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Old 16th May 2013, 10:46   #1
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Default Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

Hi.

My 2011 Swift Zxi got into an argument with a pothole, suffered from a crushed oil filter, and drained all its oil. A workshop on the highway replaced the filter and oil, and I was able to drive the car some 200km to get home. The car seemed to be running well at first, but it developed a terrible clattering noise at higher rpm towards the end of the journey. I took it to the dealer's service centre, and they said the engine block needed to be replaced. (I know, it's entirely my own fault. As soon as I realised I was leaking oil, I should have pulled over and started walking to find a tow truck. But I thought it was a small leak, and the workshop was only two kilometres down the road. A very expensive mistake.)

Anyway, a month later, the car now has a new engine block, but the low-end torque of the K-series engine that I used to enjoy so much (compared to my older 2005 Swift) is gone. I have to keep dropping back to first gear all the time. I knew the "feel" of this engine really well, so even though I can't diagnose the problem, I'm quite certain I'm not imagining things—and I mention this because it's the usual response I get from workshops when I tell them about things like the "feel" of my engine having changed.

I can live with the engine behaving as it does now, but it makes me very unhappy (especially since I drive in the hills a lot). I'd like to get it fixed if I can (even at the expense of some fuel efficiency). I would greatly appreciate some advice about the following:

(a) Where could the problem be? Maybe I'll have better results if I go to a workshop and ask them to check/fix specific things.

(b) I'm in Delhi. Should I take the car to the dealer's service centre, or can I find someone more trustworthy? (The engine was replaced by Apra Auto's service centre in Palam Vihar, and for various reasons I'll never go back there; but Apra has a workshop in Okhla too, and I suppose I could go there.)

I looked at the Team-BHP directory for Delhi-NCR, and there are only two apparently-relevant recommendations for mechanics: Raj Motors in Nithari (NOIDA), and Imtiaz/Ayub in GK-2 (or Rajender, in the same street). It's not entirely clear if they're equipped to address the problem described above. Are they? Is there anyone else?

Thanks very much in advance.
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Old 16th May 2013, 12:06   #2
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeisae9a View Post
Anyway, a month later, the car now has a new engine block, but the low-end torque of the K-series engine that I used to enjoy so much (compared to my older 2005 Swift) is gone. I have to keep dropping back to first gear all the time. I knew the "feel" of this engine really well, so even though I can't diagnose the problem, I'm quite certain I'm not imagining things—and I mention this because it's the usual response I get from workshops when I tell them about things like the "feel" of my engine having changed.
Is your Swift the new shape model with VVT engine?
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Old 16th May 2013, 12:14   #3
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

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Is your Swift the new shape model with VVT engine?
No VVT, it's the last generation of the older model. (Sorry, I should have mentioned this in my original post.)
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Old 16th May 2013, 12:35   #4
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeisae9a View Post
Hi.

Anyway, a month later, the car now has a new engine block, but the low-end torque of the K-series engine that I used to enjoy so much (compared to my older 2005 Swift) is gone. I have to keep dropping back to first gear all the time. I knew the "feel" of this engine really well, so even though I can't diagnose the problem, I'm quite certain I'm not imagining things—and I mention this because it's the usual response I get from workshops when I tell them about things like the "feel" of my engine having changed.

(a) Where could the problem be? Maybe I'll have better results if I go to a workshop and ask them to check/fix specific things.
Hi Xeisae9a,

It would have helped if you would have quoted the number of km's that your Swift had run before the incident.

Assuming that you had clocked about 5-10K kms in the car, the previous engine block would have been run-in. Also, you would have been accustomed to throttle response provided by the car over time.

The new engine block needs to be treated as a new car. The car may not be rev happy initially as the block would be bedding in with the rest of the components. Also, once you cover some KMs with this new block, you could find a similar rhythm with it.

My 2 cents: You can check with the A** if they have set the engine timing right. Sometimes, it is the timing, which if tweaked, can alter the driving characteristics of the car. Am not entirely sure of this with the K-series block though.

