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Old 12th August 2013, 17:53   #16
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Can you share some data?
You made a statement calling something a scam. I can believe you if you can show me some data which shows that vehicles with longer service intervals have a shorter engine life.

Alternatively, you can show lab results showing that 10,000kms old engine oil has significantly greater lubricating properties than 20,000kms engine oil(Using recommended engine oil).

Without data I may wonder if the basic premise of this thread is a scam.
One interesting case that raises questions is - Skoda, once again .

Around 3 and half years ago, Skoda suddenly issued a notice that their cars will need 1 year/15,000 km service intervals instead of 6 months/7,500 km intervals which were mandatory until then. I was happy to read this until I saw that this also applied to the cars already sold over last many years!!! Now that's strange isn't it? Nothing has changed in those old cars. If these cars were not designed/manufactured to survive beyond 6 months/7,500 km without a service, how can they survive going forward? Some magic happened???

When I asked the dealer, they had no real answer. Then they told me Skoda uses synthetic oil, so I told them Skoda was always enforcing synthetic oil, so has the oil changed? Or the filter? They didn't reply.

The question is:
Was Skoda looting customers until now (by more frequent servicing than required) or is Skoda going to cheat customers going forward (by less than required servicing that will eventually lead to major issues/shorter engine life)?
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Old 12th August 2013, 17:56   #17
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

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Originally Posted by k_nitin_r View Post
Rs.1,000/-?
Are you getting a comprehensive check-up, top-up, and wheel alignment/balancing for the Rs.1,000/-? If not, you should. At the minimum, at least a wheel alignment/balancing, which should cost them nothing and is needed if you drive in the pot-hole ridden roads during the monsoons.
hi k_nitin_r
No, But I wish they would. You see all they offer is a check-up and wash. Well the wash is in two stages - a pre-wash and a post-wash (as if that is any consolation!)

Top-ups are charged extra. Wheel alignment, balancing is extra.
But I grin and bear the Rs 1000/- because, if I don't get the vehicle checked up, then they could refuse an in-warranty repair of a serviceable part citing, that I did not stick to the "official" maintenance schedule.

That I am not willing to risk, so I view the Rs 1000/- as an insurance premium to keep my warranty going!
Wierd logic? I agree. But I have no choice.
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Old 12th August 2013, 18:17   #18
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

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Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
But I grin and bear the Rs 1000/- because, if I don't get the vehicle checked up, then they could refuse an in-warranty repair of a serviceable part citing, that I did not stick to the "official" maintenance schedule.
This is dealer or manufacturer official maintenance?
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Old 12th August 2013, 18:20   #19
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

A company can increase service intervals if the quality of oil it recommends gets better.
So its quite possible, that the current oil Skoda recommends for its cars does not degrade significantly over 15000kms.

What does service do every 7500 or ever 5000 or every 15000kms. you will see that most oils usually have long drain intervals (Transmission, power steering etc.,).
Engine oil usually gets changed at every service.

the frequency of change of engine oil does not depend only on the engine. It also depends upon
1. Engine oil type - Synthetics are more resistant to time. So 5000kms 6 months or 5000kms 2 years you will see similar lubrication properties
2. Engine oil temp rating - Resistant to high temperatures, again synthetics are better
3. Engine oil grade API rating - API-CI oil will offer better lubrication and protection(esp while using low sulfur diesel) as opposed to API-CF oil.

So you need not modify the engine to get a longer drain interval. Its more dependent upon the engine oil type used.

Second factor is the quality of oil filteration used. Lets take an engine which is not overheating and operating normally.
What will degrade engine oil?
Contaminants. In dusty conditions, air filter may not be enough, so what do you have, contaminated engine oil. A better design of oil filter can extend engine oil life.
So same engine, new material in oil filter can mean better drain intervals.

Now lets come to cars manufactured in the last few years, esp the diesels.
Common rail diesels are very susceptible to contaminants. so you have an army of filters and engine designs are much tighter.
However this means high operating temperatures under load (Eg Tata safari engine coolant normal temp is around 96 degree C).
An old API-CD class engine oil (mineral) will degrade within 5000kms and you will not get lubrication.
However, use mobil delvac high drain API-CI+ synthetic oil, and you can even go beyond 15000kms without oil degradation.

