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Old 14th May 2013, 01:13   #16
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Default Re: Cars: Where does the future lie? Why so many lies in the present?

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Brilliant read! This whole GEET thing, is it legit? I mean there isn't much evidence to support it but would it work? Can I convert a normal car to run with that tech? It's just that my summer holidays are coming up and I've got to keep me occupied. Plan was to build a go-kart so far
Not sure what you mean by legitimate, IshaanIan. The technology is for real, farmers in France are using it. Nobody can explain completely how it works, though - science lags behind the reality, I think.

If you mean whether or not the state would like it, well I doubt any government official would begin to understand it! You can alter your engine as you wish in Britain, if the emissions test is passed every year at the safety test. Just because the Americans have locked up Paul Pantone doesn't mean the technology is somehow not allowed.

Have a good look around the net, it's all there to see, with plenty of web pages devoted to how it works and what people have achieved.
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Old 14th May 2013, 01:24   #17
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Default Re: Cars: Where does the future lie? Why so many lies in the present?

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Not sure what you mean by legitimate, IshaanIan. The technology is for real, farmers in France are using it. Nobody can explain completely how it works, though - science lags behind the reality, I think.

If you mean whether or not the state would like it, well I doubt any government official would begin to understand it! You can alter your engine as you wish in Britain, if the emissions test is passed every year at the safety test. Just because the Americans have locked up Paul Pantone doesn't mean the technology is somehow not allowed.

Have a good look around the net, it's all there to see, with plenty of web pages devoted to how it works and what people have achieved.
Thanks! Farmers are running it in France? That's all I needed to hear. Did some basic reading; it converts any fuel (whatever one can vapourize) into plasma in vacuum using the exhaust temp and then emits elements in a more basic form while at the same time cleaning the engine during the process, I think I'll just stick to the go-kart plan this might be a little too much for one summer :P Completely agree with you though about how it's funny why we refuse to entirely change our thinking and research & development directions to new directions. Conspiracy theories about big corporations influencing things for their benefit aside, perhaps it has to do with the basic reluctance we have towards change. That's why once it became possible, our race began to settle down instead of moving around in "packs". Just a thought.

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Old 14th May 2013, 01:53   #18
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Default Re: Cars: Where does the future lie? Why so many lies in the present?

Running on plant oil which has been used to cook food in hotels and restaurants has made me more open minded as to what is possible, I think. Trouble is, it's so cheap I've not sufficient incentive to investigate Geet!
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Old 14th May 2013, 11:39   #19
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Default Re: Cars: Where does the future lie? Why so many lies in the present?

Nice line of thought there flatout. I too have been wondering for quite some time regarding the recent advances in the automobile world. While the automobile manufacturers do claim to have improved the many aspects of the automobile from their stables, most of us are all to familiar on how the market is now. Style over substance is something all too prominent with all major auto manufacturers now. One thing i really do feel bad about is that the real engineering marvels of the yesteryears will be lost over time. For a real driving experience, i want to connect with the car, i want to hear the engine roar, i want to feel the tug of the engine while i am inside, i want to hear the exhaust. Complete isolation is the only thing i am seeing in cars now. I would say for most if not all or excluding the real auto enthusiasts who love cars for substance, an everyday car from an ABC manufacturer will do the trick. I hate the fact that service intervals have only gotten shorter and stuff breaks down before it even rolls out of the showroom. No idea where technology is taking us at the moment.

Note: One might recollect the used food grade/plant oil which could be used as fuel for diesel engines. However this oil could not be used in many diesel engines because of their complex injection system. Wasn't the diesel engine originally designed to accept multiple fuel types? Now even that versatility has gone out of the window. I can tell you for a fact that there are many people who are worried about their injectors conking off or some engine issue to come up sooner or later. More new cars = more revenue but unless car manufacturers realize their environmental impact, earth will be filled with waste before we know it. I shudder to think how the streets will be 20 years down the line.

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Old 14th May 2013, 15:48   #20
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Default Re: Cars: Where does the future lie? Why so many lies in the present?

