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Old 6th May 2013, 23:50   #16
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Default Re: Running cars on Vegetable Oil (as fuel)

Alright people i did some research and this is what i found out about coconut oil.

Coconut Oil - a Significant Bio-fuel
During the Second World War the armies fighting in the Philippines used coconut oil to run diesel engines. Since then many further experiments and trials have been successfully run using coconut oil as a direct substitute for diesel. Bougainville Island in Papua New Guinea had diesel generators and trucks run on locally produced coconut oil during a trade blockade. A coconut oil/diesel fuel blend currently being used in Vanuatu initially mixes 20 parts coconut oil with one part kerosene. This blend is then mixed 2:1 with diesel to give an effective 64% coconut oil bio-fuel.


source: http://www.kokonutpacific.com.au/CoconutBiofuelKP.php
more info available at the source.
cheers
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Old 7th May 2013, 04:14   #17
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I believe this was already experimented and proven successful by garage called ChopShop. they were able to achieve this by running a car on vegetable oil by tweaking the filters and the engine pistons. I dont know if we can run it using used veg oil which we dump in the garbage. If yes, we can reuse the oil and make it more economical. Using this in the current generation crdi engines could be tough.
Apart from adding a heat exchanger to the fuel line and using a larger fuel filter to take some strain off the lift pump, there should be nothing to alter on an engine which is correctly set up and not worn. The Mercedes cars have an inbuilt fuel heater which comes on when you turn on the interior heating and many run VW TDis without heaters, even in our relatively cold country.

Yes, used veg oil is being processed all over Britain in garden sheds - it involves settling with heat (an oil barrel with an immersion heater) to help any water to drop out, then passing through filters. The cheapest and simplest system can be organised for less than 50 - 400Rp if you use a second hand tank and oil barrel.

Some are using methanol to split the oil into a methyl ester - 'bio-diesel' - and glycerine (the by-product) - this is a much more involved, time-consuming and costly process which requires a significant outlay in processing equipment. But most 21st century cars will run well on good bio-diesel where veg oil would be a challenge for their delicate and complex injection systems.

The key is to secure a regular supply of good quality cooking oil from a restaurant kitchen. Then you have your own independent supply of motor vehicle fuel. It is a very satisfying operation, and there is a superb support network online. The added benefit is that you will have a car which has fundamentally robust and reliable fuel system (and which is often fundamentally robust and reliable in most other respects unlike today's fragile offerings designed by cost-accountants and after-sales teams, not engineers). The W123 and W124 series Mercedes are the perfect example of top quality yet simple engineering.

Out of interest, what fuels are not allowed to be used for road use, in India? In the UK the govt is very strict about only using petrol, diesel or limited amounts of bio-fuel (veg oil or biodiesel). You cannot use any other mineral oil, such as kerosene. The penalties are massive if caught. Taxation on road fuel is very high and supports the Health Service and welfare payments.

There are often vast amounts of used hydraulic oil offered for free from a wide range of industries, which if blended with kerosene can make a very good fuel for CI engines. The one no-no is burning waste engine oil - it damages engines quickly, and expels many heavy metals into the atmosphere.
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Old 7th May 2013, 07:10   #18
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Default Re: Running cars on Vegetable Oil (as fuel)

Interesting, thanks. How are you paying duty on your vegetable oil?
Because if you're not, it's illegal in the UK and most of of Europe for that matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_oil_fuel

A friend of mine used to run his Mercedes W126 on vegetable oil. He got caught during a regeluar police check. Problem is, you can smell these vegetable oil burners a mile of. He got a huge fine.

Jeroen
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Old 7th May 2013, 16:30   #19
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One Central Excise officer whom I had met [He has asked that be not identified] runs his bike on coconut oil in Kerala. His family is in oil manufacturing business and hence he gets double filtered oil. He claimed that his mechanics often borrow his bike to use as a demo bike to promote use of coconut oil as fuel.
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Old 7th May 2013, 17:47   #20
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Interesting, thanks. How are you paying duty on your vegetable oil?
Because if you're not, it's illegal in the UK and most of of Europe for that matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_oil_fuel

A friend of mine used to run his Mercedes W126 on vegetable oil. He got caught during a regeluar police check. Problem is, you can smell these vegetable oil burners a mile of. He got a huge fine.

Jeroen

You sound very sure of yourself Jeroen, but your information is out of date and wrong. In most of Europe it is legal - biodiesel is widely supplied commercially - and there is no duty applied to individuals using under 2500 litres a year in the UK, as your link to wikipedia clearly states.