So when a company changes service interval, it could be doing so depending upon change in oil filters, oil quality etc.,
It is also possible, that as a new entrant with no long term data available to engineers about operating conditions, an extra conservative interval was set. Analyzing many cars over years, the engineers could have come to the conclusion that engine oil can last longer, esp synthetics.

Last but not the least, most companies having 20K drain interval often have a fine print. In dusty conditions they often recommend half the interval. Similarly for city load conditions you can have shorter drain intervals.

On a related note how would you like a 400,000 mile drain interval?
http://www.oaitesting.com/testimonials/g1343.pdf


An interesting article
http://www.donsoil.com/drainintervals.pdf

Last edited by tsk1979 : 12th August 2013 at 18:23.
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Old 12th August 2013, 20:53   #20
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
This is dealer or manufacturer official maintenance?
The dealer specified maintenance.
However please see also :

Toyota has specified service actions based on two types of operating conditions - normal and special.

I have attached what these mean, and also the service actions under each type. This is from the operating manual.
Innova Maintenance Schedule.pdf

If I did not adhere to the dealer specified maintenance schedule (5k or 6 months whichever is earlier), the dealer has sufficient flexibility in the letter of the operating manual- to claim the vehicle had been operated under special operating conditions, without a chance for his 'experts' to take preventive actions during every 5k check up.

And it would be very difficult to prove this otherwise, because it would be my word against the dealer's.

Hence, the Rs 1000/- for a wash every 6 months ....
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Old 12th August 2013, 20:55   #21
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

IMO, the 1yr service interval works well for most of the population. People rarely do mileage based service. Most cars dont run even 10000kms in a year. Synthetic oils have a longer shelf life and don't need to be replaced within a 1yr time-frame.

As long as they look after the battery, going for service once a year for these cars makes sense as they don't have to be inconvenienced by leaving their cars for a day.
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Old 12th August 2013, 20:57   #22
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
The dealer specified maintenance.
However please see also :

Toyota has specified service actions based on two types of operating conditions - normal and special.

I have attached what these mean, and also the service actions under each type. This is from the operating manual.
Attachment 1124597

If I did not adhere to the dealer specified maintenance schedule (5k or 6 months whichever is earlier), the dealer has sufficient flexibility in the letter of the operating manual- to claim the vehicle had been operated under special operating conditions, without a chance for his 'experts' to take preventive actions during every 5k check up.

And it would be very difficult to prove this otherwise, because it would be my word against the dealer's.

Hence, the Rs 1000/- for a wash every 6 months ....
You do not need to worry. If the owners manual says service interval of 10000kms you can safely do 10,000kms without worrying about special conditions and stuff.
No dealer will claim "special conditions" and deny warranty saying you did not get 5000kms service.
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Old 12th August 2013, 23:27   #23
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

@tsk,
I am specifically talking about older cars - for which nothing has changed - same old engine, same old filters, same grade of oils.

For newer engines/cars, I have nothing to say. Benefit of doubt goes to the manufacturer.
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Old 13th August 2013, 09:54   #24
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

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Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
@tsk,
I am specifically talking about older cars - for which nothing has changed - same old engine, same old filters, same grade of oils.

For newer engines/cars, I have nothing to say. Benefit of doubt goes to the manufacturer.
Service center will not get a different brand of oil for older cars. Everybody gets the same diet.
And as I said in one of the lines, initial recommendation may be over-conservative, and then after studying the wear and tear etc., drain interval can be extended.
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Old 13th August 2013, 11:03   #25
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
If the owners manual says service interval of 10000kms you can safely do 10,000kms without worrying about special conditions and stuff.
At least some manuals carry the specification of oil change /servicing intervals for non-standard conditions. Interval for when driving in such conditions is almost half regular intervals.
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Old 13th August 2013, 11:51   #26
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
In my personal experience with Maruti, I stuck with the manufacturer recommended 10k interval instead of the dealer recommended 5k.
This 5k interval that the dealer likes to bring in is just a inspection and water wash.
Ditto for Honda! Only they will like to do an oil change as well (most eco-unfriendly)
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Old 13th August 2013, 11:55   #27
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