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Since you are able to read this forum, alpha1, then you are presumably able to google Geet and Paul Pantone - I am not here to hold everyone's hand through the internet. You say you are not aware of these names I invite you to research, but they are easily found - here are two links
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_the_P...fuel_save_work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%C3%86E/Paul_Pantone
So I devoted a few hours trying to find more about the GEET thingie. And quite frankly the only viable thing which I can see is the fact that GEET uses the exhaust gases to preheat the fuel - which will of course improve the efficiency of the engine (since you are using the low quality exhaust gas heat, instead of just throwing it away).

I don't buy the story that their engine is working on water and sugar etc. Because if that was indeed the case, then there should be no requirement to fill in hydrocarbon fuel (in whatsoever limited quantities).

The GEET plasma and other esoteric stuff requires more due diligence from my part, and hence I refuse to comment right now.
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Old 14th May 2013, 16:43   #21
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Default Re: Cars: Where does the future lie? Why so many lies in the present?

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Massive amounts of money are at stake and oil companies are so powerful they call the shots at national government level.
True. The Age of Stupid (documentary) is how I got to know about it and the more I researched over the net the scarier it got. Even if you discard 90% of the information on the internet (read my signature) the remaining 10% is scary enough.

However, can we do anything about it? No.

I honestly don't understand the objective of the thread. What is next, the hospital business which an era ago used to be about genuinely helping and curing people but is now commercialized to make money, by associating incentives for doctors that depend on which surgery they suggest (required or not), which injections/medicines they prescribe (needed or not).

I mean come on! We all know that the world would have been a better place if a lot of people did a lot of things differently. But then, its an automotive lover forum and any related trivia is eligible for a thread. And that's all I could make out this, another automotive technology related trivia, if that was the objective.

I'm sure most of you would've heard how one of the toothpaste makers changed the cap diameter, a noodle-maker decided to reduce the content while keeping the price same during recession etc. That's the kind of world we live in.

The only thing that I worry about is that I've stopped getting surprised at such things anymore.
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Old 14th May 2013, 19:12   #22
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Default Re: Cars: Where does the future lie? Why so many lies in the present?

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Nice line of thought there flatout. I too have been wondering for quite some time regarding the recent advances in the automobile world. While the automobile manufacturers do claim to have improved the many aspects of the automobile from their stables, most of us are all to familiar on how the market is now. Style over substance is something all too prominent with all major auto manufacturers now.

I hate the fact that service intervals have only gotten shorter and stuff breaks down before it even rolls out of the showroom. No idea where technology is taking us at the moment.

Note: One might recollect the used food grade/plant oil which could be used as fuel for diesel engines. However this oil could not be used in many diesel engines because of their complex injection system. Wasn't the diesel engine originally designed to accept multiple fuel types? Now even that versatility has gone out of the window. I can tell you for a fact that there are many people who are worried about their injectors conking off or some engine issue to come up sooner or later. More new cars = more revenue but unless car manufacturers realize their environmental impact, earth will be filled with waste before we know it. I shudder to think how the streets will be 20 years down the line.
Modern diesel injectors and injector pumps are failing routinely even on the finest pump diesel, and cost massive amounts of money to replace. They never used to fail, mine have yet to cause any problem on veg oil - see my other thread on this subject. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-oil-fuel.html (Running cars on Vegetable Oil (as fuel))

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True. The Age of Stupid (documentary) is how I got to know about it and the more I researched over the net the scarier it got. Even if you discard 90% of the information on the internet (read my signature) the remaining 10% is scary enough.

However, can we do anything about it? No.

I honestly don't understand the objective of the thread. What is next, the hospital business which an era ago used to be about genuinely helping and curing people but is now commercialized to make money, by associating incentives for doctors that depend on which surgery they suggest (required or not), which injections/medicines they prescribe (needed or not).

I mean come on! We all know that the world would have been a better place if a lot of people did a lot of things differently. But then, its an automotive lover forum and any related trivia is eligible for a thread. And that's all I could make out this, another automotive technology related trivia, if that was the objective.

I'm sure most of you would've heard how one of the toothpaste makers changed the cap diameter, a noodle-maker decided to reduce the content while keeping the price same during recession etc. That's the kind of world we live in.

