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Old 6th December 2014, 20:08   #151
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Default Honda Amaze safety

Recently, my colleagues brother met with an accident in his Honda Amaze. Following is the description of the event in his words.
"My cousin brother was driving the car in a 4 lane highway at 60-80 kmph. Suddenly another vehicle came through a median gap from the opposite side. So he has to get down the tarmac a bit to avoid collision. However when he did so, the car toppled and rolled over a few times. Though my bro escaped unhurt as he was wearing the seat belt, our aunt in the rear seat was not. During the impact, despite the car being central locked, the rear door opened and she was thrown out of the car and fell on the tarmac. She had severe injuries and have to be in ICU for more than a week."

I have couple of questions here.
  1. How the car can topple even for such a slight movement out of the tarmac?
  2. When it did so, how come the door opened though it was locked?
Could you please help me with the answers/thoughts around for these?
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Old 6th December 2014, 20:29   #152
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Default Re: Honda Amaze safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crank View Post
However when he did so, the car toppled and rolled over a few times. Though my bro escaped unhurt as he was wearing the seat belt, our aunt in the rear seat was not. During the impact, despite the car being central locked, the rear door opened and she was thrown out of the car and fell on the tarmac. She had severe injuries and have to be in ICU for more than a week."

I have couple of questions here.
  1. How the car can topple even for such a slight movement out of the tarmac?
  2. When it did so, how come the door opened though it was locked?
Could you please help me with the answers/thoughts around for these?
Sorry to hear about the incident Sir. Hope all are fine now and all have recovered from the incident!

Now before I answer your questions, I have a question for you:

1) What was the speed when he did that manoeuvre? Was it between 60-80 kmph?

2) How big / deep was the dip of the tarmac?

I feel the shift of gravity caused the car to lift and topple, being high speed this would have happened.

Regarding the doors opening during the accident is surprising assuming it was locked during the drive as these don't lock if they are opened manually after the lock does 'auto-lock'.

Anurag.
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Old 6th December 2014, 20:31   #153
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Default Honda Amaze safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crank View Post

I have couple of questions here.
  1. How the car can topple even for such a slight movement out of the tarmac?
  2. When it did so, how come the door opened though it was locked?
Could you please help me with the answers/thoughts around for these?

Did the car move from the right most lane to the shoulder? If it's so, may be the driver gave too much steering input suddenly and coupled with dip onto the Tarmac resulted in the car toppling.

In Modern cars all doors unlock on impact, so as to prevent the passengers from getting trapped. But in this case, since the door opened before impact
-the doors were left unlocked and something got tangled in the handle, say a handbag sling
-door was not properly locked in the first place.
-are the lady went into panic mode and tried to jump out.( sounds absurd, but I know people who always sit next doors with doors unlocked)

In Dzire, there is a continuously audible beep in case a door is not properly closed with keys in acc and all doors auto lock once you cross 20kmph. Are these features included in amaze?

Above all, this incident show that it's important to make sure even the rare passengers belt.

Last edited by Akhilash95 : 6th December 2014 at 20:39.
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Old 7th December 2014, 08:28   #154
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Default Re: Honda Amaze safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crank View Post
  1. How the car can topple even for such a slight movement out of the tarmac?
  2. When it did so, how come the door opened though it was locked?
If we maneuver too quickly out of proportion (mostly when panic) on a high speed drive, that could let the car take off and topple, even a small object (possibly a small stone) increases that risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akhilash95 View Post

In Modern cars all doors unlock on impact, so as to prevent the passengers from getting trapped. But in this case, since the door opened before impact
-the doors were left unlocked and something got tangled in the handle, say a handbag sling
-door was not properly locked in the first place.
-are the lady went into panic mode and tried to jump out.( sounds absurd, but I know people who always sit next doors with doors unlocked)

Above all, this incident show that it's important to make sure even the rare passengers belt.
Amaze doesn't come with the impact sensing door unlock. So we need to infer it could be other points Akhilash95 have noted.