Your friend must have been caught quite a few years ago when it was a requirement to register with the authorities and pay them some money for the privilege to use plant oils as fuel. It was perfectly legal to do this - your friend must have been trying to evade the law.

As for the smell, your comment about the smell is about as accurate as your comment on British and Europeean law. A Skoda Octavia which runs on 90% veg produces no discernable smell unless you are following it closely up a steep hill. The only time the smell is noticeable is from cold starts when combustion - as with diesel - is not quite as clean. However, a large, worn engine will produce a lot of pollution - whether from burning diesel fuel or veg fuel.

One of the most pleasant aspects of running on veg (apart from the financial saving and being self-sufficient in fuel) is that the exhaust gases are cleaner than when running on diesel, which has a very nasty chemical cocktail of additives to make it run cleanly. These are not mentioned in the main-stream media since it is not in governments' interests to make it obvious that diesel cars, buses and lorries are putting out massive volumes of very carcinogenic material, with the newer engines and their lack of obvious smoke being responsible for higher proportions of nano-particles which are the most lethal. Some of the most harmful chemicals (when burned then emitted from the exhaust pipe) are purely there to make filling your tank easier.



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Originally Posted by ashwin_m0 View Post
One Central Excise officer whom I had met [He has asked that be not identified] runs his bike on coconut oil in Kerala. His family is in oil manufacturing business and hence he gets double filtered oil. He claimed that his mechanics often borrow his bike to use as a demo bike to promote use of coconut oil as fuel.
That's brilliant! I envy your warmer climate - it would make life a little easier from a veg oil point of view. There is no reason why you cannot run a diesel engine on melted fats, there is/was a chap in America who would shovel solid fat into his Mercedes' fuel tank and melt it in there with water from the cooling system, then pipe it to the engine as fuel.

A retired teacher in England runs a self-built CHP plant (combined heat and power) in his back garden, based around a Lister CS engine and generator. This runs on oil/fats which are solid at ambient temps, but melt in his generator shed! http://www.dpks.co.uk/CHP/main.htm. He also runs his cars on veg oil or biodiesel and is a very helpful source for information on renewable energy and CHP.

Running your car on a waste product which is a renewable energy in the first place makes you consider other energy uses in your life. I have started heating hot water with solar power (even in Northern England this is possible for 9 months of the year), garden waste and sawdust. Many homes in Europe have their roofs covered with solar electric panels.

People are beginning to wake up to the fact that fossil fuel based energy is going to continue to rise and rise in price and that now is the time to start saving energy as well as finding alternative ways of sourcing it. Even our Queen Elizabeth has started to make electricity for her homes with water turbines. http://www.greenne.com/windsor-castl...h-hydro-power/

Last edited by tsk1979 : 8th May 2013 at 13:22. Reason: Please do not make back to back posts, always use multi quote feature
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Old 7th May 2013, 19:40   #21
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Default Re: Running cars on Vegetable Oil (as fuel)

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Originally Posted by FlatOut View Post
You sound very sure of yourself Jeroen, but your information is out of date and wrong. In most of Europe it is legal - biodiesel is widely supplied commercially - and there is no duty applied to individuals using under 2500 litres a year in the UK, as your link to wikipedia clearly states.

Your friend must have been caught quite a few years ago when it was a requirement to register with the authorities and pay them some money for the privilege to use plant oils as fuel. It was perfectly legal to do this - your friend must have been trying to evade the law.

As for the smell, your comment about the smell is about as accurate as your comment on British and Europeean law.

Live and learn. I did see the 2500 litres mentioned, but I thought that was outdated. My friend lives in the Netherlands. In the Netherlands to date it is illegal to use plant oils for fuel that is not purchased through official bio fuel stations which will charge you the appropiate duties. If you buy your vegetable oil in the supermarket or get the frying oil from the local chip shop that is illegal. Very few, if any at all, petrol stations in the Netherlands offer vegetable oil

I own a 1982 Mercedes W123 and are a member of two Classic Mercedes clubs. Mine is a petrol variant, but plenty of my friends have diesels and they pour vegetable oil in it. In Germany its perfectly legal and its easy to obtain big quantities ie like 50 liter containers. Im no lawyer, but from what I learned on the various forums is that using the German purchased vegetable oil as fuel in the Netherlands would be considered illegal as well.

On the smell, trust me those old Mercedes on veggie oil do smell. If you can read Dutch I can sent you countless links to the Dutch classic Mercedes forums where the smell gets mentioned repeatedly. Maybe less of an issue on modern cars?