Regards,
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Old 16th May 2013, 13:05   #5
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

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Originally Posted by indianv2 View Post
It would have helped if you would have quoted the number of km's that your Swift had run before the incident.

Assuming that you had clocked about 5-10K kms in the car, the previous engine block would have been run-in. Also, you would have been accustomed to throttle response provided by the car over time.

The new engine block needs to be treated as a new car. The car may not be rev happy initially as the block would be bedding in with the rest of the components. Also, once you cover some KMs with this new block, you could find a similar rhythm with it.

My 2 cents: You can check with the A** if they have set the engine timing right. Sometimes, it is the timing, which if tweaked, can alter the driving characteristics of the car. Am not entirely sure of this with the K-series block though.

Regards,
Hi indianv2.

The old engine had run almost 25000km, so it was properly run-in, and you're right, the new one isn't. But I'm sure that's not all there is to it. Note that I'm talking about greatly reduced response at _low_ revs. The old engine really shone in that department. The difference was something I noticed on the very first day I drove it.

For example, with the old engine, the car would reverse smoothly and confidently with a very light touch of the accelerator. Now, with the same amount of throttle, it feels tentative and "shivers" a bit. I have to press down quite a bit more (= higher RPM) for the same smooth movement as before.

(If I had to guess, I'd say there is a reduction in performance even at higher RPMs, but this is something I haven't had a chance to test systematically yet. I'll be going up to the hills soon, so I'll get a chance to do some highway driving.)

Thanks for the hint about timing. I'll put it on the list of things to check. Any other suggestions?
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Old 16th May 2013, 13:36   #6
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

1) Maybe the Engine will bed in over time and become more responsive.
2) Maybe the clutch too is due for a replacement - How many kms on current clutch? - Just check it out.
3) Maybe something was done wrong in the installation back.

The guys who did the original work would be best equipped to solve the problem as well. Go to them.
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Old 16th May 2013, 14:32   #7
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeisae9a View Post
Anyway, a month later, the car now has a new engine block, but the low-end torque of the K-series engine that I used to enjoy so much (compared to my older 2005 Swift) is gone.
Since you obviously know the engine characteristics well, I do think something's definitely wrong. These are the kind of issues that an ace mechanic (easier to find at an independent workshop than a dealer) with a lot of time can solve. I would highly recommend visiting a good independent, and also escalating the matter to Maruti directly.

Did the dealer flash your ECU?
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Old 16th May 2013, 14:52   #8
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeisae9a View Post
For example, with the old engine, the car would reverse smoothly and confidently with a very light touch of the accelerator. Now, with the same amount of throttle, it feels tentative and "shivers" a bit. I have to press down quite a bit more (= higher RPM) for the same smooth movement as before.


Thanks for the hint about timing. I'll put it on the list of things to check. Any other suggestions?
While I have not driven the 1.2 K Series (without VVT), I personally own and have clocked about 10,000 kms on my 2011 VVT Swift petrol. This particular example given by you, with respect to poor response in reverse gear, is very similar to the VVT engine on my car. In other words, I need to put a fair bit of accelerator input before the engine begins responding and building power/torque. it is something like a rubber band effect, where the car starts moving after a second or so of pressing the accelerator. Also, like you pointed out, the accelerator input required is greater in first, second and reverse gears.

Is the new engine by any chance the one with the VVT? Is yes, low end driveability is poorer than earlier iterations of the same K Series engine. However, mid range and top end performance is fantastic. In fact, power starts building from 1800 RPM in a linear manner, and 2000 RPM onwards, right up to the redline, the engine pulls real hard and fast.

Last edited by arindambasu13 : 16th May 2013 at 14:55.
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Old 16th May 2013, 14:54   #9
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

If you are in Delhi your best bet is Maruti Service Masters, this is based on my experience over the years. They have many centers across Delhi i.e Okhla, Naraina to name a few.

