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Old 9th October 2007, 15:17   #166
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Hi im_srini,

Lets understand what benefits grooves can pass on compared to ungrooved engine.
1)It allows higher CR without knocking
2)Allows lower idling speed
3)Allows use of lower octane fuel

We know bumping up CR increases the efficiency of any engine hence diesel engines are more efficients but when modifying engine head simply by increasing CR has certain limitation.If CR increased too much then knocking or pinging can damage engine.With grooves we can increase the upper limit of CR without harming engine which reflects in more power & more FE.

"It has been conclusively proven that the Grooves are effective because of the additional benefits they allow:

Higher compression ratio,
less advance,
lower idle speed
and lower octane fuel.

The difference in a tuned up Grooved engine is simple to understand. If the same tune, advance, and CR was used for an unGrooved engine, it probably wouldn't even start!"

From SOMENDER-SINGH.com - Grooves 101

So in nutshell whats not possible in any engine can be effectively applied with grooves.This is the main reason we go for increasing CR while doing grooves.

Even with 4 valve/cylinder engine,grooves pass on benefits.Essential turbulence inside combustion chamber just before ignition improves combustion aspect in all engines.
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Old 18th January 2008, 15:34   #167
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Hey NSF,

Please give a detailed review of your lancers performance post grooving. Any difference in fuel efficency, power or drivability? Are you really able to drive at very low speeds (10-15 kmph) in the 4th or 5th gears? Also, what was the cost and time taken for the grooving? Did he also shave off the head? And was decarb required as well?

Lots of folks are wanting to groove their cars, but are scared to open their engine. Any independent review will be most appreciated. Cheers !!!
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Old 22nd February 2008, 12:29   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
Hey NSF,

Please give a detailed review of your lancers performance post grooving. Any difference in fuel efficency, power or drivability? Are you really able to drive at very low speeds (10-15 kmph) in the 4th or 5th gears? Also, what was the cost and time taken for the grooving? Did he also shave off the head? And was decarb required as well?

Lots of folks are wanting to groove their cars, but are scared to open their engine. Any independent review will be most appreciated. Cheers !!!
Hi there ,
Sorry for the late reply.
There is no gain in power at all i feel it was better with stock.And for the FE yes there is a marginal difference i used to get 12 kmpl at stok now its about 14.thats if you drive as adviced by Mr SS.Come to highest gear as soon as possible,Do not rev more than 2000Rpm in each gear.This kind of driving is meant for people of his age.
The maximum i can go down in 5th is 35 after which the engine starts knocking.
The total cost was 15k it also depends on the age of the car .It took 5 days.Yes the engine was decarbed.The head was ported and polished to a certain extent.

cheers
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Old 23rd February 2008, 04:02   #169
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seems to me that this is a waste of money,i mean NSF paid 15k.He could have bought 15k rs worth of fuel.
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Old 2nd March 2008, 02:21   #170
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Hey NSF, Thanks for your update. I guess that really does'nt inspire much confidence. I think I'll stay with my stock engine, thank you.

I really thought Somender was onto something, since an article on grooving appeared in Popular Science. What a let down? Just wonder if it had anything to do with the garage that grooved your vehicle? Perhaps they did not know how to do it????
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Old 3rd March 2008, 00:19   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
Hey NSF, Thanks for your update. I guess that really does'nt inspire much confidence. I think I'll stay with my stock engine, thank you.

I really thought Somender was onto something, since an article on grooving appeared in Popular Science. What a let down? Just wonder if it had anything to do with the garage that grooved your vehicle? Perhaps they did not know how to do it????

As said I got the grooving done by Mr Somender singh himself at Mysore in his workshop.Who else would know better than him.cheers:
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Old 6th March 2008, 16:48   #172
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Originally Posted by NSF View Post
As said I got the grooving done by Mr Somender singh himself at Mysore in his workshop.Who else would know better than him.cheers:
Oops my bad. ITs been so long, I forgot the details. Anyways, is your engine still feeling smoother than stock? Also how many kms have you covered post grooving? Have you given this feedback to Somender? What does he have to say?
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Old 7th March 2008, 00:08   #173
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Oops my bad. ITs been so long, I forgot the details. Anyways, is your engine still feeling smoother than stock? Also how many kms have you covered post grooving? Have you given this feedback to Somender? What does he have to say

The engine has come back to its orginal setting,may be i felt it smooth as he had decarbed the engine and changed the oil.I had given my feedback to him. As am in cochin he cant do much, so ve to go back to him for further check up.Anyway iam done with this grooving thing will try for an engine swap or turbo lets see.
cheers:
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Old 29th August 2008, 07:13   #174
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now i have roughly completed reading through the entire thread, now i would like to say about some thing i found in a SKODA's engine 1.9TDi, this car was hydro locked and the cam shaft broke along with bent valves etc, it was not recent, but then i remember distinctly, the piston had kind of oval groove in it and so did the head, if some one is able to get a chance to see this do so and you will surely find it way surprising i bet!!!

i got this chance because this car was fixed at a garage named NEWMARS here in Hyderabad, and did mention this kind of grooving to the owner of the garage too, and he agreed on the possible benefits, this garage has got its reputation in servicing cars right from M800s to beemers prosches and the likes of all kinds of imports.

well if some one gets a chance to click a few snaps of the SKODA's heads and pistons please by all means post them here, and i have a strong gut feeling that all the hign end cars like mercedes and like would not have left their Combustion chambers raw, there would definitely be some work like this to ensure the max performance, and they would have set their ECUs and fuel injectors accordingly.

i mention the ECU part because kaizer's car does not return the FE like the Carb cars may be because the MPFi system in his car is really pumping extra fuel to keep the engine at optimum temperature so ECU mappings and other necessary changes need to be done accordingly too right? this is done by these big brands, but all that shaping of the pistons and head is forged i guess rather than a job with a few drilling and shaving tools.

well i think by now i have successfully revoked this thread. hehe he and given some interesting info, now i am waiting for a few pics, if i am lucky enough to source them then i most certainly will do.
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Old 29th August 2008, 19:43   #175
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Hi,

Piston crowning or groove is somewthing thats being used since long.FOr the same purpose of increasing turbulance & so on.

