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Old 24th June 2013, 09:54   #31
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
Filling petrol in case of diesel, again, is sheer negligence on the part of the consumer. I have seen most petrol pump attendants checking with me on the type of the fuel, specially when I drive the Ikon to the pump.
Wouldn't there be risk of fire/ explosions if Petrol is filled in a Diesel car since the pre-combustion compression/ heating required for Diesel would act adverse to the inflammable Petrol? A mechanic while helping a friend flush Diesel out of his Petrol car was commenting that the other way would've been disastrous.
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Old 24th June 2013, 10:02   #32
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

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Originally Posted by chinkara View Post
What is mandatory is third party insurance...i.e. your mistakes costing others. AFAIK First party insurance in India is optional, and by inclusion, i.e. the insurance company defines what will be covered; rather than by exclusion, i.e. the company defining what will not be covered.
So not just fuel adulteration, but other stationary "accidents" are also difficult to claim. I remember a colleague had a hard time claiming for a windshield broken by a falling coconut.

That is why sometimes service centres concoct elaborate stories for insurance.

So, I support GTO's view that insurance has no role here. However, I still can't get over the 15 feet thing and can't help suspecting that either the earlier fill was bad or there was a leak somewhere in the fuel system.
You seem to have misunderstood my point of view. Its not about whether insurance 'would' cover the damage. Its about insurance 'should' cover the damage. All I am saying is that filling up adulterated fuel is also an accident and 'should' be covered under insurance.

Most insurance companies believe that their whole purpose is to collect the insurance premium cheques and nothing else. So I am not surprised by the coconut incident.
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Old 24th June 2013, 10:17   #33
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
I beg to differ on this particular case, going by the report that appears on this thread. If an unsuspecting consumer goes into a 'Company Owned and Operated' fuel pump and fills in the normal fuel which is required for his or her vehicle and then subsequently it is found that the fuel is adulterated which has resulted in severe damage to the vehicle, then I would certainly deem it a case for insurance and the consumer courts.
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Originally Posted by chinkara View Post
What is mandatory is third party insurance...i.e. your mistakes costing others. AFAIK First party insurance in India is optional, and by inclusion, i.e. the insurance company defines what will be covered; rather than by exclusion, i.e. the company defining what will not be covered.
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Beg to differ on this.
Aren't all accidents 'mistakes'? If insurance covers driving mistakes (even by the driver of the vehicle and not only by others), why should insurance not cover adultereted fuel filled up by-mistake?
I agree with GTO here. Adulterated fuel filling is "not accident". The consumer needs to be aware. In India, we have had enough and more incidents reported around adulterated fuel. So being an educated couple with an expensive car, I'd think that they need to be careful about where they fill up. Also, read the insurance policy fine print carefully about what is covered and what isn't. Adulterated fuel filling isn't covered as "accident". In other words, mistake != accident.

This is an issue which needs to be sorted out between the pump, oil company and the owner. First thing the Dr. should do is file a complaint in the complaint box, which I think he did. Then as GTO mentioned earlier in one of his posts, file a complaint with the BPCL. Then if matters do not get sorted out, use the consumer court or public grievances cell. A BHPI-ian who ran into insufficient quantity fuel already got it resolved.

http://www.pgportal.gov.in/Default.aspx
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Old 24th June 2013, 10:58   #34
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

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Originally Posted by Soumyajit9 View Post
Dr Ramesh Ranka of Ranka Hospital says impure fuel from BPCL pump near Khalapur naka spoiled his car, which needed repairs worth Rs 4.11 lakh
Khalapur toll naka has HP and IOCL pumps, not BP. BP pump is at Talegaon (other end of Expressway).

I always do a tank full (petrol) at IOCL, Khalapur while returning to Mumbai and found that the performance and mileage are better with that.
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Old 24th June 2013, 11:43   #35
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

IOCL Dealer here! And an A4 2.0TDI owner as well.
Number things wrong and fishy in this claim:
1) A lot of you have pointed it our earlier, 15 feet is too short a distance for the new fuel to be atomized, unless the tank and the fueling system was bone dry at the time of filling.
2) Most of the diesel cars filled at that particular pump should've suffered the same fate if the sample in the pic is actually what was filled.
3) IOCL, HP, BP nowadays have extremely stringent checks on fuel quality and it is extremely difficult for adulterators.Most, if not all, adulteration happens during transport if the Dealer uses a 3rd party transport provider.
4) Samples are taken during decantation of the tanker and anyone can figure out if the fuel is pure or not. The dealer would never agree to unload an adulterated load, since he does not make money on it.
5) If underground tanks have Water in them (most do), it never gets pumped out of the nozzle.

