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Old 27th March 2014, 11:45   #16
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Default Mitsubishi Lancer AC query

Dear Bhpians,

My Trusted workhorse is showing signs of age, but i want to nurse it back to health. low cooling at all speeds, suspected culprit ageing compressor ?


A little background

My Daily running is less than 10 KMS. The car has done close to 190k and is a 2000 model.

4 months ago i changed the evoprator coil as it developed a leak(there was a big mysterious hole in it and the oil leaked) i didnt drive the car much but replaced the coil, after changing the coil there is a sucking sound that i hear every 1-3 minutes(from where the new coil was placed), mechanic informed me that there is a valve there and they have retained the old valve and its norma (certainly doesnot sound normal to me) but i decided to believe him and continued to drive the car. Recently due intense Kerala Heat the AC control switch (also called the 123 switch) got melted from inside and it developed a short circuit and i had to replace the unit, i could not get the exact unit but what i got was a compatible unit. It also has 3 speed and looks a bit flimsy but as soon as the the unit was replaced the cooling was reduced and the AC mechanic attributted this to the aging compressor and he said if the car is on higher revs the compressor gives out the desired cooling effect and has lower cooling effect at low revs.

Now my observation is slightly different.


The compressor was fine till the old switch gave away( i am not sure if this is the reason) the switch went kaput but all of a sudden during normal operation, the ac blower went down and the power windows were also down (they have a common fuse) and after that every time a new fuse was put and the ac turned on the fuse would blow. I have a strong belief the compressor could not be starined to give out this result (i could be wrong here, need suggestions)

now the AC cuts off every 20-30 seconds and comes back even at idle speed and the same behavior is followed at higher revs, read 3k+ rpm. Some how it looks like its cutting off due to load.

for more fact finding, I dismantled the faulty 123 switch, the plastic insulation melted away, which short circuited it. As per my limited knowledge of electronics this looks like an elitrical problem than mechanical. and either excessive load(current) due to extreamly hot conditions + directly parking under the sun could have resulted into this. what do you guys feel, should i look for an AC control module off a old lancer to confirm( have to find out how expensive this would be, the switch also provides a ground connection due to which i also cannot bypass the switch to check this) or give my compressor for servicing ( will incur 3k+ losses due to gas filling and other service charges)

I have already spent 1k for the switch(compatible) Please suggest, do i have more moves or is it a stalemate and i need to take chances servicing my compressor? which as per them has only 30% chances of success

pramod
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Old 27th March 2014, 12:09   #17
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Default Re: Mitsubishi Lancer AC query

I'm not familiar with your car or its AC but I can give you a few general hints.

If your switch keep burning out, or the fuse keeps blowing there is something seriously wrong. I assume you put the correct fues with the correct rating in? I'm not sure how it works on your car? Does switching on the AC fan also engages the AC compressor?

Does your AC still blow cold air, if it does do you think it's less cold or takes longer to get cold as before?

AC compressor cutting in and out doesn't necessarily mean something is wrong. On many system this is just how it works. However, if the system is running low on refrigerant fluid, that could be the cause for cuttting in and out. So, get that checked, it's very easy. Dont' know about here in India, but in many countries you can buy DIY AC top up bottles. two minute DIY job.

By the sound of it your system is equipped with a simple electomagnetic clutch. That's how the compressor engages/disengages.

So, you might have a problem with the magnetic coil of the clutch. I've had a few of those go in some of my cars over the years. That could perhaps explain why you keep blowing the fuse. The coil has deterioted, it will still work, but is "partially" short circuiting and thus drawing a heavier load.

I'm not sure if the 123 switch drives the clutch directly or whether these is a relais in between. If no relais the above scenario could be the reason for the fuse blowing and the switch melting. Although one would hope the fuse goes before the switch melts!
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Old 27th March 2014, 13:33   #18
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Default Re: Mitsubishi Lancer AC query

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
few general hints.

Thanks for the detailed reply. My explination above was very detailed, hence very confusing.