The only thing that I worry about is that I've stopped getting surprised at such things anymore.
I posted it as light relief from the 'how many improvements are there on this year's Bland 300GTT?' -type thread and as a bit of more interesting reading than more direct questions. It is intended to make people think a little, to see what is happening, and just maybe to help them see through the worst of the cynicism in the industry.
Having been around for long enough to see how cars have gone so far beyond their peak development I'm maybe just having a bit of a personal rant - but I do hope that it makes a few people question how much money they are prepared to spend on all this 'new' technology.

In the 1950s you could buy a mass-produced car which would travel at over 160kph in total comfort on the worst roads with its variable rate, adjustable height long-travel suspension (all four springs and dampers could be replaced within half an hour if necessary), it was extremely aerodynamic, fuel consumption was in the mid-thirties, engines and other major components lasted over 300,000km without overhaul, its headlamps swivelled to see round corners after 1967, the fully-powered brakes worked according to load and its distribution, its front brakes were inboard discs, it was front-wheel drive, power steering was standard, the clutch and gearchange were automated and adjustable in reaction speed - and so on. It sold strongly for 20 years, with few alterations.

Today we are asked to build up enthusiasm for bluetooth connectivity or traction control, if not the alloy wheels and ultra-low profile tyres. Engines are usually god-fearing in-line fours, suspension is often a cheap MacPherson strut at the front with all its associated nasties, rubber is used throughout the suspension to try and make it feel refined, complexity is horrendous when things go wrong, wheels and suspension ratings are designed for fashion rather than practicality and work poorly as soon as you leave a perfectly-surfaced road, in an attempt to hide all the cheap mechanical bits you are insulated from them as well as possible so 'driving' is like sitting in a pleasantish box with a distant kitchen whisk as background noise.

I think this is as a result of mass-consumerism - products are aimed at the most prolific buyer, who usually hasn't a clue. Every car today seems to be like Ford used to be - a cleverly disguised piece of cheap engineering designed to sell on impulse. I think I will go and calm down a little and take the ancient little Citroen out for a spin!
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Old 14th May 2013, 19:26   #23
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Default Re: Cars: Where does the future lie? Why so many lies in the present?

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True. The Age of Stupid (documentary) is how I got to know about it and the more I researched over the net the scarier it got. Even if you discard 90% of the information on the internet (read my signature) the remaining 10% is scary enough.

However, can we do anything about it? No.

I honestly don't understand the objective of the thread. What is next, the hospital business which an era ago used to be about genuinely helping and curing people but is now commercialized to make money, by associating incentives for doctors that depend on which surgery they suggest (required or not), which injections/medicines they prescribe (needed or not).

I mean come on! We all know that the world would have been a better place if a lot of people did a lot of things differently. But then, its an automotive lover forum and any related trivia is eligible for a thread. And that's all I could make out this, another automotive technology related trivia, if that was the objective.

I'm sure most of you would've heard how one of the toothpaste makers changed the cap diameter, a noodle-maker decided to reduce the content while keeping the price same during recession etc. That's the kind of world we live in.

The only thing that I worry about is that I've stopped getting surprised at such things anymore.
I don't think the aim of this thread is to whine about corporations "controlling" everything. Instead I think it is to open our minds to invite new thoughts and think of what the future might hold for us or could have already held for us if we broke free and did some actual out of the box thinking.
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Old 14th May 2013, 19:39   #24
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Default Re: Cars: Where does the future lie? Why so many lies in the present?

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I don't think the aim of this thread is to whine about corporations "controlling" everything. Instead I think it is to open our minds to invite new thoughts and think of what the future might hold for us or could have already held for us if we broke free and did some actual out of the box thinking.
I wish I had your ability to say in so few words what I take many pages over!!
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Old 14th May 2013, 19:48   #25
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Default Re: Cars: Where does the future lie? Why so many lies in the present?

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True. [i]T But then, its an automotive lover forum and any related trivia is eligible for a thread. And that's all I could make out this, another automotive technology related trivia, if that was the objective.
Good one, not fact, not opinion, mere trivia. I like that, well put!

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Old 14th May 2013, 20:05   #26
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Good one, not fact, not opinion, mere trivia. I like that, well put!

Jeroen
Trivia - the place where three Roman roads met, or more literally appropriate for the street corner, commonplace or vulgar. In ancient Rome it was slang for something unusual or unheard-of.