It is possible that an impact could have fiddled with the lock lever that resulted in the door opening. I remember how a very light strike using a steel ribbon (through the gap after removing the rubber window sweep) has opened my brother's Indica door. I was picking the lock as we left the key inside and it auto-locked.
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Old 7th December 2014, 12:49   #155
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Default Re: Honda Amaze safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crank View Post
How the car can topple even for such a slight movement out of the tarmac?
If the car was at highway speed, and the left wheels were taken off the smooth road onto the rougher shoulder, the left side wheels will be slowed down much faster due to friction with the rougher surface.

This, coupled with other factors like sharp steering input will have contributed to the rollover.

I presume the vehicle rolled over to the right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crank View Post
When it did so, how come the door opened though it was locked?
Were the door frame/door misshapen due to the rollover? If yes, that might be the reason the lock popped. Or were the door/frame intact? Then I'm not sure why the door opened.

Do you have a picture of the car for us to see the extent of damage?
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Old 7th December 2014, 13:05   #156
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Default Re: Honda Amaze safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crank View Post
I have couple of questions here.
  1. How the car can topple even for such a slight movement out of the tarmac?
  2. When it did so, how come the door opened though it was locked?
Could you please help me with the answers/thoughts around for these?
Extremely sorry to hear about this accident.
1) If the wheels on that side digs into the soil when the car comes off tarmac the vehicle can roll over. The soil could be soft or there must've been some rut/obstruction where the wheels caught and flipped the car over.

2) During this incident the rear occupant may have panicked and where trying to hold on to something and may have accidentally pulled the unlock lever and the doors may not have been locked. Or the lock gave way (not impossible but chances are low.)

Hope the rear passenger makes it through and get well!
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Old 7th December 2014, 13:46   #157
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Default Re: Honda Amaze safety

Very sorry to hear about the accident.

Was the car travelling at 60-80, as pointed out, when the driver swerved the car and went off the tarmac, and what steering input was given when swerving? IMO, a big/large steering input at these speeds might have (though 60-80 seems to be a not so high speed) overturned the car. Or it might be that there was a pretty big pothole/boulder on the brim or the roadside which might have resulted into the car overturning.

Bit opening of locked door seems very improbable.
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Old 7th December 2014, 15:46   #158
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Default Re: Honda Amaze safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crank View Post
Though my bro escaped unhurt as he was wearing the seat belt, our aunt in the rear seat was not. During the impact, despite the car being central locked, the rear door opened and she was thrown out of the car and fell on the tarmac. She had severe injuries and have to be in ICU for more than a week."
Seat belts for every occupant of a car - can't stop emphasizing on this point every time. Glad no lives were lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crank View Post
So he has to get down the tarmac a bit to avoid collision.
I have couple of questions here.
  1. How the car can topple even for such a slight movement out of the tarmac?
  1. The laws of physics don't change. Whatever the gent may say verbally, he has to have overstepped the physical limits of the car to roll it over. What he might consider a bit is definitely a lot more than just a bit.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Crank View Post
  2. When it did so, how come the door opened though it was locked?
Honda doors AFAIK do not auto-lock, unlike most other cars. Perhaps another owner can confirm. In any case, locking a door does not necessarily mean it cannot burst open, if structural damage is suffucient.

A proper accident investigation procedure (unheard of in India) can reveal the specific answers to your questions. Till then, every other answer (including mine) is pure speculation.
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Old 7th December 2014, 15:59   #159
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Default Re: Honda Amaze safety

Sorry to hear about this incident. I hope your aunt gets well soon.

Now to answer your questions

1) Extra fast steering maneuvers along coupled with change of tarmac can unsettle the best handling cars. The scenario changes from situation to situation and driver to driver. Even a thing like difference in tyre pressures can change the handling characteristics of a car and many a times save you for tricky situations

2) Secondly about the door opening when the car was rolling over, it is indeed surprising, the reason for which only Honda can give. To me it looks like the impact damaged the door locking mechanism because of which the door opened on impact.
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Old 8th December 2014, 10:35   #160
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Default Re: Honda Amaze safety

1) Momentum swing. Maybe he was slowing down, and the speedometer reading was 60-80, but the momentum would still be higher. In that case a sudden swirl, would make the laws of Physics swoop in.