On the matter if you need to adapt your diesel engine at all the opinions seems to be varied. From no adations required at all, just pour in the vegetable oil to the need to install heaters and replace all rubber fuel lines for steel or SS ones.

So running your car on veg oil in the Netherlands is possible, but most likely illegal. And cumbersome. Your typical Dutch supermarket sells veggie oil in one liter bottles. Or a trip to Germany where , it seems, it is completley legal. Not sure why the difference, but each to its own. We in the Netherlands legalized soft drugs others legalize vegetable oil. Take your pick.

On a slightly different note. Dutch airline KLM. Is running a program where they are piloting blending their aircraft kerosene with vegetable oil as well! Not sure about the smell though.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 7th May 2013 at 19:46.
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Old 7th May 2013, 20:51   #22
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Default Re: Running cars on Vegetable Oil (as fuel)

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Originally Posted by ashwin_m0 View Post
One Central Excise officer whom I had met [He has asked that be not identified] runs his bike on coconut oil in Kerala. His family is in oil manufacturing business and hence he gets double filtered oil. He claimed that his mechanics often borrow his bike to use as a demo bike to promote use of coconut oil as fuel.
Adding to the above on Coconut oil..
Many years back it came in a local malayalam news paper about an autorickshaw guy who used to run his 2 stroke autorick on coconut oil. If i remember right it was in the early 2000s. One thing i don't remember well is whether he used the cocnut oil to power the auto or used it in place of the 2T oil.
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Old 7th May 2013, 22:16   #23
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Default Re: Running cars on Vegetable Oil (as fuel)

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Out of interest, what fuels are not allowed to be used for road use, in India? In the UK the govt is very strict about only using petrol, diesel or limited amounts of bio-fuel (veg oil or biodiesel). You cannot use any other mineral oil, such as kerosene. The penalties are massive if caught. Taxation on road fuel is very high and supports the Health Service and welfare payments.
I can tell you what is legal. Petrol, diesel, LPG, CNG. They also happen to be rules about how public transportation can only run on CNG (in Delhi anyway).

As for what is illegal, well.. this IS India.
I doubt if anyone will get to know if you use kerosene or what not. I suppose, as long as you pass the pollution checks (once every 3 months), no one will care a damn. Of course, even if you do not pass the pollution check, it isn't the hardest thing in the world to get a certificate made that says your vehicle is as green as can be. Fine and dandy, isn't it?
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Old 8th May 2013, 04:26   #24
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So from your reply I guess there are no roadside spot checks with tank dipping? Are these pollution checks just for Delhi, and other major cities? In Britain, there are laws in place to allow spot checks on emissions, but these are almost never seen. Much more common is fuel testing at the roadside for use of illicit fuels.

How much healthier (and safer) it was before the motor vehicle - I hope we begin to use our technologies to design far less polluting ways of transport in the future, which are no less convenient and fun. Dying of lung disease is never very pleasant.
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Old 8th May 2013, 11:27   #25
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Default Re: Running cars on Vegetable Oil (as fuel)

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On a slightly different note. Dutch airline KLM. Is running a program where they are piloting blending their aircraft kerosene with vegetable oil as well! Not sure about the smell though.

Jeroen
Aircrafts run on gas turbines.
Gas turbine can (perhaps) run on any fuel that can be atomized.
When I worked in refinery, we had GE gas turbines for power generation, which were usually run on naptha, but could also take in off-spec kerosene or diesel.

I am sure air craft gas turbines can also run on any fuel including bio diesel and vegetable oil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatOut View Post
So from your reply I guess there are no roadside spot checks with tank dipping? Are these pollution checks just for Delhi, and other major cities? In Britain, there are laws in place to allow spot checks on emissions, but these are almost never seen. Much more common is fuel testing at the roadside for use of illicit fuels.

How much healthier (and safer) it was before the motor vehicle - I hope we begin to use our technologies to design far less polluting ways of transport in the future, which are no less convenient and fun. Dying of lung disease is never very pleasant.
Oh no! Heaven forbid that!
India is a free country, and our citizens are free to do anything anywhere.

Last edited by alpha1 : 8th May 2013 at 11:40.
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Old 8th May 2013, 11:44   #26
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Aircrafts run on gas turbines.
Gas turbine can (perhaps) run on any fuel that can be atomized.
When I worked in refinery, we had GE gas turbines for power generation, which were usually run on refinery "fuel gas" (mainly methane and ethane), but could also take in off-spec kerosene or diesel or naphtha.