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Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post

If I did not adhere to the dealer specified maintenance schedule (5k or 6 months whichever is earlier), the dealer has sufficient flexibility in the letter of the operating manual- to claim the vehicle had been operated under special operating conditions, without a chance for his 'experts' to take preventive actions during every 5k check up.
The dealer can recommend. Its totally upto you if you want this done. Please do not consider the dealers word as the final thing. In fact given that its a Toyota and the way they operate, I place a lot of trust in the manufacturer to do the right thing.
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Old 14th August 2013, 19:07   #28
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

To answer the accusation that this thread is a scam – all I try to do is inform with hard facts and my own experience down the years. It seems that the relationship between customer and garage is very distrustful in India, so I am not surprised at some of the cynicism when I point out the other side of the matter, and how less servicing can actually cost the customer more.

The motor industry relies on public ignorance to make money when it comes to repairs and servicing. tsk1979, I am not going to go looking for data to support your suggestion that oil is as good a lubricant after 20,000 as after 10,000km. With a perfect engine and fully synthetic oil, there is a chance the oil will be almost as good. But in the everyday world, air filters aren't perfect, oil filters cannot filter out combustion by-products and so oil deteriorates, even if it is fully synthetic. If you wish to stretch your oil intervals to 20 or 30,000km then do so. Trying to get a garage to give you a new engine when you are about to have your third oil change – and the engine packs up – is not an easy thing to do. Oil is cheaper than engines. There are other threads on here discussing the point of fully synthetic oil - only the most highly stressed and expensive engines really need it.

I suggested 10,000km intervals rather than 20,000 – not 5,000km intervals, unless this is what is recommended. The motor industry is out to make as much money as possible from the public and stretching service intervals has nothing to do with wanting to save you money. It helps sell new cars, means much more expensive oils have to be used (with bigger profits) and damage which a vehicle sustains between services is likely to be much worse the longer it is left unattended.

For example, one of your driveshaft boots tears or is cut by a stone. Slowly the grease leaks out of the joint and water and grit can get in. If this is allowed to go on long enough, the joint will be badly worn. The chances are that by the time it has started making bad noises it is too late. Servicing at 10,000km rather than 20 gives such damage less time to go unchecked – the rubber boot can be replaced and the joint cleaned and regreased. If it runs dry and is damaged with grit then a new joint or whole driveshaft is needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
I agree with your viewpoint that most cars can do with shorter oil change intervals than the 15k or 20k km that manufacturers recommend, given that they are used in less-than-ideal / harsh conditions as you describe.

Considering that we in India face scams where a dealer asks the customer to bring his car in more frequently than the manufacturer recommends (Dealer SCAM : Service the car *more frequently* than required!), this thread may well contribute to supporting such scams - next time, a dealer may well quote this thread and tell a customer that more-frequent-than-recommended service intervals are good for his car! And I'll need to add one more post to this article which lists almost all possible scams in India (ARTICLE: Common SCAMS Encountered on Indian Roads - A Compendium).
That’s interesting, SS-Traveller. I think what is most important is that a motorist finds a dealer in whom he has great trust. This is usually gained by the service manager explaining exactly why they feel a particular car needs what they recommend. If the explanation makes sense to the customer, then it can be seen that the garage isn’t simply trying to drum up more business – in reality they are attempting to prevent premature wear of a car. Two identical cars doing identical mileage can wear very differently, according to their use and servicing.