Or could it be that he hit another vehicle on the left? Many times we forget what actually happened during such high adrenaline phases.

2) When the car rolled, the impact on the sides or the top of the rear gate could have caused the gate's locks to fail.

Last edited by GTO : 11th December 2014 at 13:25. Reason: Typos
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Old 8th December 2014, 13:00   #161
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Default Re: Honda Amaze safety

The car rolling over is explainable by physics.
Did the wheels lock as you turned or braked?
The door unlocking is unusual and may be purely due to impact which may be even your aunt being thrown against the door at high speed.
That aside, I firmly hope that you and your aunt act as ambassadors to stress on the importance of seat belts for all occupants in a car.
I hope at least a few people reading this thread buckle up after reading this.
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Old 8th December 2014, 13:07   #162
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Default Re: Honda Amaze safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crank View Post
  1. How the car can topple even for such a slight movement out of the tarmac?
Could you please help me with the answers/thoughts around for these?
You don't need much speed for a car to topple.

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Old 10th December 2014, 14:35   #163
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Default Re: Evasive manoeuvres & Rollovers?

OK, now few points on this incident.
  • The speed was approx. 60 kmph as he slowed down seeing the vehicle in opposite direction
  • The driver was in control and there is not much out of control on steering till he get down the tarmac

It's my colleagues bro and not me. Also his aunt got discharged from the hospital 2 weeks back and she is now doing good, though she is a bit shaken.


He was not able to click photos of the car as he has to save his aunt first. :-(


I have done such maneuvers in my Vento and never felt at loss of control. Hence I am a bit doubtful about Amaze's stability.
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Old 10th December 2014, 17:51   #164
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Default Re: Evasive manoeuvres & Rollovers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crank View Post
...I have done such maneuvers in my Vento and never felt at loss of control. Hence I am a bit doubtful about Amaze's stability.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Unless the exact "maneuvers" are replicated in both cars, it is moot questioning a car's "stability" vis-a-vis another. Also, I suggest you do not do such "maneuvers" even if you feel no loss of control.
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Old 11th December 2014, 03:33   #165
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Default Re: Evasive manoeuvres & Rollovers?

First of all, thanks for all the responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenjiRoss View Post
The car rolling over is explainable by physics.
Did the wheels lock as you turned or braked?
The door unlocking is unusual and may be purely due to impact which may be even your aunt being thrown against the door at high speed.
That aside, I firmly hope that you and your aunt act as ambassadors to stress on the importance of seat belts for all occupants in a car.
I hope at least a few people reading this thread buckle up after reading this.
Wheels didn't lock due to braking. I am still not able to understand the rolling. We may just say Physics. But IMHO, a rotary movement stimulated by such a small distortion to centre of gravity and that too at such a nominal speed is unbeleivable.

On the dors, we can only speculate. Don't know what exactly happened. :-(

Yes, seat belts save lives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post

1) Extra fast steering maneuvers along coupled with change of tarmac can unsettle the best handling cars. The scenario changes from situation to situation and driver to driver. Even a thing like difference in tyre pressures can change the handling characteristics of a car and many a times save you for tricky situations

2) Secondly about the door opening when the car was rolling over, it is indeed surprising, the reason for which only Honda can give. To me it looks like the impact damaged the door locking mechanism because of which the door opened on impact.
Is 60 kmph extra fast? Different tyre pressures could be a reason. But I checked with him and got to know that he checked the tyre pressure before the journey and ensured it is inflated to the recommended pressures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
The laws of physics don't change. Whatever the gent may say verbally, he has to have overstepped the physical limits of the car to roll it over. What he might consider a bit is definitely a lot more than just a bit.

Honda doors AFAIK do not auto-lock, unlike most other cars. Perhaps another owner can confirm. In any case, locking a door does not necessarily mean it cannot burst open, if structural damage is suffucient.

A proper accident investigation procedure (unheard of in India) can reveal the specific answers to your questions. Till then, every other answer (including mine) is pure speculation.
Limits of the car is something that is hard to understand in a country like India that throws so much different unimaginable scenarios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deepfusion View Post
Very sorry to hear about the accident.