I am sure air craft gas turbines can also run on any fuel including bio diesel and vegetable oil.
Me too, I've operated gas engines with a variety of diesel fuels in a distant past.
Before this could be used on a plane, for commercial flights, there is a whole host of test and re-certification that needs to be done I imagine. I'm a pilot myself, but I wouldn't even know where to start. Just about every system, tanks, fuel, engine, manuals, FMS(?) and the fuel itself would most likely have to be verified and re-certified. In plane you can't just chuck in a different fuel, even though it technically will work.

Hadn't realized, but KLM has already gone commercial with this:

http://www.jaunted.com/story/2013/3/...m+and+New+York

On the smell:
QUOTE
The air smells faintly of french fries
UNQUOTE

Jeroen
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Old 8th May 2013, 11:53   #27
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Me too, I've operated gas engines with a variety of diesel fuels in a distant past.
Before this could be used on a plane, for commercial flights, there is a whole host of test and re-certification that needs to be done I imagine. I'm a pilot myself, but I wouldn't even know where to start. Just about every system, tanks, fuel, engine, manuals, FMS(?) and the fuel itself would most likely have to be verified and re-certified. In plane you can't just chuck in a different fuel, even though it technically will work.

Hadn't realized, but KLM has already gone commercial with this:

http://www.jaunted.com/story/2013/3/...m+and+New+York

On the smell:
QUOTE
The air smells faintly of french fries
UNQUOTE

Jeroen
That's fantastic!

Lovely bit about the KLM, especially seeing that an aircraft might be one of the most polluting means of transport (I am not sure, I haven't done any calculations to back that up).


(Also, my memory failed me, our GTGs used naptha primarily, the Fuel gas was used in firing the furnaces )
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Old 8th May 2013, 13:09   #28
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So from your reply I guess there are no roadside spot checks with tank dipping? Are these pollution checks just for Delhi, and other major cities? In Britain, there are laws in place to allow spot checks on emissions, but these are almost never seen. Much more common is fuel testing at the roadside for use of illicit fuels.
Pollutions checks are required all over the country. There are four documents that you must have while on the road - valid insurance, registration certificate, drivers license, and PUC (pollution under control) certificate.

PUC's are done at fuel stations and are valid for 3 months. Brand new cars do not need PUC's for the first one year though.

Roadside checks? HAHA.
This cultural gap is proving to be rather amusing. But either way, never going to happen.
Even if it does, there is lot that you can buy for about 500 INR. Just saying.
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Old 8th May 2013, 13:56   #29
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Default Re: Running cars on Vegetable Oil (as fuel)

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Roadside checks? HAHA.
This cultural gap is proving to be rather amusing. But either way, never going to happen.
Even if it does, there is lot that you can buy for about 500 INR. Just saying.
Lets not expose our British friend to our habits prevalent here!
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Old 8th May 2013, 15:11   #30
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Roadside checks? HAHA.
This cultural gap is proving to be rather amusing. But either way, never going to happen.
Even if it does, there is lot that you can buy for about 500 INR. Just saying.
They can be big organised mass checks in the UK, with customs and excise officials (it is they who hold the real power) as well as the police (they are there simply to uphold the peace) organising well-planned dippings on major roads at peak holiday times. Relatively rare, I perhaps see one once every five years on average.

They can also turn up at remote farms, unannounced and check vehicles - farmers use 'red diesel' in their farm machinery which is just over half the price of road diesel. The temptation can be too great for some! Also at rural shows and agricultural sales. I'm told that if you are caught with red diesel (or kerosene etc) in your fuel, they look to see how many miles you have done in the vehicle since purchasing it and from the concentration of illicit fuel in your tank, work out how much tax you have avoided. They then ask you politely for it; there are cases where people have lost everything, such is the amount owed.

Our authorities also snoop on public internet forums - one clown advertised his use of non road fuel on one such forum and had a little visit. It sounds as if you are all glad you don't live in our carefully policed and regulated society! Freedom takes many forms - the duty collected on fuel goes a long way to paying for our free (at the point of use) National Health Service.

However the 'man in the street' isn't powerless, we had a massive fuel strike by petrol and diesel tanker drivers a decade ago when prices first shot up very high and the country was paralysed. The strike ended just before everything ground to a complete halt - government has been careful not to push too far with fuel prices ever since, from a taxation perspective. Which means that prices are still extremely high, but chancellors daren't carry on adding as much extra tax as they would like.

The illegality of using plant/veg oil here without declaring yourself as a 'fuel producer' and paying duties owed ended in 2007 when it became clear that the cost of collecting and processing this revenue was greater than the revenue itself - a lot of people were sending in cheques for very small amounts of money on a very regular basis - haha!
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