or something like that. I remember reading on the forum before the 2.2 engines for Tata and Mahindra were launched. I think they both sourced the engines from the same company before working on the engine themselves.
True. Both the engines are basically from AVL but Mahindra and Tata went in for different CRDI systems, one for Bosch ( Mahindra most probably ) and the other for Delphi ( Tata ).

Its not the engine which is problematic in either case, but Tata has reported more problems than Mahindra w.r.t. the common rail diesel system.
In case of Scorpio and Xylo, Mahindra deliberately opted for lower engine output due to dynamics, where as Safari could manage higher output. Thats why in XUV the same motor is developing 140 bhp. It is told that the 2.2 block can easily handle 170 bhp in twin turbo format.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 20:45   #5
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Default re: Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
True. Both the engines are basically from AVL but Mahindra and Tata went in for different CRDI systems, one for Bosch ( Mahindra most probably ) and the other for Delphi ( Tata ).

Its not the engine which is problematic in either case, but Tata has reported more problems than Mahindra w.r.t. the common rail diesel system.
In case of Scorpio and Xylo, Mahindra deliberately opted for lower engine output due to dynamics, where as Safari could manage higher output. Thats why in XUV the same motor is developing 140 bhp. It is told that the 2.2 block can easily handle 170 bhp in twin turbo format.
If I remember it correctly M&M had hired AVL to design an engine for Arjun series of tractor. The engine was first developed for a tractor and then the same engine was converted to suit the Scorpio.
And If I am not wrong M&M had gone ahead with Delphi for its fueling systems. I think Tata too had approached Delphi for the same. I dont think Tata Engines have Bosch fueling systems. Correct me If I am wrong.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 20:56   #6
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Default re: Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

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Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
If I remember it correctly M&M had hired AVL to design an engine for Arjun series of tractor. The engine was first developed for a tractor and then the same engine was converted to suit the Scorpio.
And If I am not wrong M&M had gone ahead with Delphi for its fueling systems. I think Tata too had approached Delphi for the same. I dont think Tata Engines have Bosch fueling systems. Correct me If I am wrong.
The 2.6 diesel unit in the Scorpio was the one which had the tractor engine. Those scorpios were built to last, as much as 4 lakh kms. and still going strong, almost as good as toyota.

How I know this ? Few inlaws/relatives in A'bad were mighty impressed with 2.6 Scorpio which served them well for more than 2 lakh kms., including farms where they regularly visit. They went ahead for 2.2 and that one had repetitive visits to service center, including clutch problem.

Please update me in case I am incorrect.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 21:47   #7
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Default re: Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

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Originally Posted by gsbhatia View Post

But, Tata Safari Wikipedia page top line says - It is the first SUV to be designed, developed and manufactured "entirely" in India. With focus on entirely.
The Safari was designed by an Italian design house - Italdesign/Giugiaro.
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Old 24th February 2013, 01:20   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post

The 2.6 diesel unit in the Scorpio was the one which had the tractor engine. Those scorpios were built to last, as much as 4 lakh kms. and still going strong, almost as good as toyota.

How I know this ? Few inlaws/relatives in A'bad were mighty impressed with 2.6 Scorpio which served them well for more than 2 lakh kms...
Yes you are right these were I think non Crdi Rotary pump fuel injected engines. Then M&M i think had a tie up with Delphi to make it Crdi and then they moved on improving the same engine and reducing the cc's .

It is noteworthy here to mention that both tata and mahindra hired Delphi to make their engines Crdi but mahindra was the 1st one to benefit in terms of performance parameters. Slowly Tata also improved and now both engines are good.

But i think Mahindra made more use of the know how from Delphi like coming out with so many engine models- M hawk M Eagle and now the threepot engine in Quanto.

Whereas Tata took a miserably long time to comeout with proven Cr4 series. I think because the base platform used for Cr4 and Dicor (1400 cc) engines was the old archaic platform of Tata 407 engines. Whereas the same Delphi technology when they used on Safari 2.2litre engine was a success because as aagoswami said it was based on a brand new AVL platform. I personally dont know about this infomation.

But if AVL sold both these companies the same designs they have made lot of profit with less work to do. This is highly possible because Consultancies do such things
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:51   #9
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Default re: Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

If I am not wrong, even Jaguar's 2.2L diesel is 2179cc. So the question about this magic number gets eerier.
But Jaguar's engine has nothing to do with Tata's. It was developed by Ford and Peugot-Citroen. I don't think AVL was involved in it. Also, this engine produces 190 PS.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:53   #10
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Default re: Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

I always thought that the 2.6 Ltr Scorpio engine was sourced from Renault
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Old 24th February 2013, 17:03   #11
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^^^Scorpio's Petrol engine was sourced from Renault not the Diesel engine.

The CC magic figure is a product of Bore x Stroke. It would be economical to have same size pistons and stroke would be dependent on the engine height and Govt restrictions so both bore and stroke are fixed. Just a wild wild guess LOL !
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Old 24th February 2013, 18:54   #12
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Default re: Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

Both the Dicor 2.2 and mHAWK 2.2 have been made with collaboration with AVL from Austria. This is not a coincidence.

But there is another 2179cc diesel engine(DW12) available in Evoque/LR FreeLander/Jaguar XF ,but this has nothing to do with the AVL made engine. This was developed in collaboration of Ford and Citroen.

This is a coincidence. How do I know that? They have different Bore X Stroke
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Old 28th June 2016, 01:40   #13
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Default Re: Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

How many manufacturers in the world make Pistons?
Do Pistons come in standard sizes?
Just a random guess.
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Old 28th June 2016, 13:04   #14
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Default Re: Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

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Originally Posted by hkborah View Post
How many manufacturers in the world make Pistons?
Do Pistons come in standard sizes?
Just a random guess.
Not many manufacturers for automobile pistons, may be a 100 or so.
http://www.globalsources.com/manufac...ne-Piston.html

As far as I know pistons are made to the engine manufacturer's specifications and there are no standard sizes as such, except with major Automobile Manufacturers who may use same piston in different engines.

Last edited by Aroy : 28th June 2016 at 13:07.
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Old 28th June 2016, 17:18   #15
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Default Re: Different manufacturers : Exactly the same engine capacity

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
If I remember it correctly M&M had hired AVL to design an engine for Arjun series of tractor. The engine was first developed for a tractor and then the same engine was converted to suit the Scorpio.
And If I am not wrong M&M had gone ahead with Delphi for its fueling systems. I think Tata too had approached Delphi for the same. I dont think Tata Engines have Bosch fueling systems. Correct me If I am wrong.
You are right. Both the 2.2 engines were developed in collaboration with AVL.

However, Bosch supplied the common rail system to Mahindra whereas TATA sourced it from Delphi.

The Bosch units were very reliable and the Delphi ones had quite some issues, which plagued the earlier 2.2 Safaris.

Mahindra used DELPHI too, but for the m2Dicr engine, which was used in the new Bolero. the m2Dicr engine was itself a common railed version of the DI engine which the older Boleros had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Styler View Post
I always thought that the 2.6 Ltr Scorpio engine was sourced from Renault
Scorpio used the Renault engine in the Scorpio Rev 116 (Petrol).
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