Was the car travelling at 60-80, as pointed out, when the driver swerved the car and went off the tarmac, and what steering input was given when swerving? IMO, a big/large steering input at these speeds might have (though 60-80 seems to be a not so high speed) overturned the car. Or it might be that there was a pretty big pothole/boulder on the brim or the roadside which might have resulted into the car overturning.

Bit opening of locked door seems very improbable.
He was on the LHS lane of the road. Hence not that much of steering input. What I hear about the depth beside the tarmac is a bit over average, but not too deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Extremely sorry to hear about this accident.
1) If the wheels on that side digs into the soil when the car comes off tarmac the vehicle can roll over. The soil could be soft or there must've been some rut/obstruction where the wheels caught and flipped the car over.

2) During this incident the rear occupant may have panicked and where trying to hold on to something and may have accidentally pulled the unlock lever and the doors may not have been locked. Or the lock gave way (not impossible but chances are low.)

Hope the rear passenger makes it through and get well!
Wheels getting caught could be a possible reason. Will check with him on the sand condition.
On the door, but not sure what she did. She can't say anything now. She is too shocked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
If the car was at highway speed, and the left wheels were taken off the smooth road onto the rougher shoulder, the left side wheels will be slowed down much faster due to friction with the rougher surface.

This, coupled with other factors like sharp steering input will have contributed to the rollover.

I presume the vehicle rolled over to the right?


Were the door frame/door misshapen due to the rollover? If yes, that might be the reason the lock popped. Or were the door/frame intact? Then I'm not sure why the door opened.

Do you have a picture of the car for us to see the extent of damage?
The car was running at 60 kmph. He was driving in left lane and turning a bit to the LHS.
Door opening, again we can only speculate or only Honda can explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Sorry to hear about the incident Sir. Hope all are fine now and all have recovered from the incident!

Now before I answer your questions, I have a question for you:

1) What was the speed when he did that manoeuvre? Was it between 60-80 kmph?

2) How big / deep was the dip of the tarmac?

I feel the shift of gravity caused the car to lift and topple, being high speed this would have happened.

Regarding the doors opening during the accident is surprising assuming it was locked during the drive as these don't lock if they are opened manually after the lock does 'auto-lock'.

Anurag.
Yes, shift of CG is the reason. That is understood. But with such a situation where you just get down the tarmac and rolling over is a bit too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akhilash95 View Post
Did the car move from the right most lane to the shoulder? If it's so, may be the driver gave too much steering input suddenly and coupled with dip onto the Tarmac resulted in the car toppling.

In Modern cars all doors unlock on impact, so as to prevent the passengers from getting trapped. But in this case, since the door opened before impact
-the doors were left unlocked and something got tangled in the handle, say a handbag sling
-door was not properly locked in the first place.
-are the lady went into panic mode and tried to jump out.( sounds absurd, but I know people who always sit next doors with doors unlocked)

In Dzire, there is a continuously audible beep in case a door is not properly closed with keys in acc and all doors auto lock once you cross 20kmph. Are these features included in amaze?

Above all, this incident show that it's important to make sure even the rare passengers belt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by D C View Post
If we maneuver too quickly out of proportion (mostly when panic) on a high speed drive, that could let the car take off and topple, even a small object (possibly a small stone) increases that risk.

Amaze doesn't come with the impact sensing door unlock. So we need to infer it could be other points Akhilash95 have noted.

It is possible that an impact could have fiddled with the lock lever that resulted in the door opening. I remember how a very light strike using a steel ribbon (through the gap after removing the rubber window sweep) has opened my brother's Indica door. I was picking the lock as we left the key inside and it auto-locked.
60 kmph was the speed as said before. Lock again - no idea, what happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer1881 View Post
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Unless the exact "maneuvers" are replicated in both cars, it is moot questioning a car's "stability" vis-a-vis another. Also, I suggest you do not do such "maneuvers" even if you feel no loss of control.
It's not a risky maneuver as such, in India. :-)
It just happens quiet often in Indian roads. Haven't you got down the tarmac at anytime? It cannot be even called as a maneuver.

That is why both me and my friend were speculating Amaze's stability.

Last edited by Crank : 11th December 2014 at 03:52.
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