I am pleased you have linked this thread - knowledge is all. It is up to the individual to make best use of it. It is well-known that a customer who finds an honest garage and takes its advice will be treated well with the garage often going above and beyond the normal call of duty (at least here in Britain that is the case) - if he tries to ignore genuine advice to prevent wear then the garage isn't going to have any qualms fitting new parts as needed. There sets up a viscious circle of doubt and distrust, the customer ends up trying all sorts of different garages - sometimes these things come down to personal chemistry, but beware the less-than-honest service centre with a very charming manager who knows all the tricks to extract the most money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
c) I have found on occasion that the bill contained unreasonable charges for labor and parts replacement - which were definitely not due for replacement (definitely not as per the manual, and quite definitely not due to failure). Be careful about consumables in this category - example - wiper blades
True, garages may try to defraud a customer. In which case the necessary legal steps should be taken. But there is also the case where a car is sent away with wiper blades which although old, aren’t yet falling apart. Following a few days of wet weather, the customer is forced to replace the wipers himself while on a journey – not always an easy thing to do on modern cars. He is furious and complains to the garage who have just given his car a full service, who note that the wipers a shop sold him were not only of a poor grade which will not last well but which were also the wrong size. Yet more expense if the customer decides to have the correct ones fitted. The garage is a service industry and judging customers’ needs and attitudes to such things may not always be easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
I don't understand the point. Today even the cheapest car like the Nano has a 10k/annual service interval which ensures I don't see the garage folks more than once a year - unless there are running repairs.

So the point is: Why do you think I should take my car to the service centre more often? Are we taking the doctrine of preventive maintenance a bit too far??
My point was that when oil changes start occuring every 20,000km or less often you might consider letting a garage (or diy) change the oil more often, for the well-being of the engine. They may notice damage at the same time, which can be sorted quickly and inexpensively – if left another year or 10,000km+ then the chances are it will not be such a quick or cheap repair. There is a safety aspect to this, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bblost View Post
I would also like to see some solid data to back this claim.
In my personal experience with Maruti, I stuck with the manufacturer recommended 10k interval instead of the dealer recommended 5k.
This 5k interval that the dealer likes to bring in is just a inspection and water wash.
I can do that myself. [IMG]file:///C:\Users\HP\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cli p_image001.gif[/IMG]
I think you misread my original post, bblost. Where did I suggest 5000km intervals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
Perhaps one doesn't really need a PhD thesis on this matter.
I remember very clearly that Skoda increased the service interval (a few years back) even thought there were no changes made in their cars, engine oils, service methodologies or environmental conditions in India.

It was done purely to make it appear cheaper to maintain the vehicle.
Wouldn't you call it scam?

Well done alpha1! VW group sell a lot of cars in Europe where garage hourly rates are high – over £100 an hour in the South East of England. So there is good sense in reducing the time spends in a garage as much as is safe. But most Brits with any idea of engines never let them go 30,000km without an oil change.

However, it must be noted that engines generally last a long time. It's just that engine failure is so expensive, and oil is so cheap. Manufacturers push servicing intervals to the longest possible. But I feel not having your car looked over/oil changed more often than once every 20 or 30,000km is unwise, for both vehicle longevity and personal safety.
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Old 14th August 2013, 20:20   #29
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Default re: Long Service Intervals: Pros & Cons

Suzuki used to initially have 5K service intervals for their cars, which has since become 10K intervals (possibly after the move from carb to MPFI). We followed what was specified for the specific car in the manual - the 1999 M800 goes in for service every 5K kms, while the Baleno goes in at the specified 10K intervals. I think 10K is a pretty reasonable interval for service / oil-change, but again here I would defer to the manufacturer, as I would think they know their cars best.

I would not mind sparing the time/effort to get the car to a service-centre for a quick & economical 5K-km checkup, if only the typical authorised-garages here (irrespective of brand) were not the cheats they are, as is evident from various threads on the forum.
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Old 15th August 2013, 19:07   #30
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@Flat-Out, I think periodic maintenance and regular inspection should be treated differently.

You have cited as proof of your doctrine something which is part of regular inspection. By that logic every owner would be expected to check the underbody, steering linkages, suspension, engine belts, spark plugs, mountings, battery voltages every now and then. This is a highly subjective topic. If you own a Jeep, you probably do this every time you want to drive out. If you own a modern hatch, you may not even know where's the timing belt, or whether your car has one.

Here again the manufacturer usually specifies at each interval what parts or liquids should be replaced and what parts should inspected and 'changed or repaired if necessary'. Why is this not sufficient? As a consumer I expect the service centre to follow the inspection religiously, but not at half the prescribed intervals.
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