I don't mind that - this is a public forum. Just the trite stuff which is a bit tedious.
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Old 14th May 2013, 20:21   #27
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Trivia - the place where three Roman roads met, or more literally appropriate for the street corner, commonplace or vulgar. In ancient Rome it was slang for something unusual or unheard-of.

I don't mind that - this is a public forum. Just the trite stuff which is a bit tedious.
Trivia is the plural of trivium, a Latin word meaning "meeting of the three roads." It entered English through the academic world. The trivium was the three liberal arts (grammar, rhetoric, and logic) in 15th century universities. (The other four Liberal Arts were the quadrivium: arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy, but that's another story.)

So "trivium" and "trivia" refers to things only of use to an academic, and by extension came to be any knowledge with no direct, real-world use.

Trite
Adjective
(of a remark, opinion, or idea) Overused and consequently of little import; lacking originality or freshness.
Synonyms
hackneyed - banal - commonplace - trivial - threadbare

So even trite is trivial?

The defense rests!
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Old 14th May 2013, 21:05   #28
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Default Re: Cars: Where does the future lie? Why so many lies in the present?

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I don't think the aim of this thread is to whine about corporations "controlling" everything. Instead I think it is to open our minds to invite new thoughts and think of what the future might hold for us or could have already held for us if we broke free and did some actual out of the box thinking.
Just like we broke free through several other threads? No amount of thinking is going to change what oil companies have planned, and that's not restricted to the car world by the way.

Even if one could run a car using water, would it make sense to run cars on water or leverage that technology to run trains in India instead (largest consumer of diesel in India) or run Telecom Infra sites / mobile towers (second largest consumer of diesel in India).

If someone was to tell us...that most of the veggies and fruits that we eat are contaminated, mostly far from their actual nutritive value, chicken that we so fondly consume had been injected with steroids or similar substances to make it grow faster, the dairy milk that someone gets in the morning is from a buffalo that's on steroids to give 150% of its natural capacity etc...would we stop eating?

Of course its food for thought (pun intended ) but thinking about is not really going to change anything. Consumer here has but little choice. Start your own farm in the backyard, pet a buffalo, open a poultry farm?

Similarly, this topic is good trivia but at the end, we must be acquainted with the reality (harsh or not) that no amount of thinking or saying that 'see how we got cheated over the last several decades' is going to help. The consumer doesn't have a choice but to buy and drive whatever is available.

The OP might be right in stating that car companies could've done better but that applies to a lot of industries, they definitely could've done better. Having said that, why would they when they can get away without doing it, and make billions on their way out!

EDIT: Flatout also mentioned that the public should be aware of how much they are spending thinking that its a 'new' technology when it isn't. That doesn't affect the equation at all, we all know that we could've bought an even better technology when choosing our next gadget/tv/home appliance or better house/clothes/wife :P but we settle for whatever best is available that we can afford. Living in India for so long now, I regularly spend money knowingly that I'm being cheated. A 150 rupee popcorn bucket in a multiplex, 60 rupee worth of 250 ml soft-drink, are you kidding me! Consumers get cheated, knowingly and unknowingly and there's not much that we can do about it, that too provided we want to first of all.

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Old 14th May 2013, 21:17   #29
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Default Re: Cars: Where does the future lie? Why so many lies in the present?

@fine69: no one here is complaining buddy, just inducing thought and hoping to be marveled by what we come up with that's all We are all well acquainted with reality doesn't mean it's unhealthy to dream.
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Old 14th May 2013, 23:38   #30
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For once, I need to be sarcastic, please. The epitome of technology these days - manufacturers competing to sell special edition version with mere sticker job and minor add-on.

Not to digress much, but related.

Newer technology, faster machines and maybe cleaner in the future; but seriously, where are the roads? Around 3 lac vehicles are spewed out on to our roads month after month. Are our roads expanding equivalently? Real estate is already a premium; and after all the coal and steel gets extinguished, how are we planning to build those elevated highways?

These are days when transportation is travelling in the wrong direction - from mass to too personal. The norm is reaching (or already?) one car for each member of the family! Only to follow China; take out even and odd numbered cars on alternative days?
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