IMHO with the current standards and checks that we are subjected to, it is foolhardy as a dealer to try and make and extra buck by altering the fuel quality. I am sure that happens too, not saying it doesn't, but the sample in the picture is unbelievable (when you sell the damn thing for living,you can make that out).
The biggest problem that people face today is short filling by pump attendants in which they make money. The dealer may or may not be involved, but that is another long story for some other day.
There is a big fish in the story here somewhere!
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Old 24th June 2013, 11:54   #36
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

Getting adulterated fuel is a routine with most pumps. I have encountered dubious fuel quality from one of the leading pumps at Mohali. But the bad quality fuel mostly kills the injectors and we have to bear the price of somebody trying to make a fast buck. It is very difficult to pin the blame once you have moved out of the pump premises as they can always allege that the adulteration was done on purpose and that too outside the pump. After having seen an injector change due to bad fuel I try to be a pain in the butt for most pump guys as I make them do all the tests that they can do at the pump and show me the standard sheet for acceptable levels. Most do it happily. If I am pressed for time and or options I use a liberal dose of System D and fortunately the things seem to be fine till now. One thing that I ahve noticed is that with system D the low end engine sound becomes very coarse and almost its like the engine is sputtering.
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Old 24th June 2013, 13:08   #37
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

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Originally Posted by Devenu View Post
IOCL Dealer here! And an A4 2.0TDI owner as well.
Number things wrong and fishy in this claim:
4) Samples are taken during decantation of the tanker and anyone can figure out if the fuel is pure or not. The dealer would never agree to unload an adulterated load, since he does not make money on it.
5) If underground tanks have Water in them (most do), it never gets pumped out of the nozzle.
+1 to that, last Sunday while entering the BP Pump at Talegaon for tank up, I was refused by the attendant mentioning that there was water mixed with Diesel, and it was pouring heavily that day!

So it does look like some foul play by the owner/Audi Dealer. Worst case scenario would be, he drove the car through a pool of water at high speed, causing the water to enter the engine and later stall. Saw huge pools of water on the e-way that day, but then again, its a rare chance!

Last edited by Maverick5490 : 24th June 2013 at 13:10.
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Old 24th June 2013, 13:13   #38
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Unhappy Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devenu View Post
IOCL Dealer here! And an A4 2.0TDI owner as well.
Number things wrong and fishy in this claim:
1) A lot of you have pointed it our earlier, 15 feet is too short a distance for the new fuel to be atomized, unless the tank and the fueling system was bone dry at the time of filling.
2) Most of the diesel cars filled at that particular pump should've suffered the same fate if the sample in the pic is actually what was filled.
3) IOCL, HP, BP nowadays have extremely stringent checks on fuel quality and it is extremely difficult for adulterators.Most, if not all, adulteration happens during transport if the Dealer uses a 3rd party transport provider.
4) Samples are taken during decantation of the tanker and anyone can figure out if the fuel is pure or not. The dealer would never agree to unload an adulterated load, since he does not make money on it.
5) If underground tanks have Water in them (most do), it never gets pumped out of the nozzle.

IMHO with the current standards and checks that we are subjected to, it is foolhardy as a dealer to try and make and extra buck by altering the fuel quality. I am sure that happens too, not saying it doesn't, but the sample in the picture is unbelievable (when you sell the damn thing for living,you can make that out).
The biggest problem that people face today is short filling by pump attendants in which they make money. The dealer may or may not be involved, but that is another long story for some other day.
There is a big fish in the story here somewhere!
I big to differ with point (4) cited above. It has happened to me.
I Filled my previously owned Suzuki GSXR1000 wid fuel from a Reliance Pump and the bike stalled. After repeatedly trying to start had to load it on a truck and get it the service centre only to find out half the tank is filled with water. The pump claims water doesn't pump in through the nozzle and in the end agreed to return money for the fuel i had filled. Since the engine didnt crank i had to get the fuel filter replaced and the tank cleaned out and it got sorted, cant think of what would have happened otherwise.
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Old 24th June 2013, 15:22   #39
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

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Originally Posted by sudeepg View Post
Adulterated fuel filling is "not accident". The consumer needs to be aware. In India, we have had enough and more incidents reported around adulterated fuel. So being an educated couple with an expensive car, I'd think that they need to be careful about where they fill up.
Any suggestions as to- how do we determine where to fuel up while traveling through a different city for the first time? Cause every pump is branded either HP, BP, IOC, IBP, Rel, Shell...
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Old 24th June 2013, 15:56   #40
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

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Originally Posted by karan561 View Post
Everything from the story seems to be true, the only bit i question is the car stopping in about 15 feet after fueling up.
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Originally Posted by jkrishnakj View Post
Exactly what i was thinking. Another thought is, the previous fuel fill would be have been bad, that the "Last Bits " of the previous fill had reached the Engine to stop functioning.
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Originally Posted by chinkara View Post
Agree. In 15 feet, fuel already in the pipings would be consumed. So, even if the fuel got mixed in the tank, it is unlikely that the new fuel would enter the Engine.
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Originally Posted by wantarangerover View Post
The 15 feet bit is indeed something that seems fishy. Maybe blown out of proportion for making a dramatic story.
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Originally Posted by AbelAFC View Post
Shouldn't there be other cars too which should have been affected by this? I mean, if it stopped within 15 feet, the quality of the fuel must have been appalling.
I once filled up my 2005 Swift with around 35 litres of petrol and the car started jerking violently within the petrol pump premises itself, well within 15 feet. I attributed it to some sediments from my own tank and continued driving with a very light foot. A wee bit more fuel(increased accelerator input) and the jerking would start.