In my experience with MSM's (naraina in particular), I found them to be fair in their judgement in finding the root cause of issues.

They are mostly crowded during weekends so your best bet will be to make a visit during week days and get your car checked there.

I will also suggest meet some senior guy probably customer relationship manager/workshop manager and talk with them about your issues with the car and ask them to get their best man assigned to the case. They are pretty approachable if you ask for them.

In all fairness atleast they will be able to tell you whether there is some issue with the car and if yes where exactly and what will be required to resolve them.

Also its operated by Maruti directly, you have a very clear escalation process in place as well in case its required and they do get back when issues are escalated.
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Old 17th May 2013, 10:30   #10
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arindambasu13 View Post
Is the new engine by any chance the one with the VVT?
Wow, I have to admit that possibility never occurred to me. How could I find out? The bill of materials just says "half engine" and "K-series". Is it possible to fit a VVT half-engine into a non-VVT other-half-engine (for want of better terminology :-)?

I'm leaving tomorrow for the highway/hill drive, so I'll update this thread with further observations soon. (Unfortunately, I couldn't schedule a visit to a mechanic before this trip.)

Thanks.
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Old 17th May 2013, 18:07   #11
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

Did they re-use the old pistons and/or rings?
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Old 17th May 2013, 18:56   #12
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeisae9a View Post
Imtiaz/Ayub in GK-2 (or Rajender, in the same street).
Besides getting the obvious (engine make etc.) checked, just in case this issue prolongs (I hope not) you might want to give Imtiaz a visit. He has even helped people over phone to devise some temp fixes when they couldn't figure out what was wrong with the car. For whatever little work I got done on my car, he's the most learned mechanic I've come across, way better than Maruti A.S.S. guys but then I take my car to Kumar Service Station (M.A.S.S.) in Okhla.

You may also PM SS-Traveller as he has got quite a lot of work done from Imtiaz to figure out how capable this guy is.
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Old 17th May 2013, 20:11   #13
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeisae9a View Post
Wow, I have to admit that possibility never occurred to me. How could I find out? The bill of materials just says "half engine" and "K-series". Is it possible to fit a VVT half-engine into a non-VVT other-half-engine (for want of better terminology :-)?
Block is same for both, so it doesn't matter. VVT is in the head.

So it seems the repair process was done with a completely new half engine - that means factory set block, piston and crank. If so not many things can go wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeisae9a View Post
For example, with the old engine, the car would reverse smoothly and confidently with a very light touch of the accelerator. Now, with the same amount of throttle, it feels tentative and "shivers" a bit. I have to press down quite a bit more (= higher RPM) for the same smooth movement as before.
From what you have described it looks like a timing issue.
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Old 17th May 2013, 21:52   #14
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeisae9a View Post
..."half engine"...
Engine damage due to loss of lubricant, and the MASS reused the old head, valves and camshaft?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pranavt View Post
Did they re-use the old pistons and/or rings?
Half engine is the block with pistons & rings pre-fitted at factory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fine69 View Post
...quite a lot of work done from Imtiaz to figure out how capable this guy is.
Yes, he's capable, and should be able to arrive at a resolution. PM me if required.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
...not many things can go wrong.
...looks like a timing issue.
Worn/bent camshaft? Burnt/leaky valves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeisae9a
...a terrible clattering noise at higher rpm...
Any idea what caused it? How does the engine sound now?

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 17th May 2013 at 21:56.
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Old 18th May 2013, 06:56   #15
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Default Re: Fixes for disappointing performance after engine change?

It would be prudent to do a compression test. Compare the result with the below.

Standard - 167 PSI
Limit (lower) - 131PSI
Max difference between any two cylinders - 14.5PSI

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Worn/bent camshaft? Burnt/leaky valves?
On a rebuilt engine? Not unless the workshop was negligent enough to not to look into the head of an oil starved motor.
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