Ok, so this is what happened, The Ac was running fine and all of a sudden the blower died. I tried the power windows and they were down as well. I went to a road side electrician, he replaced the fuse and the moment i turned the AC on the fuse was blown, he suspected a short circuit. I took the car to my workshop and they isolated the iussue as the 123 switch.

We replaced the switch and the AC was working fine. The cooling effect was reduced to a great extent. We checked the refrigent gas level and it was fine, so the mechanic said it could be an issue with the compressor.

Like you suggested it looks like the clutch or the solenoid has an issue, is there a way to check it without letting the gas away.

Pramod
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Old 27th March 2014, 14:28   #19
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Default Re: Mitsubishi Lancer AC query

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
Thanks for the detailed reply. My explination above was very detailed, hence very confusing.

Ok, so this is what happened, The Ac was running fine and all of a sudden the blower died. I tried the power windows and they were down as well. I went to a road side electrician, he replaced the fuse and the moment i turned the AC on the fuse was blown, he suspected a short circuit. I took the car to my workshop and they isolated the iussue as the 123 switch.

We replaced the switch and the AC was working fine. The cooling effect was reduced to a great extent. We checked the refrigent gas level and it was fine, so the mechanic said it could be an issue with the compressor.

Like you suggested it looks like the clutch or the solenoid has an issue, is there a way to check it without letting the gas away.

Pramod
Ok, just as an after thought, it could be your fan as well that is drawing to hight a current. Bearings going bad, or some debris in the air inlet.

You should be able to check the clutch and or solenoid without any problems. But typically either it works or it doesnt. If the clutch stats slipping usually it will burn out very quickly. These AC clutches are pretty straight forward.

What you might want to try is hook up an Amp meter and chech how much current the fan and the AC clutch is drawing.

Jeroen
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Old 27th March 2014, 14:32   #20
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Default Re: Car Aircon Problem

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Originally Posted by jimmyjagga View Post
I have written to Toyota Head office India. Waiting for a follow up. Problem starting 20 km after servicing is my issue, with them
The scheduled service need not have anything to do with it. A part can fail. Air conditioning involves a lot of plumbing and they can develop leaks. Every car is built to the highest standard. However; those high standards take quite a lot of abuse in our conditions and by this I mean vibrations filtering through bad roads and causing parts to fail much sooner than normal. Whatever part that failed must have been on the brink of failing. I did experience something like this on my first car, a used Ford Ikon. The internal cooling coil developed a leak right after service. Off course, the car had age going against it. Like yourself, I had sent the car for servicing and there was no complaint from my end that required lifting the dashboard. This could have been the only way for a leak to spring. I was shown the older, rotting cooling coil. They showed me where it was leaking but I could not make out much cause it was so dirty.

As for cost, I think it is okay. I paid about 8k including labor for cooling coil replacement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
now the AC cuts off every 20-30 seconds and comes back even at idle speed and the same behavior is followed at higher revs, read 3k+ rpm. Some how it looks like its cutting off due to load.
Check engine cooling system. If the engine temperature is heading north, the ECU cuts the air conditioning to reduce engine load.

Check radiator fan. Some cars have two speed fans. Sometimes, one of speeds fail causing erratic cooling. When you start the air conditioning, observe if the cooling fan spins immediately. If it does not, continue to observe if at a later stage the higher fan speed starts.

Last edited by sandeepmohan : 27th March 2014 at 14:36.
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Old 27th March 2014, 15:09   #21
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Default Re: Car Aircon Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
Check engine cooling system. If the engine temperature is heading north, the ECU cuts the air conditioning to reduce engine load.

Check radiator fan. Some cars have two speed fans. Sometimes, one of speeds fail causing erratic cooling. When you start the air conditioning, observe if the cooling fan spins immediately. If it does not, continue to observe if at a later stage the higher fan speed starts.

All of this checks out, tried all of this.