Pulled over after about 100 metres and called up Maruti A**. Mind you I had just given the car for routine servicing the previous day and was suspecting some lapse from the A**. They arrive and after checking the fuel, declare it spurious. They made me smell the petrol and it certainly was not smelling like petrol, diesel or kerosene for that matter.

I agreed to drain off the entire fuel and the car limps back to normalcy after about 100 more kms. My complaints went in vain and I did not bother to pursue the matter anymore. But I made sure that every person in the vicinity heard of the incident.

And guess what? There were many more who had a similar issue from the same pump.

I have gone out of topic but this post is to clarify that the problem could have well occurred within the 15 feet as per my personal experience.
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Old 24th June 2013, 17:29   #41
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

Coincidence !! One of my team members who was travelling back from Pune to Hyderabad 2 weeks ago narrated a similar experience just couple of hours ago!! He filled around 5 Lts of Petrol in his car in a Petrol Bunk near Hadapsar 10:30pm in the night before starting for Hyderabad. His car tank already had more than 30 Lts of petrol.After filling petrol, his Figo stopped barely 50 mts from the Petrol Bunk. He had to call Ford service to tow the vehicle. When they emptied his Petrol tank, they found he had around 3 lts of water in his car tank. When he went back to the Petrol bunk next morning to complain, the bunk was shutdown; the people acknowledge that water had seeped into one of the Petrol Bunk tanks !!!
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Old 24th June 2013, 18:01   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sudeepg View Post

I agree with GTO here. Adulterated fuel filling is "not accident". The consumer needs to be aware. In India, we have had enough and more incidents reported around adulterated fuel. So being an educated couple with an expensive car, I'd think that they need to be careful about where they fill up. Also, read the insurance policy fine print carefully about what is covered and what isn't. Adulterated fuel filling isn't covered as "accident". In other words, mistake != accident.

This is an issue which needs to be sorted out between the pump, oil company and the owner. First thing the Dr. should do is file a complaint in the complaint box, which I think he did. Then as GTO mentioned earlier in one of his posts, file a complaint with the BPCL. Then if matters do not get sorted out, use the consumer court or public grievances cell. A BHPI-ian who ran into insufficient quantity fuel already got it resolved.

http://www.pgportal.gov.in/Default.aspx
I do not agree that the onus is placed only and solely on the car owner. One goes to a company owned and company operated petrol pump in good faith. Providing first class quality to a consumer is the responsibility of the pump owning company. No layman consumer is going to know the difference between adulterated and pure fuel because we cannot analyse the composition of the fuel using our bare hands and eyes and nose. I think it is deadly unfair placing the responsibility solely on the consumer.
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Old 24th June 2013, 18:07   #43
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

Whenever storage of diesel is not proper(faulty tanks) leading to contamination by dirt and water, it is going to affect the engine.
I see a lot of posts commenting upon the dirt. Impurities like dirt if present, will choke up the filters, and you won't get engine damage.
Also, when you put fuel in a bottle, dirt will be visible, and from a news channel/media perspective this makes a great story.
Laymen often look at the visible culprit, the dirt, and forget about what actually caused the damage.
And that object is water.

In Tata safari there is a sedimeter to remove water from diesel, so that no water gets passed on. You can remove the stopper at bottom to remove accumulated water.
When sedimeter is near full, a warning lamp lights up. If you ignore this, water will go forward into the system, and this can cause injector damage, and then you are looking at serious repairs.
I think the case here is water adultration. Diesel fuel can hold large amounts of water, and many pumps do not have proper isolation mechanisms in their tanks. So during rainy season large amount of water will get mixed into diesel, and then you are in trouble.
Does Audi have a sedimeter and a warning light to indicate presence of water. Audi owners, please comment?

Last edited by tsk1979 : 24th June 2013 at 18:09.
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Old 24th June 2013, 18:58   #44
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

Filling of adulterated fuel cannot be made out to be a consumers fault by the Insurance companies. How can the consumer be 'aware' that he is getting adulterated fuel filled. It is the onus of the oil companies to ensure and if they fail to do so he is fully justified in asking for compensation from the Insurance company. Because if being hit by a truck due to faulty traffic conditions in India is an accident so is being duped by fuel pump owners who fill up adulterated fuel in our cars.

Also Audi cannot wash off its hands 'if' it has not taken into account the lower quality of fuel available in India and provided safety measures in their cars so that the same does not harm the engine. If you have to sell your cars in India you have the responsibility to provide India compatible cars.
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Old 24th June 2013, 20:27   #45
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Default Re: Adulterated diesel costs Audi A6 owner Rs 4.11 lakhs

The News Media reports that the adulterant added was mud and water. I have heard of adding kerosene. How is it that only this car was affected and not any others which may have filled up at the station.

I am sure that petrol pumps take enough precaution to ensure that the fuel reservoir at the pump does not get contaminated. Also anyone familiar with petrol pumps clarify if there is any mechanism to keep water being pumped in case of accidental contamination?

Again if it was sabotage by someone , it must have happened at the pump , since the fuel would float on the water.
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