Piston - Tech, Explanation - Air Fuel Mixture Optimization - Circle Track

In MPFI cars we need to remap ECM or bypass O2 sensor for max. benifits.I think there are mumerous device for this like EFIE from Eagle Research.This simple device help to carry out almost any kind of mods on MPFI cars & passing desired benefits.

Eagle-Research Products Page
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Old 29th August 2008, 21:01   #176
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Hi,

I am seriously considering grooving my adventure. But after reading what nsf has to say i am perplexed than ever. If it makes only a little difference why should we waste our money and time on this. If anybody else got the grooving done by him , please provide feedback on it.

Last edited by swathyd : 29th August 2008 at 21:06.
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Old 29th August 2008, 23:28   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finetuning View Post
Hi,

Piston crowning or groove is somewthing thats being used since long.FOr the same purpose of increasing turbulance & so on.

Piston - Tech, Explanation - Air Fuel Mixture Optimization - Circle Track

In MPFI cars we need to remap ECM or bypass O2 sensor for max. benifits.I think there are mumerous device for this like EFIE from Eagle Research.This simple device help to carry out almost any kind of mods on MPFI cars & passing desired benefits.

Eagle-Research Products Page

thanks for the linkys but we still did not get the top end performance after the grooving, finetuning please do tell us about it, at least i am eager to find out the results.

first vehicle i would try this on would be my unicorn, a bike, its got a CV carburetor and in case worst to worst any thing goes wrong i would have to change the bike's head thats all and it would not cost me a bomb compared to doing this on a car.

so it should work right? for the same reason i want to know the top end performance increase or decrease? please do write a review on the same.
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Old 30th August 2008, 00:42   #178
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Hi rider60,

Basically grooving concept is to enhance benefits of existing quench pad design and also engine without such design can benefit.Air consist of 20% oxygen & rest of nitrogen & other gases.Oxygen is responsible for combustion but its not encapsulating all fuel molecules just before ignition.With grooves we have tremendous turbulance where O2 atoms are placed/mixed/strirred so well covering most of fuel molecues to start a very healthy,rapid flame front with high velocity.This is improvement in combustion resulting in complete burning of fuel & hence less emission,more power & so on.....

We are observing change is running charecteristic.Torque is improved & more pronounced at lower to mid range.I beleive that it improves top end too but no evidence & test done.

Your unicorne will simply love to be grooved.It will difinitely improve low,mid & top end.The way your bike will climb to higher speed will be addictive.

You need to remove some metal from head surface.
You know grooving design.You can do it.Have a print out of images I posted of fiero F2 & pulsar 150.
You need to increase valve clearence as incrasing CR else engine will be very hot.

Many people are asking why cant we simply groove without doing anything like increasing CR & so on.The reason is that we get enhenced benefit of grooving.After all grooving is done for increasing power,performance,FE & emission.I observed in fiero F2 that after incrasing CR & grooving, engine was very hot.Hence we increased valve clearence slightly from factory setting on both valves.

Performance of pulsar is simply so good.

I hope you are ready for grooving

Last edited by finetuning : 30th August 2008 at 00:46.
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Old 30th August 2008, 01:27   #179
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i am ready to try and do it, please post the photos of the pulsar and the fieros here so that i can get a proper idea as to how to do it.

and about the engine over heating part i am ready to do the increase in valve clearance too, but after reading through i simply dint understand the formula to calculate the amount of metal to be chipped of and the amount of metal to be grinded to increase the CR by a proper known ratio.

please do give me the formula in a more lay man way to understand and the pics so that i do this successfully and get right back here to give you a review!!!

thanks for all the help in advance finetuning, i dont think i will be able to take the bike to mysore to get this done, or may be i can only take the head part but the will not be very feasible as i would need to wait for the results and there would just not be proper communication, so if there is proper instuctions on how to get it correct just the way its out to be done i will do it here thanks in advance again.
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Old 30th August 2008, 07:22   #180
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Hi rider60,

Formula is

Stroke size (inches) x 1 1
[ ---------- - ------------ ]
( static CR -1 ) ( Desired CR -1 )

Your bore & stroke size is 57.3mm x 57.8mm and CR is 9.5 : 1 and desireCR is 10.5 :1 then

= 2.3 x 1 1
[ ----------- - ----------- ]
( 9.5 -1 ) ( 10.5 -1 )

= 2.3 x 1 1
[ --------- - -------- ]
8.5 9.5

= 2.3 X [ 0.1176 - 0.1052 ]

= 2.3 x 0.0124

= 0.02852 inches


= 0.724408 mm

You need to remove 0.7244 mm precisely from your head.

Will post photo later.



=
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