Pramod
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Old 27th March 2014, 19:28   #22
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I am about to get my car ac serviced from a car ac specialist. He has given me two quotes differing by Rs600 for the job.

The difference is because of the "refrigerant gas" the "oem type" which is supposedly "cfc based" and Chinese gas which is supposedly "hydrocarbon based". I fail to understand these ambiguous terms.

My car takes R134 refrigerant.

Can anybody explain the difference between the two if any?
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Old 28th March 2014, 08:52   #23
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Default Re: Car Aircon Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by drsingh View Post
I am about to get my car ac serviced from a car ac specialist. He has given me two quotes differing by Rs600 for the job.

The difference is because of the "refrigerant gas" the "oem type" which is supposedly "cfc based" and Chinese gas which is supposedly "hydrocarbon based". I fail to understand these ambiguous terms.

My car takes R134 refrigerant.

Can anybody explain the difference between the two if any?
But difficult as these terms are a bit ambiguous, but here goes.

CFC stands for Chlorofluorocarbon. In the past you might have heard the name freon for AC refrigator gasses. Freon is actually a tradesname, but it did contain CFC (or some other nasty stuff). Its has been used widely around the whole world for refrigeration purposes. However, it has a big drawback as CFC's deplete the ozone layer. I dont know about India, but in Europe and the USA freons have been forbidden for many years.

Everybody uses CFC free gasses nowadays.

R134 is a designation for such a CFC free Gas. You should never fill a R134 system with anything but R134 and certainly not with CFC bases gasses. They work on different temperaturs/pressures and also some components in the system might be affected, e.g. hoses, seal and lub oil.

I have rebuild the AC system on my 1986 Alfa Spider. You simly cant get Freon (CFC) anymore. It's illegal to sell. The Spider's AC was originally designed for Freon but is now happily running on CFC free gas. It nearly always requires a change out of complete flush of the system

What your mechanic calls a hydrocarbon based gas is probably a R134, but make sure it is, you could run into trouble if it isn't.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 28th March 2014 at 09:00.
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Old 28th March 2014, 12:07   #24
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Default Re: Mitsubishi Lancer AC query

Pramod,

Since yours is a 2000 Lancer your compressor might be reciprocating type(piston type).

It is normal for the older piston type compressors to function better at higher revs.

With 190k on clock , I would suspect your compressor as weak.

Also I suspect your orginal system was running on R12 refrigerant(unlike the R134a of today's cars).I have seen R134a in cars from 2001 and am not sure of the Lancer of 2000 vintage.

What refrigerant did the technician fill after your coil was changed?Do you see the R134a label pasted anywhere in the bonnet bay over the radiator panel?

Your switch(can you post a pic of this ?) did not burn out due to Kerala heat but due to excessive current drawn ; and finding out the cause is necessary - I'd suspect the blower/some electrical wiring.

The electromagnetic clutch seems ok as it cuts in and cuts off based on the evaporator coil grille temperature.

My recommendation would be to look out for an old reliable technician(the older genre generally are better) and ask for his diagnosis.

Rectifying ACs can be a nightmare if you end up with wrong people,diagnosis or equipment.
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Old 28th March 2014, 12:56   #25
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Default Re: Car Aircon Problem

Since You Are In Delhi/Ncr , Have A Look At This

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/delhi-...new-delhi.html (Car Air-conditioning - Cooldays Car AC (Lajpat Nagar-I, New Delhi))

Recently It Was A Very Good Experience , And I Totally Recommend Him.

Rest Is Your Call !

Regards
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Old 28th March 2014, 17:04   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post

But difficult as these terms are a bit ambiguous, but here goes.



What your mechanic calls a hydrocarbon based gas is probably a R134, but make sure it is, you could run into trouble if it isn't.

Jeroen
Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Both types of "gas refills" are R134 for sure. I am not convinced they're is any R134 with CFC s as its illegal.

More likely its Chinese vs local OEM manufacturer.

I'm hoping if a member of the forum has used any Chinese made "gas refills" for top up, he/she can share some knowledge about it.
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Old 31st March 2014, 10:00   #27
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Default Re: Car Aircon Problem

I am experiencing a weird problem on my 2010 Figo 1.2.

The Figo has a known issue with the AC by which the cooling reduces after a prolonged drive. It was happening to me as well and there were few fixes that were done by the Service Centers like replacing the coil and topping up the gas.

I did check with the service center and they said something about replacing a part or cleaning it for which I did not want to go ahead with.

From the reading few posts on AC repairs in Bangalore, I visited Aditya AC repairs a couple of days back. They checked the system and concluded it needed a gas top up and cleaning of the evaporator behind dash. I gave the go ahead and the work was done in 30 minutes and they showed me the temp reading at the vent which was reading 6 degrees.
I drove around 100 kms in the last couple of days and the AC seems to be retaining it coldness after working for long durations.
However, the fan keeps turning on to full speed frequently now. The high speed fan used to work hardly until the visit to the AC repair. Now, in traffic signals and while driving in traffic, I can hear it spin which does not seem normal. Along with the that the compressor keeps cutting off and on much more than earlier.
The cooling is much better now, but I am wondering about the side effects which is the fan and compressor cutting out very frequently.
The repair guy was under the car for around 15 minutes next to the right front wheel doing some adjustment as well and it seems like he tightened the belt since it started squealing which wasn't there before.
It does not now, but it did in the repair shop .

Any idea what is happening and if it is normal. I don't want to knowingly screw up the AC system since it is a Ford.
I may visit him again as well to check regarding this.
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Old 31st March 2014, 11:30   #28
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Default Re: Mitsubishi Lancer AC query

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Originally Posted by vigsom View Post
Pramod,

Also I suspect your orginal system was running on R12 refrigerant(unlike the R134a of today's cars).I have seen R134a in cars from 2001 and am not sure of the Lancer of 2000 vintage.
It has R134a

Quote:
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Your switch(can you post a pic of this ?)

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Looks like i might get the compressor rebuilt.

Pramod
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Old 25th October 2016, 14:51   #29
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Default 2004 Petrol Lancer a/c issue

Hi all, I have a 2004 lancer petrol at Bangalore.

It was having an issue of the gas leaking out of the a/c within a few days. Couple of months ago, after seeing Tobias of WeCool recommended on TeamBHP, took it to him. He said the cooling coil has a leak, and also the thermostat is conked out. I got both replaced by him for 10K Rs.

After above repair it was working fine, but the cooling seemed to gradually reduce. Finally the past weekend, it stopped cooling all together.

Took it back to Tobias today, and he said the compressor has an oil leak, which in turn is leaking the gas. He recommended changing the compressor. Cost of new compressor is 16K plus 3.5K labor & gas filling.

He said in case I want to sell the car, I can just change the oil seal (didn't ask how much that would cost), fill the a/c gas and it would work for some time. He said with a replaced oil seal, the gas could still leak out again within a matter of days.

Any of you experienced in this, kindly advise. I have no plan of selling the car, but I want to avoid spending 20K to repair the a/c as far as possible.

So I would like your advice on the compressor oil seal replacement. Is it really that unreliable? One reason Tobias said is that the oil seal may not be original, most of the ones available on the market are duplicate and don't perform.

Looking forward to your feedback.
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Old 27th October 2016, 15:28   #30
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Default Re: Car Aircon Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigsom View Post
Rectifying ACs can be a nightmare if you end up with wrong people,diagnosis or equipment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
Looks like i might get the compressor rebuilt.Pramod
Hi Vigsom, Pramod, sorry for replying to an old thread, but am new here and I see that the practice is to post new queries on old threads of related topic.

I see from earlier replies that you have experience with car a/c issues and it would be very helpful if you could comment on the problem am facing with the compressor oil leak on my 2004 Lancer.

Of course, anyone else who can help here, yes please your advice is welcome!
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